Monarch 10ee Way and cross slide oiling
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  1. #1
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    Default Monarch 10ee Way and cross slide oiling

    Hello all, thank you for all of the help and getting my EE running again. As many of you suggested, I have decided to look into the oiling system to verify it is functioning properly.

    The cross slide and carriage move freely and nicely, the compound felt quite sticky. So I decided to remove them and give them a good cleaning. The compound came off pretty easily, and looked a little dry. It appears the compound is manually lubed, no auto oilers here.

    The cross slide seemed to be well oiled upon disassembly, with all the components removed I decided to test the oiling, as I could see the orifice clearly.

    I ran the carriage back and fourth many times with out realizing the oil level in the apron was low (staining in the oil glass), once I figured that out I filled the reservoir with fresh Vactra 2 (what I drained out was also very clean). I fear I may have ran the oil pump empty which may require it to be reprimed.

    With the reservoir full I attempted the following:

    1) Manually moved carriage forward and reverse, no oil appeared from cross slide oil (cross slide removed)

    2) With machine powered, I used the feed to traverse the carriage back and fourth using the power feed

    No oil showed, so I believe the next step is to remove the sump from the apron and investigate.

    If the saddle needs to be removed to clear out the lines, is there an alignment process? Is it safe to remove the saddle and leave the apron in place with feed screws in place?

    Thanks,

    Marco

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    you may be able to remove the pump by removing the screws underneath the apron that hold the reservoir in place. I have never done it that way but it may be possible. The saddle just sits on top of the apron. On some models, there is a rubber washer that needs to be in place between the apron and saddle. The washer seals the connection of the oil passageway from the apron to the saddle. On some other models the connection is done by a copper pipe which runs on the outside of the apron. Give me a call and I'll walk you through it. Rich

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    Rich/Ron, thanks for the advice on disassembly of the apron assembly. Before I go any further, I will remove the sump and check/replace the pumps oil filter, hopefully that is the issue. If not I will take the machine down to the bare ways to bench test the pump/apron assembly.

    I think this is the order of operation to take the machine down to the ways:

    1) Remove taper pins from lead screw and feed rod

    2) Loosen and remove support bearing (opposite side), support can be left on lead screw for ease of disassembly. The shafts should slide out, to the right.

    3) Remove carriage bearings and carriage lock

    4) Support apron, remove 10 screws securing it to saddle.

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    Step one complete, it was a tough and slightly scary battle getting the pins out. They both should probably be replaced, as the feed screw pin looks bent.

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    Took some time to remove the sump from , the apron this afternoon, the fresh Vactra I filled her with looked pretty terrible when drained.... The sump had some white slurry that I scooped out, possibly water at one point. There were no signs of rust and the felt oil filter did not look terrible, but I will replace the felt. I purchased some 1/8" thick F10 felt from McMaster Carr.

    I removed the pump and it appears the pump is working, as I move the arm a drop comes out, I tried to push cap it with my finger but it seeps out, doesn't really feel like its "pushing super hard", hard to get a good seal on the tube as it is slightly sharp. But it does appear to be working well.

    I then removed the cap from the oiling manifold under the saddle (sadddle in place), and put a fresh wipe over the inlet in the sump, I got good flow of air and no major junk was pushed out, so I do not believe the mani feed is/was clogged.

    So the next option is to replace the sump with fresh filter, gasket, and vactra and prime the system or continue on the disassembly and verify each line.

    I think I would leave the cap off until I see oil pouring out...Or possibly use a new grease gun filled with Vactra, I could thread it to the oil feed port and pump oil through and see if get it through the way orifices. I may try this... I need to verify what type of thread the oil pump fitting is.

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    Oil pump photos.

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    you can buy a taper pin assortment on ebay. Nice to have. I also suggest a taper pin reamer set. The sets are expensive but sometimes you can find complete sets on ebay used for a reasonable price. Sometimes the tapered holes have rust or burrs after you are pounding on the pins to remove them especially if you are hitting in the wrong direction and the pins mushroom over. The reamers will clean out the hole and maybe you have to insert a larger size pin so it is convenient to have an assortment. There are tapered pins all over the 10ee. Nice to have the reamers and pins on hand.

