Monarch 10EE Spindle Bearings

... The rear set.

I have two adverse conditions in my 10EE spindle at the moment.

The first, is that when grabbing the spindle tail and attempting to deflect the spindle, I can read .001" of deflection on a proper test bar, 12" out from spindle nose, using a .00005" indicator. ( also used a .0001" indicator )

The second, is that there is a slight "tight" spot in the spindle when rotating it by hand to assess the test bar's runout.

I believe I have traced both conditions back to the rear bearing set. The front bearing set seems to be okay at the moment. I have found that I can relieve the tight spot by loosening or removing the rear-most bolt of the bearing retainer plate on the rear of the spindle. ( the one at the Nine'o'clock position when looking directly at it. )

This is a Round Dial 10EE. Looking for some heads-ups in preparation of digging in to replace the rear bearing set. The wisdom of previous experience is appreciated. I have tried searching. The signal to noise ratio leaves me with little good information able to be found through searches. Hence, my asking here, now.

Thanks.

Hi Zahnrad, I think the tight spot is the first problem to solve. my first thought would be a bent spindle... Did you check the spindle for runout when you had it out? Something in the bearing could also cause a tight spot, or too much preload. I assume you tightened the spindle bolts at the front, what about the set screw that locks the front bearing cartridge and how tight is the castellated nut? Did you clean the bearings in an ultrasonic cleaner prior to reassembly?

rimcanyon said:

Hi Zahnrad, I think the tight spot is the first problem to solve. my first thought would be a bent spindle... Did you check the spindle for runout when you had it out? Something in the bearing could also cause a tight spot, or too much preload. I assume you tightened the spindle bolts at the front, what about the set screw that locks the front bearing cartridge and how tight is the castellated nut? Did you clean the bearings in an ultrasonic cleaner prior to reassembly?

Click to expand...

I did not check the spindle for runout while it was out. ( dammit ) That said, I am prone to believe it is either in the bearing or the retaining plate assembly just from the way it is acting and the fact that loosening that one bolt frees it up. I am going to pull the plate and sleeve, but want to be able to check the bearings out of the headstock as well so am looking for info on that from those in the know.

The front bearing retaining screw is lightly engaged, but it acts the same with it removed, as well.

No, neither set of bearings was cleaned prior to reassembly. The front ones were left in place and the whole assembly dropped into a new plastic bag and sealed immediately. The rears were left in the head.

The castellated nut behind the front bearing set is tight. I thought to see if it was loose since the one front bearing had moved a little during reinstallation but it appears fairly tight. I did consider trying to tighten it a little and see if that helped, but am not sure how just yet... I am thinking that it might be wise to loosen the front bearing plate ( nose ) a little before doing so to give the stack somewhere to tighten up against... Thoughts? Advice?

I will place an indicator on the spindle tail and see if there is any run out. Thanks.

Zahnrad Kopf said:

... The rear set.

I have two adverse conditions in my 10EE spindle at the moment.

The first, is that when grabbing the spindle tail and attempting to deflect the spindle, I can read .001" of deflection on a proper test bar, 12" out from spindle nose, using a .00005" indicator. ( also used a .0001" indicator )

The second, is that there is a slight "tight" spot in the spindle when rotating it by hand to assess the test bar's runout.

I believe I have traced both conditions back to the rear bearing set. The front bearing set seems to be okay at the moment. I have found that I can relieve the tight spot by loosening or removing the rear-most bolt of the bearing retainer plate on the rear of the spindle. ( the one at the Nine'o'clock position when looking directly at it. )

This is a Round Dial 10EE. Looking for some heads-ups in preparation of digging in to replace the rear bearing set. The wisdom of previous experience is appreciated. I have tried searching. The signal to noise ratio leaves me with little good information able to be found through searches. Hence, my asking here, now.

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Three things, then.

First, view Trboatworks thread on his potentially 'bent' Hendey T&G spindle. Not identical to a 10EE, but the apparent symptom was close, so the solution may be as well.

Second - I have another coupla weeks of chasing 'Estate' filings, but then am back to what may be the same class of problem on my own 10EE.

