Monarch 10EE Spindle Bearings
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    Default Monarch 10EE Spindle Bearings

    ... The rear set.

    I have two adverse conditions in my 10EE spindle at the moment.

    The first, is that when grabbing the spindle tail and attempting to deflect the spindle, I can read .001" of deflection on a proper test bar, 12" out from spindle nose, using a .00005" indicator. ( also used a .0001" indicator )

    The second, is that there is a slight "tight" spot in the spindle when rotating it by hand to assess the test bar's runout.

    I believe I have traced both conditions back to the rear bearing set. The front bearing set seems to be okay at the moment. I have found that I can relieve the tight spot by loosening or removing the rear-most bolt of the bearing retainer plate on the rear of the spindle. ( the one at the Nine'o'clock position when looking directly at it. )

    This is a Round Dial 10EE. Looking for some heads-ups in preparation of digging in to replace the rear bearing set. The wisdom of previous experience is appreciated. I have tried searching. The signal to noise ratio leaves me with little good information able to be found through searches. Hence, my asking here, now.

    Thanks.

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    Hi Zahnrad, I think the tight spot is the first problem to solve. my first thought would be a bent spindle... Did you check the spindle for runout when you had it out? Something in the bearing could also cause a tight spot, or too much preload. I assume you tightened the spindle bolts at the front, what about the set screw that locks the front bearing cartridge and how tight is the castellated nut? Did you clean the bearings in an ultrasonic cleaner prior to reassembly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    Hi Zahnrad, I think the tight spot is the first problem to solve. my first thought would be a bent spindle... Did you check the spindle for runout when you had it out? Something in the bearing could also cause a tight spot, or too much preload. I assume you tightened the spindle bolts at the front, what about the set screw that locks the front bearing cartridge and how tight is the castellated nut? Did you clean the bearings in an ultrasonic cleaner prior to reassembly?
    I did not check the spindle for runout while it was out. ( dammit ) That said, I am prone to believe it is either in the bearing or the retaining plate assembly just from the way it is acting and the fact that loosening that one bolt frees it up. I am going to pull the plate and sleeve, but want to be able to check the bearings out of the headstock as well so am looking for info on that from those in the know.

    The front bearing retaining screw is lightly engaged, but it acts the same with it removed, as well.

    No, neither set of bearings was cleaned prior to reassembly. The front ones were left in place and the whole assembly dropped into a new plastic bag and sealed immediately. The rears were left in the head.

    The castellated nut behind the front bearing set is tight. I thought to see if it was loose since the one front bearing had moved a little during reinstallation but it appears fairly tight. I did consider trying to tighten it a little and see if that helped, but am not sure how just yet... I am thinking that it might be wise to loosen the front bearing plate ( nose ) a little before doing so to give the stack somewhere to tighten up against... Thoughts? Advice?

    I will place an indicator on the spindle tail and see if there is any run out. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    ... The rear set.

    I have two adverse conditions in my 10EE spindle at the moment.

    The first, is that when grabbing the spindle tail and attempting to deflect the spindle, I can read .001" of deflection on a proper test bar, 12" out from spindle nose, using a .00005" indicator. ( also used a .0001" indicator )

    The second, is that there is a slight "tight" spot in the spindle when rotating it by hand to assess the test bar's runout.

    I believe I have traced both conditions back to the rear bearing set. The front bearing set seems to be okay at the moment. I have found that I can relieve the tight spot by loosening or removing the rear-most bolt of the bearing retainer plate on the rear of the spindle. ( the one at the Nine'o'clock position when looking directly at it. )

    This is a Round Dial 10EE. Looking for some heads-ups in preparation of digging in to replace the rear bearing set. The wisdom of previous experience is appreciated. I have tried searching. The signal to noise ratio leaves me with little good information able to be found through searches. Hence, my asking here, now.

    Thanks.
    Three things, then.

