Monarch Series 61, Rebuilding for Improvement - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post

    Are you controlling the end thrust with bronze washers on both sides and setting the feed rod coupler to set it ?


    Is the QCGB ready for reassembly. ?
    I didn't add anything to control thust from the other side. Though I suppose I could have. Wear from that direction was minimal though. My theory is apron is working when moving toward chuck, so probabaly more drag on feed rod that direction. Verse unloaded when moving away from chuck. You can see just light markings here, though not a great pic, the hole just past bevel gear:

    38.jpg

    I did get qcgb back together. Also got bevel gears and clutch lever oriented:

    74.jpg

    I'm going to set qcgb back on base, but I wont bolt it up till lead screw is in. Leadscrew bearing flange is a trick and a half on a 16". I need to float apron, lead screw, and qcgb in at the same time. Due to bed way blocking bearing flange. A pic from initial tear down:

    53.jpg

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  3. #42
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    You're doing a nice job on this. I should have waited to do my 612 until after your posts as inspiration.

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    With moving the clutch bevel gears in qcgb 180 degrees out, I cut a new key slot in the through rod for clutch on the rear side, where lever assembly mounts.

    Because I'm relatively close to the wall on rear side, I wanted to stick the through rod in now, in case I don't need to remove qcgb again. The through rod can not enter through the front of lathe. You can see it shoved part way in here:

    76.jpg

    Whether removing or installing qcgb, the through rod need to be pushed at least flush with bed to avoid interference while moving qcgb:

    77.jpg

    If you have limited room on rear side, and forget to install the rod, you can remove a cover and a bearing for the rod which should give you room. Hard to see, but I drilled an oil hole for the bearing at 12 oclock:

    78.jpg

    I set qcgb on base, but I'm not totally in position yet. You can see the upper bearing flange on qcgb for lead screw. I need lead screw mounted before going all the way in:

    79.jpg

  6. #44
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    The lead screw end bracket has 4 bearing holes, lead screw, lead screw reverse, clutch, and feed rod. The bearings for lead screw and lead screw reverse were fine, I left them alone.

    I made new bearings for the clutch rod and feed rod. The clutch rod took a single bearing. The contact surface longer on feed rod, and it took two bearings.

    On both feed rod bearings I cut 4 length wise oil relief grooves. The grooves in interior bearing run the total length of bearing, while the outer bearing I did about half way to keep oil from running outside:

    80.jpg

    Bearings pressed in, I mounted on bed simply to get it out of my way :

    81.jpg

    I had initially planned on drilling through the cast of bed bracket to add gits oilers. Instead a simpler and cleaner solution popped to mind.

    The are solid core plugs that get hammered into the far right of bearing bores. Exception is the upper bore for lead screw reverse, which not only rotates, but slides in and out:

    82.jpg

    Anyway, I decided to drill and tap those plugs 1/8" npt. I'll either hand screw pipe plugs in, or add 90 degree gits oilers to it. But now those 3 bearing bores can be oiled proper:

    83.jpg

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  8. #45
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    Getting ready to start the apron.

    84.jpg

    When I removed it I had washed it out over a parts washer. Cursory inspection, all the gear teeth are there, and no wasted roller or ball bearings. Clutches seem to lock by hand.

    85.jpg

    Like the qcgb and bed end bracket, it seems feed rod and clutch rod portions are what took the most beating. As part of that I'll be addressing the worm gear and feed rod connection.

    While here I intend on addressing the oil pump and oil lines.

    86.jpg

    EG called it about a year ago, sight unseen . The squares for clutch rod wore out:

    87.jpg

  9. #46
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    EG called it about a year ago, sight unseen . The squares for clutch rod wore out:



    You can mill it out and make a replaceable bushing. Two 90 deg. insert's could be changed without disassembly. They would have captured for sliding the handle back and forth. You will probably never wear them out again.
    Maybe you will, your still young
    Is the square rod worn out?
    People must stand on the handles. Or never oil them so they don't get their pant legs oily.

    I'm sure you have a plan.

    Edit
    I see a snap ring.. Looks like replaceable bushings.
    Or that's just for handle removal
    Last edited by mllud22; 10-12-2021 at 05:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    EG called it about a year ago, sight unseen . The squares for clutch rod wore out:



    You can mill it out and make a replaceable bushing. Two 90 deg. insert's could be changed without disassembly. They would have captured for sliding the handle back and forth. You will probably never wear them out again.
    Maybe you will, your still young
    Is the square rod worn out?
    People must stand on the handles. Or never oil them so they don't get their pant legs oily.

    I'm sure you have a plan.

