Monarch 13EE transformer rectifier
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  1. #1
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    Default Monarch 13EE transformer rectifier

    Hello, this is my first post here. I need some help with my 1952 Monarch 13EE. If I am correct the lathe originally came with an AC motor to drive the spindle but now has a 7.5hp 180vdc GE Kinamatic motor with a 100/200 field. I think the motor is wired for a 200v field. I believe in the 1970's the AC motor was replaced with the DC motor. The problem is there is a transformer that has shorted out that supplies the power through a rectifier to the motor. I never measured the transformer while it still worked so I don't know what the secondary voltage was. It is 240v on the primary side of the transformer. I have tried to figure this out on my own by reading things about how to calculate the voltage output of a rectifier and I mostly understand how it works. I just don't know enough about electrical controls to really know what transformer I need. I know it is not a simple answer either. I have connected straight 240v and disconnect the motor armature and field to test the voltage. I was seeing 215v. From what I have read about rectifiers that voltage is correct without a capacitor. 240v*0.9 gives you 216. So since I was actually seeing around 245v input, with voltage drop from the diodes, that matches what I was seeing. What I think is if the motor was connected, the capacitor would actually be discharging and recharging to peak AC volts so I would be seeing around 340vdc but I don't know that to be true. There is a breadboard with some other resistor, diodes and something I don't know what is is. I don't see how 120vac supply would work because it would be around 167v with a capacitor. I hate asking for help because I can usually figure things out on my own but I have ran out of time and I need this machine running. I have contemplated just using a DC drive but everything works, I just need a new transformer. I have searched online for the same transformer in hopes that I might find some information about what the secondary voltage was but no luck. I have uploaded some pictures. I have tried to make a wire diagram but it didn't turn out that great. Sorry I couldn't get the pictures to rotate properly.[/FONT]
    monarch-13ee.jpgcontrol-cabinet.jpgtransformer.jpgbreadboard.jpgwire-diagram.jpg

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrinox View Post
    now has a 7.5hp 180vdc GE Kinamatic motor with a 100/200 field.
    As a minimum, we need to see the motor dataplate - there may be two, one with the specification, another with the connection diagram - or a full transcription from it.

    We need to know if the ARMATURE DC Drive is working OK and if it has a tachogenerator or resolver on the motor.

    If so, ascertaining what it had then - or needs going forward - for providing Field power.. and control and load regulation when in Field Weakened operating range - gets cheaper, faster, and easier.

    Fastest fix would be to:

    - re-strap the Field for 100 VDC. 180 VDC off 230, raw AC, where 200 was expected would up the RPM, but drop the max available torque. Using a 180 VDC DC Drive, limited to 100 - 115 VDC is easier.

    - disconnect F1, F2 from the existing system.

    - power F1,F2 from the controllable "Armature" output of any small packaged DC Drive (KB, Minarik, etc), in its 240 VAC in, 180 VDC out, mode BUT ... with max Voltage set to 100 VDC on the trimpot. ~ 115 VDC if you'd like faster braking, accel, lower minimum speed with a skosh more torque on-tap.
    (Eg: I run my nominal 115 VDC 10EE Fields @ 140 VDC, max).

    "Hand fly" the Field (5K or 10K linear pot ~ 2 W), as-in:
    -- set @ 100VDC until Armature max speed,
    -- then leave Armature at max and dial-down the Field to not less than "probably".. about 50 VDC ...to run the RPM up in Field Weakened range for the extended speed band. You don't want to exceed the motor dataplate upper RPM figure.

    Crude. But simple. Also cheap. And you can make chips. Real Soon. 'now'.

    More as to restoring to "as-it-was" ... or improving it .. when we have more to work with.

    AFAIK, Monarch themselves never shipped a 180 VDC final-drive motor, so this one has been messed-with.

    Probably more than once. And not by Monarch. Sabina even had some of the motors REWOUND.. from 230 VDC to 440 or so VDC ,the run at 460 VDC and a bit.

    "Tough act to follow", as that roughly doubles the HP, same frame size!

    And is part of why we need to see if YOUR motor dataplate has been overstamped. As those ones were.

