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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by DualValve View Post
    Hi Will.
    I have never welded on bronze. I have had some plumbing fittings that seemed to be bronze rather than brass, and certainly not copper. I had to sweat-solder the slip joint for the fitting. That is the extent of my experience with bronze.
    I'm hoping to learn from you what worked and what you learned about adding some metal to make up for the worn areas.

    Did you get your machined parts back from the machine shop?

    DualValve
    Super Bowl Weekend gives me more time in the shop. Nothing terribly dramatic but did get the apron pump rocker welded on the ends to take up wear. Here is what I learned.

    20200202_202148.jpg

    First, don't practice on oil impregnate bronze. I had an old bushing to run tests but discovered very quickly it was oil impregnated. A real mess.

    Second, preheating was a must for my rig. I used a propane torch and my first attempt was popcorn. Understandable... I'm using a Lincoln 200, MIG with 75% argon, 25% CO2. Not proper but my Argon bottle was empty.

    I didn't take pictures since it was nothing to be proud of... I ground it down and started again, adding more preheating. I could run a couple good beads but anything more than that, it wouldn't take. Certainly not how it should be done

    20200202_202010.jpg

    This is after grinding on my second attempt. One small void. I stopped here and did the fork on the other side. This ended up far nicer, I did some flap wheel grinding, then hand filling. Not ideal but it has me back to full stroke with good contact.

    Preheat to sufficient temp was the key for me, and using proper gas, 100% Argon would be much better. Also, I was in a well ventilated area and did my best not to breathe the fumes...

    20200202_202214.jpg

    20200202_204039.jpg
    Last edited by WillWilly; 02-03-2020 at 07:41 AM.

  2. #162
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    Thanks Will.
    I have experience TIG welding old aluminum oil pans from engines built in the teens and 1920's. The old aluminum is quite porous, and I had to heat, clean, heat again to boil out the oil. repeat, until I could not see any more oil rising to the surface.. I'd get a few minutes of welding until another bubble or two of oil would rise from somewhere and contaminate the welding site AGAIN.

    Those jobs are very frustrating. But there are no replacement parts available, and the castings are huge, so difficult and very expensive to reproduce the rough castings.. not to mention the machining needed on the parts..
    So welding a crack is still the best repair method..

    I'm sure your pump and lubrication system will work much better with full stroke of the pump piston.

    DualValve

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  4. #163
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    welding SiBr 655 using the SMAW (MIG) process with 25% CO2? well OF corse it was a mess!! no, preheat shouldn't be needed. if you were using straight argon it wouldn't be a problem without it. might want to burn off the oil, but that's it.

    my preferences would be;
    1) GTAW (TIG) with 655 filler
    2) ox-acetlyne with 655 filler and flux
    3) silver braze with MAPP torch or oxy-acetylene
    4) brazing filler with MAPP torch or oxy-acetlyne
    5)SMAW with brazing rod
    6)GMAW (MIG) with 655 and the PROPER GAS
    ( MIG is last instead of second because of the cost of the spool of bronze and the time to switch spools.)

    as you see, there were a few options to run through before resorting to booger welding with the totally wrong gas, that one I wouldn't even have tried. happy you somehow got it to work!

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  6. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    welding SiBr 655 using the SMAW (MIG) process with 25% CO2? well OF corse it was a mess!! no, preheat shouldn't be needed. if you were using straight argon it wouldn't be a problem without it. might want to burn off the oil, but that's it.

    my preferences would be;
    1) GTAW (TIG) with 655 filler
    2) ox-acetlyne with 655 filler and flux
    3) silver braze with MAPP torch or oxy-acetylene
    4) brazing filler with MAPP torch or oxy-acetlyne
    5)SMAW with brazing rod
    6)GMAW (MIG) with 655 and the PROPER GAS
    ( MIG is last instead of second because of the cost of the spool of bronze and the time to switch spools.)

    as you see, there were a few options to run through before resorting to booger welding with the totally wrong gas, that one I wouldn't even have tried. happy you somehow got it to work!
    I agree, doing it properly would be best. You offered good advise but this is a long list of tools and materials I don't own and doubt I will soon need again. My second option was to send to someone that does this for a living, but I'm stubborn and a great way to learn...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DualValve View Post
    Thanks Will.
    I have experience TIG welding old aluminum oil pans from engines built in the teens and 1920's. The old aluminum is quite porous, and I had to heat, clean, heat again to boil out the oil. repeat, until I could not see any more oil rising to the surface.. I'd get a few minutes of welding until another bubble or two of oil would rise from somewhere and contaminate the welding site AGAIN.

    Those jobs are very frustrating. But there are no replacement parts available, and the castings are huge, so difficult and very expensive to reproduce the rough castings.. not to mention the machining needed on the parts..
    So welding a crack is still the best repair method..

    I'm sure your pump and lubrication system will work much better with full stroke of the pump piston.