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    I would do whatever is possible to pre-fill and prime the system before reassembly.
    I believe your lathe is a square dial. The feed rod runs a gear in the apron that has an eccentric that operates an auxiliary lever to run the pump.
    So on a round dial lathe, the running of the hand wheel with it's eccentric on the shaft is the only way for the apron's oil pump to be activated.
    But on a square dial lathe, anytime the feed rod is rotating, the oil pump is pumping.
    So you can pull/push the forward/reverse carriage travel button into the middle neutral position, and run the lathe's feed rod. This will activate the pumping.
    On my recently acquired square dial lathe. [1954, #39355] There is some pumping action visible looking down into the apron. This is with the saddle removed for inspection and cleaning. BUT the pump does not seem to be pumping any oil.. I do not know if the pump is merely dry and needing to be primed,or if a check ball is stuck/glued in place or open or???

    By using diagrams and my own eye-balls I do know that at least my square dial should be pumping whenever the carriage is transferred left to right or the feed rod is running.

    On my round dial when cleaned out the lines and meter-fittings. I put the saddle back on, fastened on the apron, hooked up the oil line. Then I propped up the rear of the carriage, and carefully braced/supported the whole assembly such that the pinion gear did not mesh with the rack on the underside of the bed. The feed rod/threading rod were not yet reattached.

    I then ran the hand wheel for what seemed like forever, but I could see that it was slowly pumping, and eventually all the oil ports in the underside of the saddle, for the front and rear ways started to weep. and one of the oil ports for the cross slide ways. But one was still dry.. I set the carriage/saddle back on the ways, this in my mind would create some resistance to oil flow beyond that from the metering fittings.
    Then I traversed the carriage left and right for a few minutes with a lot of oil coming from the one cross-slide way oil port.. BUT FINALLY the other port 'burped' and out came the Vactra.. It was clean, I had thought that maybe I had a chunk of old dried lube clogging something. But I guess it just needed to be primed and filled..

    So any amount of pre-filling and priming would be my recommendations.. And then running the feed rod with the travel direction knob in neutral.. and let it pump.. until you see Vactra coming out the two cross-slide oil ports.. I would then lift up the back of the saddle and look to see if there is some Vactra on the flat way, and if possible do the same on the front vee-way.

    Then when the lathe is in use, religiously keep an eye on the level of Vactra through the sight glass. If you run it dry, it can be a bugger to reprime.. [shouldn't be, but the volume of the pump is so small that it takes a while to clear the air in the system]

    BTW: your lathe's ways appear to be in EXCELLENT condition, and I'm envious of the nice paint job..

    DualValve

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    I did remove apron sump and the oil pump, and found that the output check valve was stuck open. I think this lathe sat dry for many years and the old lube dried up and held the check ball and spring open.
    I removed the valve and blew it out both directions with various solvents, then submerged the valve in solvent for several hours.. I then blew it out again and verified that it was sealing shut and opening correctly..
    I took a magnifying glass and a light , and closely as possible inspected the check ball for pits or any remaining stuck-on grunge.. but it appeared clean and smooth.
    I reinstalled the valve, cleaned the virtually new inlet filter. I then submerged the pump and filter in Vactra, and started manually pumping it.. soon oil appeared at the pump check valve outlet end..

    These pumps are not high volume, the rod-piston is only ? .200" diameter and the stroke is maybe 1/2" so not much oil gets pushed through the lines with each stroke of the pump. So priming all oil lines and passageways is a must..

    DualValve

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    Didn't get a lot of time with the machine this week, but I did get a chance to use a parts washer at my brother shop. I cleaned all of the castings and parts, then labeled them in put them in an shelf. I am hoping to pull the apron/saddle this week.

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    The battle continues, I was able to remove the saddle, apron, and feed rod/lead screws.

    I started by removing the rear saddle bearings, the fronts will come off with saddle. I then removed the four screws securing the thread dial, although this was not necessary.

    The thread dial can come out with the saddle, but if you do want to remove it first, remove the four screws, this release's a pair of clamp nuts, then remove the set screw pin in the front of the apron. You should be able to push the threading dial up, from below the saddle by pushing on the gear. I am hoping there is no clocking to thread dial for installation or removal (where the indicator lines up to mark with relation to lead screw)...Can any one confirm?

    I placed a piece of plywood across the chip tub and placed a piece of wood and shims to support the apron. I then removed the 10 screws securing the saddle to apron, no pins. Just give the saddle a few tap with a soft dead-blow and it will be free.

    At that point I decided to also remove the apron to clean the backside, this was a little tough. I removed the screws in the end support then fully removed the pins (flat head screws). The hardest part was releasing the lead screw from the bore it was pinned.