    That's not necessarily a "bad" thing. "Rare", "Custom" or "one-off" can be neat stuff.

    But It will need some note-sharing and detective work.

    Hopefully, you have more data?

    Feel free to email me if too large to post, here, and still be readable.

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    Thank you for responding.

    I managed to get a picture of the nameplate. I am trying to keep from removing the motor so I did the best I could to get the picture. If I have to remove the motor then that is what I will do. I can't get the j-box cover off the motor without removing the motor either.

    There were only two tags on the motor. One is the picture I took and the other was a warning label. I didn't find a connection diagram tag on the motor anywhere.

    There are 3 pairs of wire going to the motor. Obviously 2 sets are for the armature and the field but the other pair I am not sure. The wires that I think are running to the field are labeled F1 and F4 at the control cabinet.

    The lathe ran fine when it was running.

    How or where do I find if the motor has a tachogenerator or a resolver?

    I would prefer to either replace the transformer if I can figure out what the voltage output is or was supposed to be, or improve upon what is there.

    vid_20211013_183226295_exported_12797.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrinox View Post
    Thank you for responding.

    I managed to get a picture of the nameplate. I am trying to keep from removing the motor so I did the best I could to get the picture. If I have to remove the motor then that is what I will do. I can't get the j-box cover off the motor without removing the motor either.

    There were only two tags on the motor. One is the picture I took and the other was a warning label. I didn't find a connection diagram tag on the motor anywhere.

    There are 3 pairs of wire going to the motor. Obviously 2 sets are for the armature and the field but the other pair I am not sure. The wires that I think are running to the field are labeled F1 and F4 at the control cabinet.

    The lathe ran fine when it was running.

    How or where do I find if the motor has a tachogenerator or a resolver?

    I would prefer to either replace the transformer if I can figure out what the voltage output is or was supposed to be, or improve upon what is there.

    vid_20211013_183226295_exported_12797.jpg
    Thanks.

    With that added information..

    A) You seem to have inherited a previous-owner - private individual - DIY shop-fab remotoring project.

    OEM Monarch 13EE & 1000EE had more powerful motors run with higher voltage windings, plus one or more means of enhancing load regulation & stability.

    B) 180 VDC motors were/are built for wide-power-band applications. I have several. They are either "Type T (R,X)" and/or "special machine tool duty" with compound windings that feature a series "booster" coil brought out on S1,S2 leads. Your motor has no evidence of such elegance.

    Ergo it seems to be a "vanilla" general-service straight shunt Kinamatic.

    Variable speed? Yes.
    Engineered for uber STABLE speed holding over a wide range? Not so much.

    I cannot ascertain if there is anything useful on the schematic diagram you posted here or not.

    It blurs unreadable before it gets anywhere near large enough to BE readable!

    Send me an email. We both have that PM feature active. Just mouse-over the user login handle, open the "Send Email to" menu.

    Once we have each other's "direct" address, you can try sending me a BIG graphic file that won't get hammered into unreadable enroute.

    Until then, it isn't yet clear how or even IF the function the transformer supports is meant to function ... be managed.. from whence.. by what or whom. All of which actually MATTER.

    Laters

    Bill

    UPDATE: Got the initial contact email just now.. and replied.
    Ready for a graphic of the schematic when you get a round tuit.
    Last edited by thermite; 10-14-2021 at 09:23 AM.

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    UPDATE:

    Per email evening of 15 October, system is running.

    No transformer. Direct off the line, CB sized for approx 50% of max power.

    Still trying to sort out the schematic.

    More when we have more.

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    I have a 1954 machine as far as I know all 13EE were motor generator machines with a 15hp DC spindle motor. You look to have some sort of retrofit. I do not have the electrical knowledge to help but thought you may want to know how it was originally equipped. Mine has all the origanal drive components and was pretty easy to trouble shoot when I got it. It wasn't running for a number of years before I got it. One thing I am missing is the original lube pump in the left most compartment as you view the machine from the front, could you possibly send a pic or maybe see if the assembly has some sort of tag that gives an idea of who manufactured it for monarch. I have always suspected it might be Bijur? Also it looks like you are missing the tee casting connected to the back of the lathe that housed the MG.

    Matt


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