    DualValve

    Owning a TIG is on my list. A friend and I are going in together on a new TIG. Still trying to narrow down what unit. Our budget is $1000. I have no doubt we can find a good unit for our amateur needs...

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  9. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillWilly View Post
    I agree, doing it properly would be best. You offered good advise but this is a long list of tools and materials I don't own and doubt I will soon need again. My second option was to send to someone that does this for a living, but I'm stubborn and a great way to learn...
    You could have used the propane torch you have. When I say MAPP torch I’m talking about the yellow can type, 20-30$ would have been a better choice and a pack of brazing rod cheaper too than the spool of bronze, so no, your second option,(propane torch you have), third option, ( Buy a MAPP torch you can use anyway) both with brazing rod and flux (or just get the damn argon bottle refilled if you had one) are all choices you had before sending it out.
    Ok, so you got it done anyway that’s good, don’t make excuses, just sayin!
    “ I just went at it thinking 75/25 would work, it doesn’t, but I somehow got it to stick anyway”

    If you really want to learn by doing, and that’s how I have, you need to be honest with yourself, no one to call you out, “hey you idiot! Why the hell are you doing it that way? You gotta kinda be that person your self..

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    You could have used the propane torch you have. When I say MAPP torch I’m talking about the yellow can type, 20-30$ would have been a better choice and a pack of brazing rod cheaper too than the spool of bronze, so no, your second option,(propane torch you have), third option, ( Buy a MAPP torch you can use anyway) both with brazing rod and flux (or just get the damn argon bottle refilled if you had one) are all choices you had before sending it out.
    Ok, so you got it done anyway that’s good, don’t make excuses, just sayin!
    “ I just went at it thinking 75/25 would work, it doesn’t, but I somehow got it to stick anyway”

    If you really want to learn by doing, and that’s how I have, you need to be honest with yourself, no one to call you out, “hey you idiot! Why the hell are you doing it that way? You gotta kinda be that person your self..
    Point made... I made no excuses and I made it clear, not the way to do it properly. BTW Spool of Bronze wire 0.030", $29. Certainly worth the effort and if I ever need to do again, I'll have the material and get by then have my argon bottle exchanged.

    Thanks again...

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  12. #168
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    My Apro pump is missing the tag. I was interestinv in knowing the brand and info. Anyone have a picture of thier tag on a CY Monarch apron pump?

    20200202_202214.jpg

    The tag on mine was on the side...

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    Hi Will:
    I searched and researched several different AC/DC Tig welders.. I bought an AHP AlphaTig 200x . It has very good reviews, and can be purchased for under $750 delivered.

    What I was NOT expecting was to all but throw away my regular stick welder. This AHP is by far the very best stick welder I have ever used. Smooth, consistent arc, and I'm now stick welding with as small as 1/16" 6013 rod.. I've never had much luck with rod smaller than 3/32" with most other buzz-box stick welders [most I've owned or used were the typical Red-box Lincoln 'Tombstone' 225amp welders..

    Learning TIG welding of aluminum is at times very frustrating. But I manage to get it done.. It would help if my vision was a LOT better.

    I'm pretty much lousy with a MIG.. but can do a nice job with a stick or a torch. The TIG i still a learning process..

    DualValve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DualValve View Post
    Hi Will:
    I searched and researched several different AC/DC Tig welders.. I bought an AHP AlphaTig 200x . It has very good reviews, and can be purchased for under $750 delivered.

    What I was NOT expecting was to all but throw away my regular stick welder. This AHP is by far the very best stick welder I have ever used. Smooth, consistent arc, and I'm now stick welding with as small as 1/16" 6013 rod.. I've never had much luck with rod smaller than 3/32" with most other buzz-box stick welders [most I've owned or used were the typical Red-box Lincoln 'Tombstone' 225amp welders..

    Learning TIG welding of aluminum is at times very frustrating. But I manage to get it done.. It would help if my vision was a LOT better.

    I'm pretty much lousy with a MIG.. but can do a nice job with a stick or a torch. The TIG i still a learning process..

    DualValve.
    I'm in the same boat. My biggest problem is seeing. I have used my Mig for many years, starting as a flux core wire welder, converting to a MIG welding stainless, aluminum (average results), some chro-moly (decent results), sheet metal and now bronze (needs a lot more work)... I never weld anything that is life-safety. I leave that to the professionals.

    I'm a hobbyist at best and though I have ability, perfecting my welding skills generally stops at "that's good enough", hence my previous bronze job.

    I have done some TIG at my job when the millwrights let me play. I'm an Engineer and spent most of my time behind a PC screen. I work closely with our journeyman and have been hammered on creating designs that can be manufactured. I have been looking over the shoulders of very good machinists for most my career and now one the many wannabe's that play in the garage.

