Monarch 12CK 1942
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  1. #1
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    Default Monarch 12CK 1942

    I am setting up a 12CK in my shop from my dad's shop. I have a lot of MT4 & MT5 tooling and drills. From what I can tell the head stock in the CK is a Jarno #12(short) and the tail stock is MT3. Has anyone bored the headstock out to an MT5(short) and the tail stock to an MT4? If I bored out the whole length of the headstock spindle to 1.5" would that weaken the spindle too much? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gantry View Post
    I am setting up a 12CK in my shop from my dad's shop. I have a lot of MT4 & MT5 tooling and drills. From what I can tell the head stock in the CK is a Jarno #12(short) and the tail stock is MT3. Has anyone bored the headstock out to an MT5(short) and the tail stock to an MT4? If I bored out the whole length of the headstock spindle to 1.5" would that weaken the spindle too much? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
    Ive no direct experience with the monarch, but my DSG 13z is a similar class machine from 1930/40s era. It has a Jarno 13 in the spindle that im thinking of taking out to the next Morse size.
    A lot of folks frown on boring the spindle for various reasons, in a manual ive got for the DSG it actually talks about just that, unless you can find similar info then its a judgement call on your part. Maybe you could find the minimum od of the spindle and and make a decision from there. Monarchs usually aint short of 'Meat' are they
    As long as youre comfortable doing a decent job you could bore/ream the spindle and TS quill tapers, provided they are arnt too hard. MT stuff is easy to come by and will suit your tooling, is also just nice to have fresh sockets. You might want to add a couple of set screws to engage the tang if yours is currently a bare socket.

    Cheers
    D

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    Spindle nose hardened and ground - like all D type Monarch spindles. Good luck on cutting on it with any accuracy - unless set up in a suitable ID grinding machine

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    Yeah, don't do it

    It the taper was chewed maybe.

    just use it

    Better of selling that MT tooling and buying a chuck or the right size tooling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gantry View Post
    I am setting up a 12CK in my shop from my dad's shop. I have a lot of MT4 & MT5 tooling and drills. From what I can tell the head stock in the CK is a Jarno #12(short) and the tail stock is MT3. Has anyone bored the headstock out to an MT5(short) and the tail stock to an MT4? If I bored out the whole length of the headstock spindle to 1.5" would that weaken the spindle too much? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
    WTF? If the tooling is not the proper fit to ANY given machine-tool, just trade, make, or buy tooling that DOES fit.

    Any jarno is about the easiest taper on-planet to do the math for to DIY any sort of adaptor. Same rate of taper, all runs, all sizes. Period. 12CK uses the same adapter as the #12 Jarno of a 10EE. PM has threads on DIY of those.

    Jarno goods are also still made brand-new by several firms. Riten and Stark to name but two.

    A # 3 MT is strong enough to trash a Monarch 12 CK TS. If the wizards of Sidney felt it needed larger, it wudda HAD larger. MOST 10EE had but # 2 MT.

    Bigger is not always better. Usually it just "hangs out" more, eating more scarce daylight and raising stress above what stuff was designed to deal with.

    Yah need a larger spindle bore, just trade for a lathe as left the factory that way.


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    I think there is a theme here.Just leave it alone! Using 3MT to a 4MT adapter in the TS shortens up the 30" quite a bit. The 5C draw tube won't fit through the spindle but I could get a D1-6 5C chuck $s. Is the run out on that type of chuck as good as the Jarno to 5C sleeve ? This lathe is really tight and I am looking forward to doing a lot more accurate work with it. I appreciate the advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gantry View Post
    I think there is a theme here.Just leave it alone! Using 3MT to a 4MT adapter in the TS shortens up the 30" quite a bit. The 5C draw tube won't fit through the spindle but I could get a D1-6 5C chuck $s. Is the run out on that type of chuck as good as the Jarno to 5C sleeve ? This lathe is really tight and I am looking forward to doing a lot more accurate work with it. I appreciate the advice.
    D1-6 on a tight-bore 12CK? I'd have expected D1-3, max D1-4.