In this case, early checks with an indicator run on the tapered shoulder of a new Stark #12 Jarno DC showed the spindle rotation printing a "Dee" shape, not a tight spot [1]. I only recently acquired one of Brian Miller's test bars, and confirmed this on a straight cylindrical surface.

My suspicion is damaged bearing or race. Also that if my preload was greater, I'd have the tight spot, or of yours were lesser, you'd see the "Dee". "Shape' as-in hand-graphed Polar Coordinates recording the deviation ever' so many degrees as one goes 'round the circle, not just as TOTAL Indicated Runout.

Not yet certain it is outer race, in which case the flat of the Dee would be stationary, ELSE inner race, fixed w/r spindle, ELSE caged rolling-element damage, in which case it should precess as the spindle rotates.

My second 10EE round-dial should arrive this Saturday.

Same tests are planned mid-july.

More info as I have more.

Bill

[1] Swiss tenths & half-tenths indicators, plus a vintage ten-millionths Hamilton.

Just advice, the rear bearings are highly suspect from your narrative and answers on your 70+ year old machine. They are not expensive at all compared to the nose end uber bearings, why not just replace them?

Several old threads on this forum address this, similar problems have happened to others and were corrected by new rear bearings. They seem to crap out before the real bearings do so in a maintained machine.

The rear is a single bearing, not a set.

Some conjecture on my part is that the original rear bearing is no longer made in the specifications Monarch bought them as, but generic ones seem to work fine.

Back in the day when these round dials were made you could buy double row angular contact bearings with inbuilt preload. You cannot get them these days or as I read somewhere, unobtainable since about the 1950's.

You will have to replace with just a good quality generic.

Okay, boys. Here's what I found when I came in early this morning to dicker around with this.

First, put an indicator on the rear spindle tail. No matter how you slice it, there is .001" perceivable runout, there.

I removed the rear plate, completely and indicated the thrust washer/spacer(?) in the ground groove that is machined in it. ( the part that rides on the spindle itself and inside the retaining plate )

Holy Egregious Eccentricity, Batman!

Somewhere around .030" of runout. Basically too much for my .0001" indicator to tell me about, save to scream bloody hell while engaged. After some dickering about, I decided to remove the thrust washer and inspect it, suspecting that either something got caught in it while pressing the spindle through, or I burred it up during same.

The primary culprit appears not to have been my work, but several prior events that left scores and dings/burrs in it. ( most apparently from the keyways on the spindle having burrs, themselves ) So, I took some time with an ID scraper ( old HSS Grobet scrapers ) and worked out the burrs and high spots, cleaned it up with some mild paper and reinstalled it.

The secondary culprit was that I did not realize that this has to be loaded upon to "set" the bearing. ( stupid as that may sound, I was simply ignorant about what goes on back there ) So, I took some time to lightly load it by tapping it into engagement with a brass drift.

This took out most of the deflection I was seeing, and the spindle does spring back to place for the most part. It does loosen back up after a number of tests since the locking collar and pulley are not in place to keep the bearing loaded, but tapping it back into place brings everything back to acceptable again.

As well, with the eccentricity and high spots removed from the thrust washer, the tight spot is gone and everything feels very smooth.

So, I am fairly satisfied with everything. Having read more about the rear bearing, and having it pointed out here that it is but one single, I am going to replace it, simply out of precaution. I am "here" right now, and having come this far it does not seem anything but foolish not to.

( EDIT )

Is it possible to get this bearing out without pulling the spindle again? I am really loathe to do all of that even one more time.

( /EDIT )

Thank you for the input, gentlemen. I do appreciate it.

Zahnrad Kopf said:

Thank you for the input, gentlemen. I do appreciate it.

Click to expand...

And thank YOU for the feedback!

"One hand washes the other", so that same area will now become be the first place I look.

Bill

Well, I guess I should update this thread...

Life got in the way. Actually, the shop got in the way. Things took off and my "spare" time became as common as real life sightings of quarks by common folk. I had scraped a bit, here and there, but never enough time to make any real progress. I finally had enough and forced the issue by calling in some assistance. Long story short, after all the scraping, and having the bed so sweetly ground, it does indeed turn out that the spindle bearings are toast.

