Monarch 10ee Way and cross slide oiling - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Hey guys, I am very grateful for the help and this forum is a great resource. I did spend a few hours researching the line replacement but could not find any threads that actually covered it, most just mentioned how awful of a job it is.

    There is lots of great information on this site, but some of it is pretty well hidden as many of the threads get hijacked with off-topic subjects. I try and do my due diligence before posting and will admit I was feeling pretty intimidated by the idea of replacing these lines last night.

    I'm sure you noticed I have tried to make this thread as helpful and explanative as possible to assist in the future, that is why I listed the steps I took, suggestions, and as many photos as I can take.

    It also seems that no two "10ee" are the same, according to Tim Jones he has never seen a machine with my arrangement of electrical components. My machine also has a three belt drive, which no one else has seen so gar. And when it comes to oiling meters, it appears that most machines order of oiling distribution is different.

    With that being said, I will spend sometime researching to find a thread on the line replacement for some tips. I think i have shown that I have no intention in "Chevy Chase-ing" this machine, which is why it is down to the apron instead of making chips. As an engineer and craftsman, I appreciate the detail of the design and construction of this machine.

    Thanks again for the tips on the solder Thermite, I think I have an old roll in my garage that will work pretty well.

  2. #22
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    New parts from Monarch and eBay, I did some measuring and was able to source all of the thrust bearings with exception of the one that sits in the dial in the cross slide, that appears to a special, which Monarch still sells ($200-ish).

    IA (brand), Model: FT010, cross slide bearing block (taper attachemnt)
    INA (brand) , Model: FT015 compound slide

    img-7144.jpg


    Removing the manifold is easier than it looks, so do not be intimidated, I recommend using a small craftsman wrench you dont mind taking to the grinder, I used a 3/8" for the nuts, and a 10mm for the metering units. My strategy was to remove the first nut, slight bend the line out of the way and remove the 1st metering unit. That will give to room to loosen and remove the nuts on the other four lines. I also found that keeping the manifold secured to the saddle when initially loosening the nuts helped. I would then loosed the manifold-to-saddle when unthreading the lines as it gave a little wiggle space.


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  3. #23
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    The plugged hole and the corroded lines.

    unnamed-1-.jpg
    unnamed.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    Thanks again for the tips on the solder Thermite, I think I have an old roll in my garage that will work pretty well.
    Have to admit I was actually BORN right ignorant. First time I ever had the need as a kid working on the copper fuel line for an old tractor I thot I was ever so clever to use red woolen YARN.

    Looked neat. Until I tried to pick it up and carry the shape over to the bench where the flaring tool was set up in G'Dad's old vise.

    Live and learn.

    Solid plumbing solder at least holds a curve!


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    Well, the desulfuring has gone okay so far. I used a heat gun and a 1/4" chisel to chip away at it, I got some of it to melt out but mostly has been chipped out. I was weary of applying to much heat, the casting stayed "touchably hot" at all times.

    I isolated the two rotten tubes, the smaller (cross slide dial) felt like it was ready to pull from orifice, she came out nicely. Sadly the v-way line was corroded right where the steel line enters the orifice and snapped off write at the surface....Damn it.

    My uncle, who is a professional machinist by trade is coming to check it out tomorrow. I am sure it can either be drilled our or burned out with an EDM. It is in relatively tough place to get to, but I am sure there are people who fix stuff like this for a living..

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    Sadly the v-way line was corroded right where the steel line enters the orifice and snapped off write at the surface....Damn it.

    My uncle, who is a professional machinist by trade is coming to check it out tomorrow. I am sure it can either be drilled our or burned out with an EDM. It is in relatively tough place to get to, but I am sure there are people who fix stuff like this for a living..
    We are they.

    And so you now are as well.

    If you cannot start a conventional tap part way into the broken off stub and just lever it out, use a longer "hub" tap to get clearance. Poor-boy might have to try to catch it on the flutes of a bellhanger drill. Or even jobber length? Dissolving the corrosion byproducts jamming it first is a quite legal cheat.

    We really OLD tool whores have all of the above in the drawer and more. DAMHIKT.

    "EDM" wasn't yet a major player back in the day.

    OTOH, we COULD still easily buy Nitric acid, Nitroglycerine. Or even dynamite by the multiple cases for use around a common dirt-farm.

    Guess "available" technology has kinda gone downhill?


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    If you have the Room and frequently play with this stuff ( machines of need) look around and find a tap disintegrater
    You will thank yourself. Found one covered in dirt, gunk, you name it made a deal cleaned it up a little tinkering works great even had the the servo feed on it dirt cheap. Should have found one years ago!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    We are they.

    And so you now are as well.

    If you cannot start a conventional tap part way into the broken off stub and just lever it out, use a longer "hub" tap to get clearance. Poor-boy might have to try to catch it on the flutes of a bellhanger drill. Or even jobber length? Dissolving the corrosion byproducts jamming it first is a quite legal cheat.