    A different 5C drawtube could be made to fit, two-piece, probably. I'd not rate it worth the bother unless you have work that also justifies a GOOD rear-lever closer or air actuator for throughput.

    A(ny) D1-(n) is every bit as accurate as the bore, often more-so, what with the odd ding or burr as inserting "stuff" into the bore hurriedly tends to raise on the leading edge of the resumed taper just back of the relief behind the D1 camlocks.

    A D1 mount also lets you utilize collet systems that will manage pre-cut slugs in OD's far too large for a bar to clear the bore and/or OD's that fill the bore where a drawtube need not be taking up that last skosh of space.

    In the drawers for the tight-spindle-bore 10EE's:

    - 5C on D1-3 key-cranker (H&H Ind.). Another on a "plate mount" (CDCO) for use in a 4-J & "offsets". Bison makes 'em, too - one of my backs is a remaindered forged-steel mount for a Bison SKU.

    - ER 40 on D1-3, spanner-wrench operated. Likewise a second one on a plate-mount.

    - Sjogren "geared wheel" closer on D1-3 (2J collets)

    - Hardinge "front-lever" closer on D1-3 (2J collets also)

    - Rubberflex "rotary hammer" closer 9XX collets on D1-3.

    Plus a Burnerd Multisize that's NOW going to go onto the HBX-360-BC (27"- 30" of long axis daylight) instead. Lovely collet system, but simply eats too much daylight out of the mere 20" max budget of the 10EE.

    IOW a tight spindle bore is "No Big deal".

    BTW.. my Cazeneuve bore IS # 5MT. Both HS & TS.

    Not hongry for much more in the way of nose-art nor tail-tats that I don't already have covered, but others may be. What do you have on #5 MT o so you might want to trade or sell?

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    Get a 4mt tool holder to hold your drills, feed with carriage.

    No, I'd not go about cutting on either of those features on the lathe unless absolutely necessary.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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    Unless you have no other options, I would forget about collets on a 12CK. Spindle rpm just too low.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Unless you have no other options, I would forget about collets on a 12CK. Spindle rpm just too low.

    Tom
    Meah.... how many lathes d'yah have space for? "Run what yah HAVE. Not what you WISH you had."

    Helluva lot of medium-OD rounds as appreciate easy near-enough "perfect" centering that a large collet - ER 40 about the cheapest, if slow-operating - can handle better than a 3-Jaw chuck, and with less marring of the surface.

    5C I don't much even LIKE compared to 2J, but WTH?

    Ain't a collet system on-planet has more options or as cheaply as to not only rounds, but also hex, square, internal expanding, pot and step chucks, affordable emergency collets in steel, brass, nylon, yadda, yadda, as - did I say "cheap"? - or from as many sources as the 5C family, many as can ship "right now".

    So I gots me some 5C. Also hex and square "blocks", 5C spin-indexer...

    Much the same, ONE set of ER 40, another of ER 20 collets. "Problem solvers", be they HS or TS end on a lathe, on the mill, drillpress, or bench & vise that cover the whole lot of ER CHUCKS.. because they are never the FIRST one I reach for.

    2J or Rubberflex, rather..... if not 4-Jaw (2-Jaw, 6-Jaw, Walker magnetic.. faceplates..)

    Plan for "universal" use, the lathe ends up only one of many useful applications for a collet system. Or even a chuck or drill-holder, not-always Jacobs nor Albrecht, either.

    "Tool whore?" ME?

    No Fine Way!

    F*****g OCD Nymphomaniac, rather!


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    As I said, "Unless you have no other options,".

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    As I said, "Unless you have no other options,".

    Tom
    "Options" I am buried under. Good job I didn't also save the receipts for the cost of their acquisition... or I'd also be a bleedin' fire-hazard!



    "Time" nor energy.. not so much these days..

    Must be something in the water?

    I don't seem to be exactly the "lone ranger" on that?