I was pretty upset. Having come all this way, only to result in this, knowing full well that the prospects for spindle bearings are not exactly wonderful. I briefly considered cutting my losses and either parting it out or scrapping it when I decided to take a step back, take a breath, and poke around a little bit to maybe evaluate just what my options are at this point. Took an evening researching the bearing numbers, checking stock at various outlets, etc... and that's when it happened. Google reminded me that Ten years ago someone on this forum posted about a spare set of bearings that they had. Their lathe was in very nice shape, and they wouldn't be using them. Still, they kept them on the shelf, just in case.

Fast forward Ten years, to four days ago. After reading that again all these years later, I had to be curious because I am actually mildly acquainted with the person and we interact from time to time. So, I decided to take a chance and write the man. I'll skip the boring back and forth and get right to the point that brings us to right now. After some mild back and forth, I now have a set of Brand new, still in the box, original spindle bearings for our 10EE.

I still need to source a rear spindle bearing, but am so happy that we are finally able to get to the business of getting the spindle bearings replaced and scrape the head stock for alignment. Won't be too long now before we finally have the old girl back in the shop and back to work.

Now I just need to find a 4K speedo and pulley... ( probably end up having to make the pulley )

Great to hear and happy for you! Do you mind sharing the bearing numbers and the sizes? I want to compare them with the ones on the CVA 1A. Thanks!

Daniel

Hi, D!

See if this helps -

Yes, thanks for those numbers! If I understand, these are not made anymore. I will need to check the runout on my spindle to compare with yours!

I'm on fumes lately and too much bearing info overload. Can someone please clarify exactly WHAT the rear bearing on the tail of the spindle is? I have lit that says 7210 and lit that says 5210. Trying to find each shows a range from $30.00 to $600.00. Huh?

thermite said:

"New Departure 5210" on the set here (round-dial MG era) that is out of the lathe.
Other two are also round-dial MG era, but NOT out where I can get a flashlight or eyeball onto them. Yet.

Click to expand...

Yah, M/G Round Dial. Danke. Unlikely to find a ND branded 5210, anyone know if all 5210's are created equal? SKF, Fafnir, Timken, et al are all abounding. But with such a swing in prices, I've no real idea what is what.

You can not buy the rear bearing in the configuration Monarch originally ordered.

However if you really want to bring it back to spec, the rear bearing retainer on the square dials is simply an extended version so you can fit back to back angular contacts in there.

You could possibly make a new rear retainer if you wanted to convert to angular contacts like the square dial. You would be the first to do it though that I know of.

Just to update the thread, although I am not sure why...

We have been too busy in the shop for me to do much of anything with the 10EE. Having acquired the bearings, I had someone help me by getting the spindle bearings taken care of. Meaning - pull the spindle and get everything ready.

Well... things have gone from the original bad to worse, and now sunk rapidly to dismal and disgusting. It would seem that upon reflection, this lathe should never have been purchased, much less sold, given what has been done to achieve some modicum of functionality. I'm quite pissed at myself for getting happy feet for having pounced upon it in ignorance.

Learn the lesson.

Long story, short - Spindle is out. And it's effed. I do not know how I missed it, but it has obviously been chromed and ground in the past. Along with that, it also is dinged on the rear face of the nose, where the bearings sit upon it. Bearing had been spinning, and is galled up slightly. Enough to "wipe" the writing.

I'm so effing hot about this I am ready to scrap the whole deal. I may sell the bed and various bit in effort to recoup some of the expenditure at this point. Or, I may suck it up and plod along to the finish line, beginning with a spindle grind. too pissed to think about it right now and there is plenty to keep my mind preoccupied for the near future, anyway.

Sorry for Your loss ..
I can feel the pain.

To not castigate yourself .. is it likely you could have seen the error without disassembly.
How.

To not waste the work and bearings ..
could the spindle be lapped ?

Zahnrad Kopf said:

Just to update the thread, although I am not sure why...