    We really OLD tool whores have all of the above in the drawer and more. DAMHIKT.

    "EDM" wasn't yet a major player back in the day.

    OTOH, we COULD still easily buy Nitric acid, Nitroglycerine. Or even dynamite by the multiple cases for use around a common dirt-farm.

    Guess "available" technology has kinda gone downhill?

    Thermite did your name come from the days of the hardware store dynomite?
    I can remember my dad and uncles as a very young child that had to stay by the truck as they blew up lots of things on the farm. And the stories. Haha one of the neighbors had a Ford model t he still used, was blowing a rock and always turned it off said it never failed to start....well once he laid a charge , packed it with mud lit the too short of fuse and guess what? The t didn’t fire. to short of fuse to run so under the car he went. Never heard bunch of guys laughing so hard as he crawled out from under the car yelling son of a bitch that was loud! Funny we all survived.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    I isolated the two rotten tubes, the smaller (cross slide dial) felt like it was ready to pull from orifice, she came out nicely. Sadly the v-way line was corroded right where the steel line enters the orifice and snapped off write at the surface....Damn it.
    Likely the line was rusted out anyway. I delayed replacing all my lines for the longest time and when I finally replaced with copper I was surprised at how smoothly it went. I'd just rip the rest out clean things up and start stuffing it with copper.

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    SUCCESS! I purchased a tap extension and tapped the tubing with a 6-32 tap, the 5/32 ID is exactly the tap drill size for a 6-32. I then used a piece of 6-32 all thread and a thick washer to assemble a make-shift puller. It took a decent amount of force to remove, but what a relief it was when it gave.

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    img-7185.jpg

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  14. #31
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    I took the leap and decided to replace the cross and compound feed nuts while I had the machine apart, the fit and finish is superb. I purchased these from eBay, but I would imagine the maker is a member of PM.

    img-7173.jpg

    I also though it would be a good idea to measure spindle run-out and I happy to report the run-out is less that .00005".

    img-7175.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbowerks View Post
    Thermite did your name come from the days of the hardware store dynomite?
    Nah. Made it. JR HS & Uni Chem courses. Used it, DIY. Used a lot more of "thermate" - the military packaging.

    Seriously useful for CUTTING steel structures- especially FAILED ones, where it would be dangerous to put men with cutting torches at-risk. Set the thermate charges, back-off, cut the steel from a distance. Yah can do this right in the middle of a populated area - no blast, fly-rock, nor broken windows.

    I can remember my dad and uncles as a very young child that had to stay by the truck as they blew up lots of things on the farm.
    Our main use for dynamite was drainage and sewer lines. Sympathetic detonation used to create 900-foot plus ditches neat as can be or drain a marsh, ox-bow lakes & c. to put a stream bed back where we wanted it and turn the marsh back into tillable crop and pasture land. Two generations, Dad and I had both been instructors, USACE Center & School, Ft. Belvoir.

    Workmate of mine wore a size 15 boot. Saved him from a bad day.

    George, his Dad, and Uncle were blowing stumps, Tidewater area of Virginia. He takes a step, feel sumthin's kinda squash & roll underfoot, then a flapping, both sides of his boot. Freezes, looks down.

    Size 15 had stepped right ON a coiled rattlesnake, pinning the head. Coils of the snake sticking-out each side were trying to flap up against the boot.

    George fuses a lone stick of 60-percent, lights it, drops it, LEAPS for dear life. He was six-foot-six, so for-sure out of the rattler's range.

    Snake hadn't gone far, horizontally. Blast caught him.

    Pity nobody was instrumenting it, as he mought have set an altitude record as beat the Wright brothers at Kitty Hawk! Didn't shred him. There were ony two or three pieces. Rattlers are fair tough, but so is 60-percent commercial dynamite!

  16. #33
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    UPDATE: I was hoping to reuse the main feed line, but pressure testing revealed a series of pin holes. I can imagine the oiling system malfunction likely accelerated the wear on the bed ways.

    Most of terrible-disgusting sulfur has been chipped out and all of the lines have been removed from the saddle casting, I ordered 10 of each fitting along with 12ft of tubing in both sizes (minimum order) from General Bearing in Los Angeles and hope to have the stock in-house by Friday.

    My plan is to make a new thread when this is all said in done detailing all of the parts required for a oiling/feed nut/wipes refresher on the 10EE. There is also a hidden seal in the saddle casting, it is a standard SKF part but I didn't even realize it was there until studying schematic/old threads, it actually looks like ball bearing in the Monarch diagram.

    Some of the bends look like they will be a real PITA, specifically the v-way and main oil feed. I think a thick steel guitar string inside the tubing and some heat should help prevent any kinking.

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    I'm not sure if it will work with small diameter tubing, but I have bent some very tight radius curves in 1/2" and 3/8" copper tubing by packing the inside with very fine sand. The sand did a great job of resisting the tube's attempt to collapse or kink when bent.