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    Wow, I am new to forums. That is a lot of good information I guess I need to get out of the shop/ranch and see what's going on out there. I will keep my old LeBlond flat belt Babbitt 22" set up for the occasional big stuff and be happy with the 12CK as is. Good point on the speed though. This one is 700rpm top speed. Has anyone sped one up with a pulley change or a vfd? If I run it up to 1400 will it shake apart? I use my 5MT stuff on a 13"x 4' radial drill so I don't have any trading stock. That er40 collet suggestion might be pretty handy for the radial press.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gantry View Post
    Good point on the speed though. This one is 700rpm top speed. Has anyone sped one up with a pulley change or a vfd? If I run it up to 1400 will it shake apart?
    More likely to starve sumthin' of proper lube and run a bearing or three than shake apart, actually. NOISE level might soil yer drawers.

    Monarch was not shy about high RPM. 10EE was standard at 2500, then 4,000, bearings stood it as special up to 6,000 and even above.

    A 12CK is similar size, but entirely different spindle-drive concept - geared-head, not direct belt drive. If Monarch cudda shipped them at even 1500 RPM, they wudda done it, and did do on later, comparable, models. What changed to make it so? Above my pay grade, but positive pumped, HS & geartrain lubrication would be high on my list of BASIC expectations, but not-only.

    That said? I would leave it TF as-is. Helluva long time since it was new, Monarch lathe support is good, but not the same as magical.

    ANY parts at all are hard to find, expensive, both - may even have to be fabbed from a blueprint if they can do it at all.

    Not worth the risk of trashing it to where a whole 'nother used lathe is cheaper than a repair and you have a hunk of scrap-iron to shed as residue, IOW.

    Just adapt to what it does, take yer time and it will do the do, same as it has BEEN doing, long years, already. Decent "flood" coolant, "neat" cutting oil my pref for less gumminess, stink, crevice-corrosion, infrequent use wanting lower juice maintenance most of all, will do yah for HSS/Cobalt tooling work for less hassle than any realistic speed alteration to Carbidize it.

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    I run mine up to 90hz on a vfd with a 3hp motor. Same gearbox as yours. It doesn't mind a bit.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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    Of course a 12CK has D1-6, it is meant to take a chip

    It also has a multi point oil pump in the headstock, should show a regular bloop bloop of oil in the sight glass

    I think mine is oversped through pulleys but never checked it out.

    I bought a Sjogren chuck since the headstock is so long it would take two steps to reach the lever on a collet closer.


    I don't think 1000-1200 rpm would be crazy given the quality of the gears and bearings.

    The levers get loose tho, and the brake might have other ideas, so if doing it with a VFD, braking with that might be a better idea.

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    Its my understanding the 12CK could be purchased with spindle speeds up to 1000 RPM. I wouldn't be too worried with running one that fast by playing with the motor pulley. Mine is setup for 800 RPM top end with a drive shaft speed of 822. However I'd run it as is for a bit and see what you think. With any Monarch this age I would confirm the lube pump and Bijur meters in the headstock are working correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohio Mike View Post
    Its my understanding the 12CK could be purchased with spindle speeds up to 1000 RPM. I wouldn't be too worried with running one that fast by playing with the motor pulley. Mine is setup for 800 RPM top end with a drive shaft speed of 822. However I'd run it as is for a bit and see what you think. With any Monarch this age I would confirm the lube pump and Bijur meters in the headstock are working correctly.
    Pulling the headstock cover is a trivial, if heavy, matter and is definitely worth the effort.

    imag0334.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    Pulling the headstock is a trivial, if heavy, matter and is definitely worth the effort.

    imag0334.jpg
    HOPEFULLY.. you meant "pulling the headstock TOP COVER"... only?

    And, yes. Well-worth it. Any used geared-head.

    Also well-worth the very modest cost to fit a sheet of clear Lexan across it, run it with a strong LED light to-hand - eyeball it all to make CERTAIN lubes are going where they need to go, and nothing is bent, wobbling about, etc.

    A bent shifter fork, my 10EE, held dog clutches mis-positioned.

    WELL worth that sort of inspection, cheap as plastic is. Also wipe rags, of course!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    Pulling the headstock is a trivial, if heavy, matter and is definitely worth the effort.

    imag0334.jpg
    If you meant pulling the head stock, how hard are they to pull?

    Sent from my S61 using Tapatalk


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