We have been too busy in the shop for me to do much of anything with the 10EE. Having acquired the bearings, I had someone help me by getting the spindle bearings taken care of. Meaning - pull the spindle and get everything ready.

Well... things have gone from the original bad to worse, and now sunk rapidly to dismal and disgusting. It would seem that upon reflection, this lathe should never have been purchased, much less sold, given what has been done to achieve some modicum of functionality. I'm quite pissed at myself for getting happy feet for having pounced upon it in ignorance.

Learn the lesson.

Long story, short - Spindle is out. And it's effed. I do not know how I missed it, but it has obviously been chromed and ground in the past. Along with that, it also is dinged on the rear face of the nose, where the bearings sit upon it. Bearing had been spinning, and is galled up slightly. Enough to "wipe" the writing.

I'm so effing hot about this I am ready to scrap the whole deal. I may sell the bed and various bit in effort to recoup some of the expenditure at this point. Or, I may suck it up and plod along to the finish line, beginning with a spindle grind. too pissed to think about it right now and there is plenty to keep my mind preoccupied for the near future, anyway.

Click to expand...

hanermo said:

Sorry for Your loss ..
I can feel the pain.
To not castigate yourself .. is it likely you could have seen the error without disassembly.
How.
To not waste the work and bearings ..
could the spindle be lapped ?

Click to expand...

Frankly, it's a toss up on whether I should have noticed. Once it was pointed out to me, it sticks out like a sore thumb. Up until this point I have had no real reason to suspect that there was anything screwy with the spindle. In fact, we simply concluded the bearings were out from age and wear.

However, I have had the spindle out twice before while working on repairing other things and had I paid a more careful eye I may have noticed what was just pointed out to me.



So, between making all the parts, the gears, having the bed ground, all the scraping that has been done, parts purchased from Monarch, and the Moglice purchased, I have spent more time and money than this lathe will ever be worth. And that makes me sick. I could have waited longer, and paid less, to have a working machine SOONER. This has been going on two years now.

I am seriously on the edge of dumping it. I just hate to leave something unfinished. But at what point does one cut their losses?

Sorry to hear about this, I understand how frustrating it can be.
Might be able to find a decent used spindle, I think monarchist/thermite Bill has one and there are others out there.
I say finish it, you're already mostly there, they are great machines and a good match to your Taft grinder.

Colt45 said:

Sorry to hear about this, I understand how frustrating it can be.
Might be able to find a decent used spindle, I think monarchist/thermite Bill has one and there are others out there.
I say finish it, you're already mostly there, they are great machines and a good match to your Taft grinder.

Click to expand...

Yes, Sir. I bet you do, actually. I cannot imagine doing this for two. You have my respects. Still, for what I have seen spindles offered up for ( monetarily ) I very sincerely have to question the value of entertaining as much, to be honest.

Strictly monetarily, I've already put enough to have bought a CHERRY example, by now. That's really chapping my arse at the moment. ( Firmly my fault ) Now to consider adding yet another spindle? And it won't end there. I still have to machine out the saddle and Moglice it. Truth be told, part of what's eating at me is that the work required is very common fare to me. I'd be FINE doing it on my own. But our cylindrical grinder is not large enough to handle the spindle. So that means paying someone else to do it. Frankly, I'm not sure I'm up for the ride. This last 10 days I have had no less than three vendors drop the ball on something that is supposedly firmly in their wheelhouse. All three provided pure crap for our money. So I am a little hesitant to hand over something that it expected to perform in millionths when most of the populace can't seem to handle thousandths. I'm tired of shops half-assing through something and expecting the rest of the world to bend over for the pleasure.

Your points are not lost on me. I'm just tired BSing with this thing. I was hoping to have had it done by now, and moving on to getting a good solid replacement for the Pastaport. ( because they're as rigid as cooked linguini ) Something vertical and horizontal, and having a universal table. Maybe I just need a break from it, but the more I think about it, the more I warm up to dumping it.

Well... if anyone has a GOOD spindle they're looking to off, I guess let me know what you would want for it. I guess I should get some hard numbers in place before shoving her out into traffic...