    I engaged the half nut into the screw and gave it several taps with a softblow, but the small softblow wasn't doing it...So two taps of a steel mallet with a woodblock to cushion freed it almost instantly. I believe a burr in the lead screw shaft is what made the removal harder than it should have been, i plan on buying a 3/4 hone and kissing it to knock the burrs out.

    The apron and shafts came out all together, the shafts simply pulled out once on the bench.

    This gave me a chance to inspect the machine. The highest wear point of the ways were hidden under the saddle, with a straight edge I could get a .001" shim in, .003" would not go.

    The orifices on the saddle were completely clogged, I attempted to blow air through the main feed line, no go.

    So the plan is to clean the saddle with a parts washer. I will then remove the oiling manifold and attempt to clean the oil lines with guitar strings... The oil lines look like a nightmare to work on...

    I should have all of the parts by Friday as Monarch shipped them today. Once the metering units are replaced, I plan on assembling the apron to the saddle and bench testing the unit to ensure it is properly oiling.


    The saddle bearings are New Departure 39, which is an industry number 629, about $10. Hope this information is helpful.

    I have a few questions I am hoping can be answered.

    1) There are 5 metering valves, is each one dedicated to the 5 orifices I see in the saddle? 2 for cross slide, 2 for v-way on main way, 1 for main flat-way? Is there a half-nut oiling line?

    2) What is the ball of string for in the apron? Oil retention? I also see two oil lines that look like they oil the bearings for the cross and carriage handle, do they have metering valves?

    3) Like I asked above, does the thread dial have clocking?

    4) I also decided I would check the feed rod for straightness, I measured about .012" gap in the center, does this seem okay (I think it does).

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    More photos.

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    More Photos

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    ...

    I have a few questions I am hoping can be answered.

    1) There are 5 metering valves, is each one dedicated to the 5 orifices I see in the saddle? 2 for cross slide, 2 for v-way on main way, 1 for main flat-way? Is there a half-nut oiling line?

    2) What is the ball of string for in the apron? Oil retention? I also see two oil lines that look like they oil the bearings for the cross and carriage handle, do they have metering valves?

    3) Like I asked above, does the thread dial have clocking?

    4) I also decided I would check the feed rod for straightness, I measured about .012" gap in the center, does this seem okay (I think it does).
    1) The five metering units on the apron manifold go to: left and right side of cross slide, rear flat way, front V way and thread dial. If you remove the thread dial you'll see a hole at about 10 O-clock that is fed by one of the lines. Oil for the feed worm and half-nuts/leadscrew are provide from the reservoir in the top of the apron, where you found the string.

    2) The string is for oil retention. The oil lines to the feed clutches do not have metering valves, it's just drip oiling from the reservoir. Ditto for the feed rod and leadscrew.

    3) No, I don't think the thread dial needs to be clocked.

    4) The best way to check the straightness and alignment of feed rod and leadscrew is with the apron off, so it doesn't influence things. Mount the feed rod back in it's bearing, then indicate from the bottom of the flat "hold down" ways under the front ways (near the rack). You can also attach an indicator to the saddle and move it back and forth, rotating the rod as you go. Repeat for the leadscrew, if desired. These test will also tell you if the bearing support is at the correct height.

    Note: the feed rod is actually pretty flexible. Unless you're noticing it dragging somewhere, it's probably straight enough.

    Cal

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    Cal, thank you for the excellent information. I was able to peak into the apron last night, once I removed the string I could see the other oiling orifices. I believe the oil is pumped up the apron, it is then diverts into the string reservoir and the oil manifold in the center of the saddle.

    I was able to take the saddle and all of the components to the hot tank last night, the manifold looks much cleaner! I will begin the disassembly of the oiling system sometime this weekend. I also plan on cleaning the exterior of the saddle and likely removing the half-nuts to clean them properly, there is fair amount of chips on the back side.

    Would it be a good idea to flush the drain the gearbox with kerosene to clean any gunk accumulated over the past 58 years?

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    Hi Marco, i have a correction to make on several of my above posts: The feed rod will run the apron oil pump, but NOT when the forward-reverse knob is in neutral, but only when it is engaged in either forward or neutral.
    With your saddle off of your apron, you can look down in and see the eccentric on the shaft for the traverse wheel, and the eccentric on the carriage feed clutch gear. So the feed clutch gear needs to be turning via the FWD-REV selector.