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    Another lazy week, piddling with cleaning the plates/tags, and my least favorite job, stripping the paint to original primer... Interesting they are made of lead...

    tag1.jpg

    tag2.jpg

    tag3.jpg

    tag4.jpg

    tag5.jpg

  16. #172
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    My dad was a painter, He claimed that the best paint was lead based. Worked with it all his life, including mixing colors, smoked Camel straights and never did have a problem with either the lead or lung cancer. Can tell your machine was made early in the war do to the bronze nameplate. My Monarch made in 1944 was all aluminum nameplates.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    My dad was a painter, He claimed that the best paint was lead based. Worked with it all his life, including mixing colors, smoked Camel straights and never did have a problem with either the lead or lung cancer. Can tell your machine was made early in the war do to the bronze nameplate. My Monarch made in 1944 was all aluminum nameplates.

    Tom
    Mine was shipped in 1943. The taper attachment has a bronze tag. I believe the thread badge is aluminum but the rest are lead. Now that you mention it, I didn't check if any of the paint is lead based. I'm gloved and masked during stripping and only use hand tools, but mainly for the stripper. I probably should check.

    I imaging aluminum was scarce in the early part of the war but don't know if that is why they made some of the badges from lead.

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    So I have recieved my saddle back from the machinist and I am very happy. Some of you may know of Brian (& Baily) Block (bcbloc02) on Youtube. He spent a great deal of time figuring out the best way to prep the saddle for Rulon 142. You can watch his videos on the work he did here: YouTube

    I'll be posting my progress on Rulon installation... Hope I don't screw this up. Brian has me in good shape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillWilly View Post
    Interesting they are made of lead...
    "Lead"? Who said? You assay it?

    Lead was neither suitable for holding clean-edged shapes where impacts would be unavoidable, nor even cheap.

    AFAIK, the "white metal" wudda been mostly Zinc.

    Could have been ZAMAK, mostly Zinc with Aluminium.

    Zamak - Wikipedia

    It has been around a long time (1929 -> present-day) and isn't really bad stuff, given it was developed specifically to produce clean castings in need of no further working.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    "Lead"? Who said? You assay it?
    I say! The gear selection and information badges are made of soft lead. The density and malubilty make this clear. No, it isn't ideal and thier condition show this. Are they factory installed? Would almost have to be considering the cost and time to reproduce.

    Im sure others can chime in that own simular vintage monarch lathes, but they are lead, or some very exotic material that has the same weight for the given volume...

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillWilly View Post
    I say! The gear selection and information badges are made of soft lead. The density and malubilty make this clear. No, it isn't ideal and thier condition show this. Are they factory installed? Would almost have to be considering the cost and time to reproduce.

    Im sure others can chime in that own simular vintage monarch lathes, but they are lead, or some very exotic material that has the same weight for the given volume...
    Interesting.

    I would not have expected Monarch Machine Tool to have been using Lead - or even a supplier working such alloys - as they tend to cost more than Zinc (or Brass) alloys. MMT had scads of pattern-making and in-house or seriously good close contract support for making all manner of castings. Brass or ZAMAK were no harder for them to do or have done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Interesting.
    - as they tend to cost more than Zinc (or Brass) alloys.
    During 1943, Aluminum was probably hard to come by. During that time, the CY spindle bearing was specified as Class 1 but mine came with a class 3 Timken bearing. Either a downgrade or again, that may be all they had at the time.

    Like any manufacturing during the WWII, there were a great deal of compromises...

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillWilly View Post
    During 1943, Aluminum was probably hard to come by. During that time, the CY spindle bearing was specified as Class 1 but mine came with a class 3 Timken bearing. Either a downgrade or again, that may be all they had at the time.

    Like any manufacturing during the WWII, there were a great deal of compromises...
    Well steel-core'ing rifle boolets reduced use of Lead. Done more for that economy reason on standard ammo than for Armour-Piercing effect.

    Even so, there sure was a Helluva demand for it considering the one-way or "single use" nature and 18,000 to 24,000 rounds fired for every enemy kilt.

    Kinda surprising more wartime machinery didn't have wood-byproduct "plastics" as badging in place of any sort of metal at all. The bonding Phenols are coal-derived and we had plenty of coal and sawdust without reliance on ocean freight.

    Pacific War had seen the then-major supplies of Tin (Malaya) and Bauxite (French New Caledonia) adversely impacted. Fortunate for the US that Arkansas had a lot of it, too.

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    It has been a while since I posted. I'm one of those "essential" workers and let me tell you, it has been a ride so far.

    That being said, I thought I would offer an update on what I have been thinking about on the very little down time I get at work.

    cross-slide.jpg

    So I have my saddle and cross slide back from the machinist. I'm measuring up to get the best Rulon 143 installation strategy mapped out for the next step.

    I will be putting Rulon 0.035" on the flat of the saddle under the cross slide first. Then adding Rulon on the dovetail and gib of the cross slide. This will get me back to original height as well as full adjustment on the gib. I have never scraped Rulon so there is going to be a learning curve.

    I plan on gluing Rulon on an old 123 block or flat piece of metal and try scraping it flat using my surface plate. This should give me a feel of how hard or gentile I need to be on Rulon.


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