    Edit
    I see a snap ring.. Looks like replaceable bushings.
    Or that's just for handle removal
    The lever on qcgb, the square is a replaceable insert, by the looks of it I think these are too. There are two on the apron.

    The one on qcgb is in good shape. It looks to me as a solid insert that was center drilled the size of square then a shaper used to cut the four corners.

    My initial plan was to cut and center drill some round stock in the same manner. Then unpowered, use lathe carriage as a shaper to run a lathe tool in to cut the 4 corners out. Its how I cut my length wise oil grooves in bearings in previous posts, btw.

    I hadn't considered your plan, that's not a bad idea, and probably faster. Cut the circle in half and mill two 90's. . . I'll better examine the situation once I got it tore down.

    The square rod has some wear I can feel in the most traveled area. Still usable though I think. At least thats the current plan . The end result I think will be a little bit of play on the wore area, but still very effective. Plus I'm not an employee . . .and not running it long shifts every day. I think cleaned, oiled, and new square inserts will carry me to the end.

    A couple posts ago I show making round bushings for the bed end bracket. Well one of those is for the square clutch rod. The rod has a similar round stock piece added to it with a taper pin, to be able to spin on the round bushing:

    88.jpg

    Looking more closely at it, I think they used a drill size larger than the rod, then cut the 4 corners out. I popped this off hoping to use it as a template when I make repair on the apron's square insert holes.

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    Looking at the clutch lever assembly on apron. It is its own assembly block that attaches with two allen head bolts:

    92.jpg 93.jpg

    And moving over to look at the worm gear and feed rod connection. The bushings are held in by taper pins hammered down at about a 45 degree angle. The small end of taper pins being accessed from the bottom side of apron:

    94.jpg 95.jpg

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    Another item I want to address in the apron is the oil pump, and oil system. Dropping the oil pan off the bottom of apron. A bunch of pasty old garbage:

    96.jpg

    Looking up we see metering tree, plus a decrepit looking oil pump :

    97.jpg

    As a side project to this, with what I want to do in mounting apron, I will need to counter balance the weight on saddle. So I started cleaning and prepping the casting for the taper attachment too. By the time I took this pic I had cleared out a bunch of chips and garbage:

    98.jpg

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    Removing the two allen head bolts, I got the apron's clutch lever assembly up on the bench. The snap ring on each end actually holds a steel plate and a felt behind it:

    99.jpg

    A closer look at those pieces:

    100.jpg

    Now with the felts out from each end, we can see the actual inserts for turning the square clutch rod. One pic of each end:

    101.jpg 102.jpg

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    To finish disassembly, there are two allen set screws, 180 apart on the end collar. Here we see one:

    103.jpg

    You need to fully remove set screws to get it apart:

    104.jpg

    Once apart we can see how to knock the inserts out:

    105.jpg

    Both inserts knocked out:

    106.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    ...102.jpg
    Interesting! How do you suppose that internal profile was machined?

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Interesting! How do you suppose that internal profile was machined?

    Cal
    Wear mostly . My guess is a shaper originally to make it a square hole, or using a lathe unpowered like a shaper. Which is the route I'm going to attempt.

    mllud22 had suggested essentially cutting the circle in half, then milling a 90 in each half, but that was before seeing apart.

    With it apart, the inserts are press fit in. Plus they (not sure who they are ) drilled and added locking pins like you might on a gear repair. Due to that, I'm thinking I'll try the shaper route.

    I started making them, not finished yet. Clutch square rod is 3/4". I set up and power fed a 13/16" drill through, always fun :

    107.jpg 108.jpg

    The stock I'm using is some mystery, unknown steel that I had. Trying various feeds and speeds I couldn't get a decent finish with insert tooling. Finally swapped to some brazed carbide, and at a 1000 rpm it came up alright:

    109.jpg

    Parted my two new inserts off. I'll hopefully get to cutting my four corners for the square out tomorrow. The 5th piece in the pic is what attaches to clutch rod for bed end bearing, its 4 corner intact.

    110.jpg

    My theory on the wear is poor/no lube, not the actual motion of engaging clutch. With no lube, and apron constantly moving, plus weight of clutch arm pointing out at 90 degrees. . .well after x amount of years you get this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Wear mostly . My guess is a shaper originally to make it a square hole, or using a lathe unpowered like a shaper. Which is the route I'm going to attempt.
    You can buy bushings with square or hex holes already broached into the bushing. They are mild steel, iirc. And cheap. If they have your size, that'd maybe be easier ? I can't remember who makes them but try asking AlfaGTA, think I saw them in one of his threads.

    Also, Pioneer Broach in California has a bazillion broaches, 95% chance he can just pull a couple for you. They work pretty cheap, like the rest of us $2 hos.