    Sorry if I created any confusion.

    DualValve

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    Just a thought while you have everything opened up…

    Mine is a ’59 with plenty of miles. I had noticed that even after a good clean-up of the apron oil system the ways would get damp with oil but no “puddle” like others have reported. The pump rod was 3/16” in diameter and the stroke was about .100”, difficult to measure. I figured wear on the eccentric and arm had reduced the pump stroke. The solution I could implement over a weekend was to increase the bore of the pump to 7/32”. I had the reamer and drill rod.

    Now I get a nice “puddle” on the ways and the dial will get a light ring of oil around it after maybe 5 minutes of run time. It’s better to have a little too much rather than not quite enough in the oil department.

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    No worries Cal, I was looking into the apron and I can confirm the pump is cycled anytime the carriage feed is turning.

    Ike, I will also look into the stroke of my pump, thanks for the heads up.

    So I got the manifold off, it was a little tricky but easier than I thought it would be. I started cleaning the oil lines and they all seem to be clean, I used B-12 in a can and compressed air.

    I plumbed out the lines, but cannot figure out why one half of the v-way, closest to operator is not getting and flow. The other half of the v, closer to middle of machine is getting excellent flow when I blow air.

    The order of my oil distribution is as follows (I am calling 1 the furthest port, closest to test plug):

    1) Cross-slide, TS side
    2) Flat way (saddle)
    3) V-way, but only one side (largest line)
    4) Cross-slide, HS side
    5) Cross-slide, dial, screw (small port on saddle, behind casting that holds dial for cross feed)

    I would imagine the oil line is larger because the lines feeds oil to both sides of the v-way, can anyone confirm? I must have an obstruction in the t-fitting that was "sulfered" into the saddle casting. I will continue to try and pick at it with guitar string and air, but man what ever is in there is really lodged.

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    More bad news, on top of one of the v-ways being completely clogged and not budging, I found some pin hole leaks in two of my lines. The v-way line and the cross feed dial.

    Does anyone have advice for replacing the lines? How does one deal with removing the sulfur? Is the copper just pressed into the drilled hole in the saddle at the termination?

    Thanks,

    Marco

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    More bad news, on top of one of the v-ways being completely clogged and not budging, I found some pin hole leaks in two of my lines. The v-way line and the cross feed dial.

    Does anyone have advice for replacing the lines? How does one deal with removing the sulfur? Is the copper just pressed into the drilled hole in the saddle at the termination?

    Thanks,

    Marco
    None of this is "new". It has all been covered, and more than once "right here, on PM". I'll let you read it rather than repeat it, save one personal pref.

    Cupro-Nickel brake lines are easier to bend NICELY than either of Copper or Copper-plated steel and hold up VERY well against corrosives. Part of why they even EXIST - far, FAR more vehicles being crushed than having new brake lines fitted - is to make that rare task easier for an auto-mech-mangler, also faster and more certain of never needing done a second time.

    Might want to take advantage of that?

    Given the total length of line needed is trivial vs even a short-wheelbase motor vehicle, hence so is the premium in cost vs labour.

    "Back in the day" amorphous Sulfur was simply set alite to BURN out. Lovely flame colour. Effect on breathability of surrounding air? NOT so welcome! DAMHIKT!

    Given the combustion by products are a very DAMNED long way from "politically correct", present wiser days, and that the old lines are not worth salvage attempts, digging it out, ruining an already sub-par line - or ALL of them - no big deal.

    It's not all that hard, nor even messy. Only b***dy TEDIOUS.

    There are fittings buried in there, as photos of the work of previous Pilgrims will reveal. New fittings recommended, not just new "olives". They don't cost much.

    One can then "map out" new line lay, length, and routing by trial-fitting lengths of heavy lead-free solder, then duplicating length and shape of curves in the Cupro-nickel tubing.

    NB: Don't go TOO anal. MINOR leaks don't make a damn. Pressure is low, so is the flow, need is fairly forgiving. Any leaked Vactra - so long as 'some" gets delivered - is more likely to end up where useful than harmful. Rocket insemination it was never - just basic lube, rather than dry Iron bones, rubbing.

    Trying to CLEAN metering ports or fossilized tubing is largely a waste of time. Again - NONE of this s**t costs all that much, brand-new, clean as the proverbial whistle, and fully functional.

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