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Monarch 16" CY - help

ajclay

Aluminum
Joined
May 5, 2011
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
I've wanted a lathe for a long time and just purchased a 1946 vintage Monarch 16in CY. Seriral # CY29740.

It has some kind of problem in the gear change box. All the gears look good that I can see, but the lead screw will jump in and out of gear with a fairly loud "clack".

I'm looking for a service manual to try and learn a little about the lathe before I start the operation. I just don't want to go in blind.

Can someone point me and maybe offer some advice.

I'll have to take a couple of photos tomorrow and post them so you can see what I'm working on.

Thanks for the input.

Aj
 
The gearbox is pretty much rock solid and foolproof. All of the shift levers have substantial detents, as in pin engagement. The only one that ever jumped out on me, is the cone rack tumbler, mainly because I had the spindle speed to high for a coarse thread. Fortunately, no damage was done.
What RPM's are you running, what pitch thread?
 
I don't know to be sad or mad at the "backyard operators" that worked on this lathe. It just makes me hurt to look at some areas of it.

The photos will show what I have to work with. I have way more time than money, but I may not live long enough. I'm really not interested in a total restoration; I just want to get it up and going with reliability.

I removed the gear cover on the left and the top gear box cover too. With the lead screw or feedrod engaged and the forward/reverse lever engaged the movement is intermittent. The rod that the forward/reverse lever moves, it "bumps" out of engagement and the gear train on left "clacks". It's enough to feel it when it happens. Naturally it’s more noticeable as the spindle speed increases.

With the makeshift repairs that were made I know something is out of whack. Is it possible for the forward/reverse rod to be out of adjustment because of the handle screw up?

I’m looking for an advice / direction before I just start taking things apart. With all the experience in this forum I’m sure you guys will get me going in the right direction

I’m prepared to do whatever that’s necessary to investigate and repair the problems this old lady has.

I'll upload more photos in the next post.

Thanks, AJ
 

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A few more photos.

Thanks for looking.

AJ
 

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beckly23,
It seemed to happen regardless of spindle speed or thread pitch. Just didn't show up as bad at the slower speeds. The photos will show you where I'm at. Thanks, aj
 
You're going to have to take a look at the single tooth dog clutches in the front lower left side of the headstock. That is where the feed/leadscrew reverse is. It's possible the dogs are worn, allowing the clutch to slip out of engagement. The clutch is designed to be shifted while the spindle is turning, but at fairly low speeds, for threading purposes. Be careful with the headstock cover, it's not light.

Get in touch with Monarch and specifically ask what the gear tooth counts are supposed to be for the end train, and the diametrical pitch of the gears. Those are not the same gears, nor pitch, that I have on mine, but you also have the 1-60 TPI gearbox, whereas mine is the 2-120 TPI. Have the serial number handy. On my CY, the reverse gear(that's the first gear out of the headstock) is 10 DP 25 T.

I've got a schematic of the gearbox in post #11 of this topic;
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/metric-threads-225616/
Harry
 
Harry,

Yep, You hit the nail on the head. Check out the photos...

Those gears only have one dog unlike all the other gears. The photo is the rear gear closest to the left side or rear of the head stock.

It does appear to be rounded off a good bit. Is it the reverse or forward gear? I'd assume it's the forward gear that gets used most of the time.

The hundred dollar question is..... Can the shaft and gears be removed without removing to much out of the head stock?

And the other question.... You think that the area on the gear could be reground back to the original angle? I would think it's suppose to have a couple of degress of angle on it.

Thanks for the help!

Aj
 

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Another member, Macona, had a similar problem on a Series 60. He had to pull the spindle to get to the reverse gears. IRCC, he built the worn sections with weld and remachined or ground the dogs. I think this was 2-4 years ago. Do a search using Macona as the topic starter.
Harry
 
Harry, He said he pulled the spindle 1st on the 60 series before he could get the reverse shaft out. But it's a little different style head stock.

I've rebuilt a bridgeport from top to bottom without a problem because there is so much documentation available. Is there such a thing as a disassembly procedure for the head stock on a CY? Does monarch have that info?

I was looking for a way to drain the oil and couldn't find that. Looks like it has to be sucked out...

I've got a lot to learn... With the forum's help and the price of time I'll get it.

One thing I'll do is document the procedure and take photos.

Thanks, Aj
 
I've wanted a lathe for a long time and just purchased a 1946 vintage Monarch 16in CY. Seriral # CY29740.

I'm looking for a service manual to try and learn a little about the lathe before I start the operation. I just don't want to go in blind.

Aj

Call Monarch 937-492-4111 and tell them you want to purchase manual and parts list for your machine. The one for my '44 CK cost $75. Once you have that and a pretty good idea of what is the problem, call them back and ask to speak with a tech. He give you a lot of information about how to service the machine, and if necessary, can go into the storage vault and retrieve the drawings for that machine.
Tom
 
Tom, I'm going to do that first thing tomorrow. Thanks for the phone number.

I've got to get some real information, that's the only way I'm going to have a chance of making this thing work right again.

I sure would of thought there would of been someone on the forum that's documented a head sock repair, but I haven't really found one. Learning the forum too...