    First, view Trboatworks thread on his potentially 'bent' Hendey T&G spindle. Not identical to a 10EE, but the apparent symptom was close, so the solution may be as well.

    Second - I have another coupla weeks of chasing 'Estate' filings, but then am back to what may be the same class of problem on my own 10EE.

    In this case, early checks with an indicator run on the tapered shoulder of a new Stark #12 Jarno DC showed the spindle rotation printing a "Dee" shape, not a tight spot [1]. I only recently acquired one of Brian Miller's test bars, and confirmed this on a straight cylindrical surface.

    My suspicion is damaged bearing or race. Also that if my preload was greater, I'd have the tight spot, or of yours were lesser, you'd see the "Dee". "Shape' as-in hand-graphed Polar Coordinates recording the deviation ever' so many degrees as one goes 'round the circle, not just as TOTAL Indicated Runout.

    Not yet certain it is outer race, in which case the flat of the Dee would be stationary, ELSE inner race, fixed w/r spindle, ELSE caged rolling-element damage, in which case it should precess as the spindle rotates.

    My second 10EE round-dial should arrive this Saturday.

    Same tests are planned mid-july.

    More info as I have more.

    Bill

    [1] Swiss tenths & half-tenths indicators, plus a vintage ten-millionths Hamilton.

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    Just advice, the rear bearings are highly suspect from your narrative and answers on your 70+ year old machine. They are not expensive at all compared to the nose end uber bearings, why not just replace them?

    Several old threads on this forum address this, similar problems have happened to others and were corrected by new rear bearings. They seem to crap out before the real bearings do so in a maintained machine.

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    The rear is a single bearing, not a set.

    Some conjecture on my part is that the original rear bearing is no longer made in the specifications Monarch bought them as, but generic ones seem to work fine.

    Back in the day when these round dials were made you could buy double row angular contact bearings with inbuilt preload. You cannot get them these days or as I read somewhere, unobtainable since about the 1950's.

    You will have to replace with just a good quality generic.

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    Okay, boys. Here's what I found when I came in early this morning to dicker around with this.

    First, put an indicator on the rear spindle tail. No matter how you slice it, there is .001" perceivable runout, there.

    I removed the rear plate, completely and indicated the thrust washer/spacer(?) in the ground groove that is machined in it. ( the part that rides on the spindle itself and inside the retaining plate )

    Holy Egregious Eccentricity, Batman!

    Somewhere around .030" of runout. Basically too much for my .0001" indicator to tell me about, save to scream bloody hell while engaged. After some dickering about, I decided to remove the thrust washer and inspect it, suspecting that either something got caught in it while pressing the spindle through, or I burred it up during same.

    The primary culprit appears not to have been my work, but several prior events that left scores and dings/burrs in it. ( most apparently from the keyways on the spindle having burrs, themselves ) So, I took some time with an ID scraper ( old HSS Grobet scrapers ) and worked out the burrs and high spots, cleaned it up with some mild paper and reinstalled it.

    The secondary culprit was that I did not realize that this has to be loaded upon to "set" the bearing. ( stupid as that may sound, I was simply ignorant about what goes on back there ) So, I took some time to lightly load it by tapping it into engagement with a brass drift.

    This took out most of the deflection I was seeing, and the spindle does spring back to place for the most part. It does loosen back up after a number of tests since the locking collar and pulley are not in place to keep the bearing loaded, but tapping it back into place brings everything back to acceptable again.

    As well, with the eccentricity and high spots removed from the thrust washer, the tight spot is gone and everything feels very smooth.

    So, I am fairly satisfied with everything. Having read more about the rear bearing, and having it pointed out here that it is but one single, I am going to replace it, simply out of precaution. I am "here" right now, and having come this far it does not seem anything but foolish not to.

    ( EDIT )

    Is it possible to get this bearing out without pulling the spindle again? I am really loathe to do all of that even one more time.