    I had to trap the sand inside the tube by plugging one end [ I used a plug of solder] then packing the cut-to-length tubing, then capping the other end. I did all the bending and fitting, then un-soldered the ends and worked the sand out. Washing, blowing etc.
    I don't know if this will work with 5/32" ID tubing or not. might be worth a try.

    Thankfully the tubing on my 10ee's is in good condition. and did not require any replacements. The small diameter tubing looks like a nightmare to make.

    DualValve

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    I think a thick steel guitar string inside the tubing and some heat should help prevent any kinking.
    Might also prevent any OIL flow when yah can't get it OUT?



    There's all sorts of tricks - including filling the tube with low-eutectic metal, making the bend, then melting it back out, but yah don't NEED ANY of that nonsense for this undemanding an application. 50% collapse would still pass all the Vactra needed, and you won't get anywhere near that much collapse.

    Just go ogle "brake line tubing bender". Some are under ten bucks. Even H-F has ones that work. ISTR mine is a "K-D" bought about fifty years ago?

    Or you can make one from a slug of brass, bronze, shiney-wood or even tree-wood.

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    Spent some time cleaning the apron assembly, I taped the open top and sprayed some PurplePower and cleaned all of the grimed and chips that had been collecting over the past 60 years. I then sprayed some carb cleaner to push out any of the residual PP, which when melted some of the paint with collected in the feed gear sump, which houses the two thrust bearings for the worm gear.

    So I decided to remove the gear set, the brass gear uses a set screw and has a slight interference or really tight slip-fit. So I used wood wedges to start the removal and used a puller to remove the gear. Before removing the brass gear, I measured the back of the gear to casting and got about .071" of clearance. This is probably not necessary as the brass gears set screw its on a pocket on its shaft....Monarch put some though into that.

    The worm gear will come out, but you need to pull one of the thrust bearings first, the pull the second thrust bearing and the worm gear will maneuver out.

    I learned a lot more about the machine's lubrication system by taking the apron off of the machine, the feed gear and lead screw both have individual oil sumps.

    The oil is pushed through the top half-nut, and then drips onto the lower nut and lead screw, the excess then drips into the right hand sump of the apron, separate casting/container/sump than oil reservoir/sump for apron gears and ways.

    The feed gears are lubricated via drip from the reservoir in the top of the apron, the oil drips on the gears and collects in the sump which I believe acts like a oil bath for the thrust bearings and gear set. This can be drained via the second plug on the bottom of the apron. I think it would be good practice to fill that reservoir when reassembling the machine, as the oil pushes through the system at such a slow rate it would take years to fill the sump up.

    I will be taking the parts (half nuts, chip cover, screws, bearings) to my brothers shop to bath them in the hot-tank parts cleaner. Hope to have the apron back together by the end of the week.

    In other news, all of the copper plumbing arrived for the oil lines, looking forward to building my tubing skills.

    img-7238.jpg
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    img-7240.jpg

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    Check the key width on the worm - they're prone to wear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Might also prevent any OIL flow when yah can't get it OUT?



    There's all sorts of tricks - including filling the tube with low-eutectic metal, making the bend, then melting it back out, but yah don't NEED ANY of that nonsense for this undemanding an application. 50% collapse would still pass all the Vactra needed, and you won't get anywhere near that much collapse.
    Maybe a dumb question, but there is a lot of durable nylon tubing available now; that is pneumatic rated. Has anyone ever used this to replace their oil lines?

  22. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by IkeHarris View Post
    Just a thought while you have everything opened up…

    Mine is a ’59 with plenty of miles. I had noticed that even after a good clean-up of the apron oil system the ways would get damp with oil but no “puddle” like others have reported. The pump rod was 3/16” in diameter and the stroke was about .100”, difficult to measure. I figured wear on the eccentric and arm had reduced the pump stroke. The solution I could implement over a weekend was to increase the bore of the pump to 7/32”. I had the reamer and drill rod.

    Now I get a nice “puddle” on the ways and the dial will get a light ring of oil around it after maybe 5 minutes of run time. It’s better to have a little too much rather than not quite enough in the oil department.
    the bronze arm that rides on the eccentric is a common repair item. Monarch used to stock them. I have a couple in my parts stash, one of them NOS. Contact me if you are still looking for one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobrakese28 View Post
    More bad news, on top of one of the v-ways being completely clogged and not budging, I found some pin hole leaks in two of my lines. The v-way line and the cross feed dial.

    Does anyone have advice for replacing the lines? How does one deal with removing the sulfur? Is the copper just pressed into the drilled hole in the saddle at the termination?

    Thanks,

    Marco
    its quite easy to repair a section rather than replace the whole line. Round dials often have the main feed line crimped by ham-handed repair, sice people don’t realize the line needs to be unscrewed prior to removing the saddle, since square dials don’t require it. Just take a piece of ¼” brass, center drill it with a #22 drill and you have a solder Union.


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