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  1. #1
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    Default A Monarch Newbie question

    Hi All,

    I am contemplating getting a Monarch 10ee - mid 60's lathe. I am completely ignorant about these machines. It currently has a VFD with a 5hp motor, but no low speed - is that an artifact for the VFD or ???

    What should I look for in terms of potential problem areas?

    This is a really tough question and I apologize - but in terms of a Monarch - what does your money buy, EG $2K buys you some parts and a lot of scap metal, $3K buys ...., $x buys a good reasonably well tooled machine...

    Thanks for your help

    Ray

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    5 hp without a back gear is going to be seriously under powered at low speeds. They normally got 10 hp if dropping the backgear and it still has less torque than the original machine.

    The way VFDs work, at 10% speed you got 10% of the power. or an engineer would say constant torque.

    Good 10EEs are expensive machines but prices are all over the map.

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    No low gear means that whoever did the VFD conversion took the easy way out and eliminated the reduction gearbox. It’s the easy way out because you just gut the DC components and bolt in the AC motor with belts directly driving the spindle.

    As Karl stated, the original drive was DC, the beauty of DC motors is instant and constant torque across rpm. AC motors make rated power only at rated rpm, as you lower the drive frequency the power drops off accordingly.

    Without a back gear i would want at least a 7.5 hp motor. A 5hp conversion with the back gear would be ok, but still less than the OEM DC system.

    Ryan

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    Ok,

    Thanks for the heads up - I understand the effects of a VFD on an AC motor - so that makes sense. I have been looking for information and was hoping to find a basic document that listed options and dates when available and perhaps 'desirabililty', although there is a lot of information out there, have yet to find this type of doc.

    The price question is because I see them all over the map - $2500 - $20K, and I have a limited budget, and no understanding of the price points, but do have time to wait. The problem is knowing when to 'pull the trigger' - cuz I COULD us a bit more patience...

    Thanks

    Ray

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    Sounds like you are a cheap skate, like me. 10EE with dead electics are fairly common. that really reduces the sale price. I got a good one with a TON of tooling, dead drive, for $4200 about twenty years ago. A VFD upgrade is not that big a project.

    Keep in mind tooling is worth more than the machine. Price a follow rest, a steady rest, and a 2J collet holder and collets once.

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    You should put a "Wanted" post in the For sale / wanted section here and see if one of the members would sell you one. I have seen burnt out 1/2 way decent machines sell for $2500.00 on machinery dealers floor.

    If you want to see what dealers are selling go to Surplusrecord.com and machinetools.com and place a wanted ad. That wanted is sent to all the dealers around the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbahr View Post
    Ok,

    Thanks for the heads up - I understand the effects of a VFD on an AC motor - so that makes sense. I have been looking for information and was hoping to find a basic document that listed options and dates when available and perhaps 'desirabililty', although there is a lot of information out there, have yet to find this type of doc.

    The price question is because I see them all over the map - $2500 - $20K, and I have a limited budget, and no understanding of the price points, but do have time to wait. The problem is knowing when to 'pull the trigger' - cuz I COULD us a bit more patience...

    Thanks

    Ray
    My order of importance for a machine purchase is condition, included tooling, then location. A day's drive that nets chucks, steady rests and other tools is much better than saving a few dollars on the purchase.

    I just bought a 1956 Monarch 10ee, unit was in Texas being cared for by forum member Butch. She's now in my shop in Florida. Machine is in overall good condition (verified with a test bar) and came well tooled with nice 3 jaw, nice 4 jaw, lever collet closer, Jacobs rubberflex chuck, centers, drill chuck, 1 dog plate, 2 face plates, tool post and several boxes of electrical spares including some tubes for the drive. Total cost to purchase, transport and setup just north of $7k.

    Monarch 10ee are often available at a lower price if the drive is not functioning. This is primarily because the tube based drive systems can be complex to troubleshoot and job shops want machines that run all day, every day and can be fixed by anyone with a hammer and screwdriver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    You should put a "Wanted" post in the For sale / wanted section here and see if one of the members would sell you one. I have seen burnt out 1/2 way decent machines sell for $2500.00 on machinery dealers floor.

    If you want to see what dealers are selling go to Surplusrecord.com and machinetools.com and place a wanted ad. That wanted is sent to all the dealers around the world.
    Both good suggestions. Dig around here in the forum and you'll find some of the things you can inspect even when a machine is not powered. If you decide to spend more, say 8-15k, either inspect in person or buy from a reputable dealer that provides a full inspection.

    This forum and in particular the forum members have a wealth of knowledge and will gladly help if you find a machine at the right price that needs a bit of work.

    Happy hunting.

    Ryan

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    Thanks Ryan,

    I am chatting with someone but I suspect that the reduction gearbox is gone. Although it sounds like a good machine, that would be a bit disconcerting... It does have tooling (some).

    WRT electronics, I don't worry about that. I can generally fix/improvise/replace any of that, BUT the mechanicals beyond obvious simple stuff need to be good esp knowing as little about these as I do.

    I really don't mind driving a bit - an interesting road trip, I have a car trailer and truck, so that part is not a big issue.

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    Hi All,

    I have explored 2 options - both look like clean machines, one had some tooling but a 5hp motor and no back gears, the other no tooling, no taper, none of the good-to-have doodads, esp seeing this is extremely likely to be the last lathe I buy - famous last words???

    Ray

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    my two cents. Tooling is EXPENSIVE and hard to find. no way you will get a taper attachment later, for example.

    Myself, I'd drive a LONG way for a fully tooled machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_T View Post
    my two cents. Tooling is EXPENSIVE and hard to find. no way you will get a taper attachment later, for example.

    Myself, I'd drive a LONG way for a fully tooled machine.
    Taper attachments come up for sale every now and then, I currently have two and may part with one?

    Tooling is nice but can be gathered as budget allows!

    I would get the one in the best possible condition you can afford, unless you plan on rebuilding it of course?

    Kevin

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbahr View Post
    Ok,

    Thanks for the heads up - I understand the effects of a VFD on an AC motor - so that makes sense. I have been looking for information and was hoping to find a basic document that listed options and dates when available and perhaps 'desirabililty', although there is a lot of information out there, have yet to find this type of doc.

    The price question is because I see them all over the map - $2500 - $20K, and I have a limited budget, and no understanding of the price points, but do have time to wait. The problem is knowing when to 'pull the trigger' - cuz I COULD us a bit more patience...

    Thanks

    Ray
    DC motors can be found for a restoration to full performance. The community has sorted what it takes to make a proper solid-state DC Drive work, and work very well, with either the low-RPM.Hi-Torque "large frame" nominal 3 HP Reliance or the higher base-RPM 5 HP GE, Louis-Allis, or (rare) Reliance small frame.

    The harder part is finding a reduction gearbox with gears in good condition (bearings are easy, dog clutches can be rebuilt).

    As essentially ALL DC preservations, plus "most" VFD conversions retained the gearbox, they've gotten scarce.


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