Thanks, Aj
 
Look on the rear of the headstock on the section where the input goes in, on the bottom face near the belt guard you should find a plug for draining the headstock. You won't get all out, there are a few low spots that will have to be sucked out, probably less than a quart.
Harry
 
Harry, that's for that tid-bit of info... I missed it for sure, I'll look again tomorrow.

I called Monarch today and they said in so many words that if I purchase a manual they would give me all the support I needed to repair the lathe. They talked good to say the least. That seems like the best $50.oo I could of ever spent!!

I'll have it Friday and then the work begins... It can't be that hard, but I'm sure it will be time consuming.

Thanks, Aj
 
I got the manual in today and talked to the tech about the spindle removal. He said on a good day it should take about 30 minuets to remove and on a bad day 45. I don't know if I believe it, but it doesn't seem to be that hard.

I'm documenting the task. Taking photos from the start. Only a few things to take loose and it's suppose to slide out. I'm going to knock it out tomorrow when I have a clear head.

I haven't got he price yet, but the tech told me the they offer a repair service on the "reverse clutch gear" from a "good old boy" that they do business with.

In my opinion, if he can do it, I should be able to do the same weld and grind too...

AJ
 
Hi ajclay,

I'm sorry to see that your reverse gear dog clutches are so beat up, but it will be great to have CY spindle removal and replacement well documented in this forum.

While you have the spindle out, it would be a good time to change the filter in the oil pump. It's a serious PITA to remove the pump with the spindle in place:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...y-headstock-oil-pump-removal-question-225195/

The coarse brass screen, fine brass screen and felt filter elements are available from Monarch (Lucas) for $22.

Stan
 
Stan,

After reading all the trouble that it takes to remove the oil pump with the spindle in place, I believe I'd go for spindle removal 1st and then the oil pump.

It took about 1.5 hours to remove the spindle today. I didn't put a mark anywhere on my poor machine inside or out.

I purchased two spanner wrenches from McMaster Carr for the spindle nuts. They only cost about 12.oo each. No other special tools were needed. All the fasteners were easy to get to.

The manual I purchased from Monarch was somewhat helpful, as well as the tech. The problem is that the machines have small differences from one year to the next that may not be in the manual or the tech may not tell about.

As such in my case. As luck would have it, mine is a little different. Not really a big deal, just had to figure out one or two things on the fly.

A guy has to have the right mind set. I wasn't going to let this thing get the best of me, I already had my mind made up that I was going to win the battle. It's just a shaft with a few gears on it, just how hard can it be?

I slipped the gears back in place after the spindle was removed so I wouldn't have any loose parts rolling around. See attached photo. The gears are impressive. The front bearing looked like the day it was installed!

I was really surprised on the amount of trash that was in the headstock. There is no way a guy can clean the bottom of the gear box out with the spindle in place. The couple of low spots were filled with chips and fine pieces of metal. All the big pieces looked like chips from work and not from any gears / parts from inside of the headstock.

I took a siphon sprayer and 5 gals of mineral spirits and washed out the sump. I put a couple of magnets in the low spots to help pick up the big pieces of trash and used a manual suction pump to get the dirty mineral spirits out. I'd spray a little, clean magnets, and suck out the dirty oil. Then, do it again. That's what took all the time. Again, way more trash than expected.

It only took two minutes to remove the oil pump with the spindle out. The screen looked stopped up.

The reverse feed gear dog is worn bad. The clutch is in a little better condition than the gear. I'm going to regrind the gear without any welding to get things back in working condition. With only one point of contact and no indexing to worry about, I'm not going to weld, Just grind.

I'll put together a progressive set of photos the next day or so and a few notes so the next guy won't be intimidated as I was.

Thanks, Aj


[email protected]
 

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Monarch CY Spindle Removal

I put together a quick little outline on how I removed the spindle.... right or wrong, this is what and how I did it.

The gears will have to be repaired and oil pump cleaned up and repaired before I'll be able to re-assemble anything. I'm sure it will take a couple of weeks minimum.

Read over the essay and let me know if something looks grossly wrong. I know I'll have miss spelled words, bad sentences, I'm not the best in writing.

Drop an e-mail if I can be of any assistance. Thanks, Aj

[email protected]

Two type of files. Same info.

http://members.cox.net/ajclay/cyspindleremoval.doc

http://members.cox.net/ajclay/cyspindleremoval.pdf
 
Gear Repair

One more thing. Monarch told me a couple of days ago that they have a guy (local to them) that repairs gears such as mine. Does anyone have a name or a phone number of who that may be?

I'd like to talk to him.

Thanks for the info! AJ
 
Aj,
If you're going to send PM's, make sure that you can recieve them. I was just informed that you elected not to recieve PM's.
In answer to your PM, I don't know who Monarch uses, and I would think it unlikely that they would reveal that information.
You may try asking somebody who does die and mold repair about this.
If you are capable of doing this and have a few doubts, ask on the forum, or you may try your welding supplier.
The welding repairs I had done to the apron drive parts of the SE 60, in ANT, was done by a die and mold guy.
The biggest problem I can see is the type and hardness of the steel, it may, or may not present issues.
Harry
 
Magnet

When I cleaned out the head on my larger Monarch, I put a large hard drive magnet in off to one side. Last year I changed the oil and was surprised how 'hairy' it got in 6 years. No idea were all the iron came from but I was glad I had the magnet in.
 








 
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