    ( /EDIT )

    Thank you for the input, gentlemen. I do appreciate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Thank you for the input, gentlemen. I do appreciate it.
    And thank YOU for the feedback!

    "One hand washes the other", so that same area will now become be the first place I look.

    Bill

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    Well, I guess I should update this thread...

    Life got in the way. Actually, the shop got in the way. Things took off and my "spare" time became as common as real life sightings of quarks by common folk. I had scraped a bit, here and there, but never enough time to make any real progress. I finally had enough and forced the issue by calling in some assistance. Long story short, after all the scraping, and having the bed so sweetly ground, it does indeed turn out that the spindle bearings are toast.

    I was pretty upset. Having come all this way, only to result in this, knowing full well that the prospects for spindle bearings are not exactly wonderful. I briefly considered cutting my losses and either parting it out or scrapping it when I decided to take a step back, take a breath, and poke around a little bit to maybe evaluate just what my options are at this point. Took an evening researching the bearing numbers, checking stock at various outlets, etc... and that's when it happened. Google reminded me that Ten years ago someone on this forum posted about a spare set of bearings that they had. Their lathe was in very nice shape, and they wouldn't be using them. Still, they kept them on the shelf, just in case.

    Fast forward Ten years, to four days ago. After reading that again all these years later, I had to be curious because I am actually mildly acquainted with the person and we interact from time to time. So, I decided to take a chance and write the man. I'll skip the boring back and forth and get right to the point that brings us to right now. After some mild back and forth, I now have a set of Brand new, still in the box, original spindle bearings for our 10EE.

    I still need to source a rear spindle bearing, but am so happy that we are finally able to get to the business of getting the spindle bearings replaced and scrape the head stock for alignment. Won't be too long now before we finally have the old girl back in the shop and back to work.

    Now I just need to find a 4K speedo and pulley... ( probably end up having to make the pulley )

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    Great to hear and happy for you! Do you mind sharing the bearing numbers and the sizes? I want to compare them with the ones on the CVA 1A. Thanks!

    Daniel

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    Hi, D!

    See if this helps -

    46568269_1847398385358761_1033594904792194372_n.jpg

    46635530_348618715688869_6944980947090577659_n.jpg

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    Yes, thanks for those numbers! If I understand, these are not made anymore. I will need to check the runout on my spindle to compare with yours!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    after all the scraping, and having the bed so sweetly ground, it does indeed turn out that the spindle bearings are toast.
    I can't believe you really did it in that sequence. Checking the bearings doesn't need even belts, power, the HS on the lathe, nor even the the spindle IN the HS.

    Admit it.. you did the bed FIRST to force yourself to source new bearings!



    Now I just need to find a 4K speedo and pulley... ( probably end up having to make the pulley )
    I have only 2500 RPM ones, but MAY have a spare set of the mechanical drivetrain and that MAY be the same. You'll have a better idea what shape yours are in as you re-do the spindle.

    Marine-Diesel tachos with appropriate full-scale range are "out there", NOS and can give you either electrical drive or electronic drive even more flexibly than mechanical - which are also available.

    A larger dial, relocated to better line-of-sight as-in alongside or integral with a DRO might be welcome?

    Adding a load-meter is not hard, either - DC drive OR VFD the easiest of all. Parker-SSD drive have an output for it right on the terminal strip.

    As to pulleys - BEST to make new, actually. Most I have seen, my own two plus part-outs, are rather well-worn. They were only light metal when they should have been CI for longevity.

    Tempting to convert to PolyVee if one had to make new, anyway. ISTR at least one PM member has done that arredy.

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    I'm on fumes lately and too much bearing info overload. Can someone please clarify exactly WHAT the rear bearing on the tail of the spindle is? I have lit that says 7210 and lit that says 5210. Trying to find each shows a range from $30.00 to $600.00. Huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    I'm on fumes lately and too much bearing info overload. Can someone please clarify exactly WHAT the rear bearing on the tail of the spindle is? I have lit that says 7210 and lit that says 5210. Trying to find each shows a range from $30.00 to $600.00. Huh?
    "New Departure 5210" on the set here (round-dial MG era) that is out of the lathe.