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    The clutches on the lathes that I have ran that had a clutch don't really require a lot of force for snapping over center to lock it in. Adjusting the clutch too tight would add to wearing the bushings out.
    You want it to snap over center and lock but it doesn't need to be too tight. I like having a clutch to jog the chuck and help in meshing gears.
    Like a lot of bushings it must be made soft to sacrifice the bushing and not the shaft. I like E. G.'s broach suggestion. You could make small cuts.

    Just a note on your oil pump. That's pretty much the same setup as the 10ee accept where they mounted the distribution manifold.
    What I was thinking on the 10ee is to add a one shot oiler and T Into the oil line above the check valve in the apron. Then if it sits for a while between use I wouldn't have too Crank on that wheel for several minute's too get it lubed. Or just give it a shot of oil whenever.
    I would run a hard line to a convenient place on the back of the apron to hook to a flexible braded line. Getting a flexible line positioned so it could follow the apron and not rub. Maybe a long weak spring too keep the flex line pulled taunt in one direction . Hidden under the bed. Although you have a lot longer travel between centers than a 10ee. More oil line too deal with.
    Just a thought.
    Your pump looked pretty nasty. That filter couldn't have let much oil through. If I remember right that's is already cleaned up

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    You can buy bushings with square or hex holes already broached into the bushing. They are mild steel, iirc. And cheap. If they have your size, that'd maybe be easier ? I can't remember who makes them but try asking AlfaGTA, think I saw them in one of his threads.

    Also, Pioneer Broach in California has a bazillion broaches, 95% chance he can just pull a couple for you. They work pretty cheap, like the rest of us $2 hos.
    Dammit, I wish you would have piped up sooner !

    Googling around I did find some offerings, and broach cut stuff. I didn't exhaust my search, but nothing would be a straight up replacement though. . .different OD's, different lengths, and mostly I'd need to order bulk.

    As I'm halfway into it, I'll probably continue on and see if I can make something passable. OD on mine are 1.6265" btw, .785" in length.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Wear mostly . My guess is a shaper originally to make it a square hole, or using a lathe unpowered like a shaper. Which is the route I'm going to attempt.

    mllud22 had suggested essentially cutting the circle in half, then milling a 90 in each half, but that was before seeing apart.

    With it apart, the inserts are press fit in. Plus they (not sure who they are ) drilled and added locking pins like you might on a gear repair. Due to that, I'm thinking I'll try the shaper route.

    I started making them, not finished yet. Clutch square rod is 3/4". I set up and power fed a 13/16" drill through, always fun :

    107.jpg 108.jpg

    The stock I'm using is some mystery, unknown steel that I had. Trying various feeds and speeds I couldn't get a decent finish with insert tooling. Finally swapped to some brazed carbide, and at a 1000 rpm it came up alright:

    109.jpg

    Parted my two new inserts off. I'll hopefully get to cutting my four corners for the square out tomorrow. The 5th piece in the pic is what attaches to clutch rod for bed end bearing, its 4 corner intact.

    110.jpg

    My theory on the wear is poor/no lube, not the actual motion of engaging clutch. With no lube, and apron constantly moving, plus weight of clutch arm pointing out at 90 degrees. . .well after x amount of years you get this.
    You could do the same thing with the milling machine unpowered. Lock the spindle & use the quill to manually feed a tool into your work.

    I’d personally try to build a rotary broach to do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TBJK View Post
    You could do the same thing with the milling machine unpowered. Lock the spindle & use the quill to manually feed a tool into your work.

    .
    That's not a terrible idea at all. With the mill you could use a rotary chuck with degree wheel for the 4 points. Little bit better control fine feeding cross and long. . .

    I was thinking a little bit better brute force with lathe carriage, but the mill might be the way to go.

    I got called in to work, so I'll have a peak when i get back this afternoon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    As I'm halfway into it, I'll probably continue on and see if I can make something passable. OD on mine are 1.6265" btw, .785" in length.
    Or you could look at this as a good reason to pick up a Pratt & Whitney slotter

    I wish you would have piped up sooner !
    Sorry, was trapped by a show called "Celebrate the Remaining Years". With a title like that, well hell ... Been trying to figure out who are the good guys and who are the bad guys ever since. Devious bastards, all of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    To finish disassembly, there are two allen set screws, 180 apart on the end collar. Here we see one:

    103.jpg

    You need to fully remove set screws to get it apart:

    104.jpg

    Once apart we can see how to knock the inserts out:

    105.jpg

    Both inserts knocked out:

    106.jpg
    a35e8443-cd40-422b-8a30-4f4c5e5f448c_1_105_c.jpg

    Would this part help?

    Mike


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