    Other two are also round-dial MG era, but NOT out where I can get a flashlight or eyeball onto them. Yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    "New Departure 5210" on the set here (round-dial MG era) that is out of the lathe.
    Other two are also round-dial MG era, but NOT out where I can get a flashlight or eyeball onto them. Yet.
    Yah, M/G Round Dial. Danke. Unlikely to find a ND branded 5210, anyone know if all 5210's are created equal? SKF, Fafnir, Timken, et al are all abounding. But with such a swing in prices, I've no real idea what is what.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Yah, M/G Round Dial. Danke. Unlikely to find a ND branded 5210, anyone know if all 5210's are created equal? SKF, Fafnir, Timken, et al are all abounding. But with such a swing in prices, I've no real idea what is what.
    They've "gained" suffixes along with other makers over the years. I presume you've already seen prior threads, including:

    10EE spindle rear bearing replacement study, old style double row angular

    As-of just now, ABF's online store in the Nederlands at least list full specs, eg: "standard precision" and such on a 5210"ZZ":

    521ZZ NDH New Departure Hyatt • ABF Store

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    You can not buy the rear bearing in the configuration Monarch originally ordered.

    However if you really want to bring it back to spec, the rear bearing retainer on the square dials is simply an extended version so you can fit back to back angular contacts in there.

    You could possibly make a new rear retainer if you wanted to convert to angular contacts like the square dial. You would be the first to do it though that I know of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RC99 View Post
    You can not buy the rear bearing in the configuration Monarch originally ordered.

    However if you really want to bring it back to spec, the rear bearing retainer on the square dials is simply an extended version so you can fit back to back angular contacts in there.

    You could possibly make a new rear retainer if you wanted to convert to angular contacts like the square dial. You would be the first to do it though that I know of.
    It may be preference, not hard-edge "will not", but ISTR Monarch Lathe doesn't even ordinarily rebuild round-dial era 10EE, only square-dial.

    Otherwise, I'd guess that THEY would have already done this? One could ask a quote and see what they have to offer.

    Having still-available bearings modified does seem to be within their resource set - costs according.

    Reducing risk of gambling wrong might be worth a bit more spend? Not as if these were consumables nor even short-lived.

    Such a "gamble" might include these, seals then pulled?

    Item # 521-2NS, Double Row Angular Contact Ball Bearings - Two Contact Seals (2NS) On Nachi America, Inc.

    https://www.nachi-fujikoshi.co.jp/en...df/199-202.pdf

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    Just to update the thread, although I am not sure why...

    We have been too busy in the shop for me to do much of anything with the 10EE. Having acquired the bearings, I had someone help me by getting the spindle bearings taken care of. Meaning - pull the spindle and get everything ready.

    Well... things have gone from the original bad to worse, and now sunk rapidly to dismal and disgusting. It would seem that upon reflection, this lathe should never have been purchased, much less sold, given what has been done to achieve some modicum of functionality. I'm quite pissed at myself for getting happy feet for having pounced upon it in ignorance.

    Learn the lesson.

    Long story, short - Spindle is out. And it's effed. I do not know how I missed it, but it has obviously been chromed and ground in the past. Along with that, it also is dinged on the rear face of the nose, where the bearings sit upon it. Bearing had been spinning, and is galled up slightly. Enough to "wipe" the writing.

    I'm so effing hot about this I am ready to scrap the whole deal. I may sell the bed and various bit in effort to recoup some of the expenditure at this point. Or, I may suck it up and plod along to the finish line, beginning with a spindle grind. too pissed to think about it right now and there is plenty to keep my mind preoccupied for the near future, anyway.


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