Monarch Series 61, Rebuilding for Improvement - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    Or you could look at this as a good reason to pick up a Pratt & Whitney slotter


    Sorry, was trapped by a show called "Celebrate the Remaining Years". With a title like that, well hell ... Been trying to figure out who are the good guys and who are the bad guys ever since. Devious bastards, all of them.

    I have four major rebuilds after I finish this machine. I've made a decision, I think . No more new machines till I clear some floor space. That plus a bunch of smaller stuff I need to get squared away.

    Between work, sleep, and this project I've not watched anything. Need to finish Tiger and Rose and I've been hearing about this "Squid Game", might try to catch that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikethomas View Post
    Attachment 332426

    Would this part help?

    Mike
    I was thinking the clutch lever was gone from yours, it didn't cross my mind you might have the inside collar. Give me a day or two, lets see how I do.

    On another note , you had pulled the apron pinion for me, but we held off shipping because the gear teeth. If you didn't toss it, I'll take that from you. Looking at Rabler's tail stock crank thread, thinking that might be good for something like that.

    Kind of a weird ship item at about 20", but curious if you might have one of those aluminum racing stripes too:

    111.jpg

    I'll probably shoot you a text in a day or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post

    Just a note on your oil pump. That's pretty much the same setup as the 10ee accept where they mounted the distribution manifold.
    What I was thinking on the 10ee is to add a one shot oiler and T Into the oil line above the check valve in the apron. Then if it sits for a while between use I wouldn't have too Crank on that wheel for several minute's too get it lubed. Or just give it a shot of oil whenever.
    I would run a hard line to a convenient place on the back of the apron to hook to a flexible braded line. Getting a flexible line positioned so it could follow the apron and not rub. Maybe a long weak spring too keep the flex line pulled taunt in one direction . Hidden under the bed. Although you have a lot longer travel between centers than a 10ee. More oil line too deal with.
    Just a thought.
    Your pump looked pretty nasty. That filter couldn't have let much oil through. If I remember right that's is already cleaned up
    I didn't bring it up yet in this thread, but in my other thread we were discussing totally divorcing the carriage lube system from the apron. That talk started about here:
    Getting a Monarch Series 61 Back in Service

    I still fully intend to separate the two. The apron will be self contained, utilizing the oil pump. The carriage will be lubed external from a hand pump or one shot.

    I do have some more details on that, but current (floating ) plan is to finish clutch lever and taper attachment outer housing. Then probably hit worm gear and lube system simultaneous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I was thinking the clutch lever was gone from yours, it didn't cross my mind you might have the inside collar. Give me a day or two, lets see how I do.

    On another note , you had pulled the apron pinion for me, but we held off shipping because the gear teeth. If you didn't toss it, I'll take that from you. Looking at Rabler's tail stock crank thread, thinking that might be good for something like that.

    Kind of a weird ship item at about 20", but curious if you might have one of those aluminum racing stripes too:

    111.jpg

    I'll probably shoot you a text in a day or so.

    I do have some of the aluminum trim strips. Need to measure the one you need. Distance between the two screw holes.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikethomas View Post
    I do have some of the aluminum trim strips. Need to measure the one you need. Distance between the two screw holes.

    Mike
    Distance between screws is like 18 13/16" maybe 18 7/8". Total length 20.5". 1.25" wide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Distance between screws is like 18 13/16" maybe 18 7/8". Total length 20.5". 1.25" wide.
    Unfortunately the ones I have are a little shorter than that. Sorry.

    Mike

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    Just a note that if you ship one of those aluminum strips they are brittle. Tape it too a piece if 1"x2" [wood] for shipping.

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    Just took my 612 cross slide off, and remembering an earlier thread you had about backlash that I wasn't willing to track down, thought I'd throw this up here in case you were still pondering anything in that department:

    Here's the carriage with the leadscrew, and the cross slide leaning up on it's side. The 123 block is there just for scale. The big brass/bronze leadscrew nut has the 4 threaded holes, which bolt to through the four holes in the cross slide which is offset to the right. The right side of the square block nut is a threaded pinion, that rides independently on the leadscrew, it is a separate piece from the main nut. The worm gear on the cross slide engages with this pinion, and can be used to drive the pinion tighter or looser to the main block nut. The worm gear is turned by a deceptively small allen head in the end of it's shaft on the chuck side of the cross slide, along with a lock screw to hold it from turning on its own.

    Ok, the forum software turned this picture upside down. I suspect it doesn't parse orientation metadata in the jpeg files.

    img_4179.jpg

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    For those with vertigo

    Rabler
    This is a software issue. i use to have this issue but not anymore. I changed my phone to self orient the screen and it stopped. That may or may not be what fixed it. I have an Andriod phone.




    img_4179.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Just took my 612 cross slide off, and remembering an earlier thread you had about backlash. . .

    The worm gear on the cross slide engages with this pinion, and can be used to drive the pinion tighter or looser to the main block nut. The worm gear is turned by a deceptively small allen head in the end of it's shaft on the chuck side of the cross slide, along with a lock screw to hold it from turning on its own.
    That is awesome ! I like that a lot. Wish i could incorporate that on mine.

    I didn't forget, or give up the idea either. Just didn't get that far yet . The thread you were thinking of is here:
    2 Piece Crossfeed Nut Idea

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    For those with vertigo

    Rabler
    This is a software issue. i use to have this issue but not anymore. I changed my phone to self orient the screen and it stopped. That may or may not be what fixed it. I have an Andriod phone.
    Thanks for reposting it correctly. Yes, it is a software issue with the PM forum software. My iPhone, PC (which I used to upload these), and Mac all display it correctly.

    You can rotate an image by rearranging the pixels, so
    12
    34

    becomes
    24
    13

    Or, what modern software does is simply make a hidden (aka metadata) note that the right side 24 is actually up. And then relies on the display software to render the pixels correctly. This is probably similar to G68 in g-code, although I'm not a CNC coder. The problem is that PM software resizes the image, and strips out that metadata, without implementing the rotation. Updated image processing tools on the back end of most servers are capable of doing that while dealing with the rotation correctly. Other forums I post to don't have this problem. I've simply gotten tired of manually fixing it as I don't even notice it until after I post a picture, since everything else deals with it fine. Apologies for my impatience/mini temper tantrum with poor software.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    ...

    I didn't forget, or give up the idea either. Just didn't get that far yet .
    ...
    Well, if you'd give up on those extreme date nights, you might make more progress
    I'm enjoying watching your progress, thanks for all your posts!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Thanks for reposting it correctly. Yes, it is a software issue with the PM forum software. My iPhone, PC (which I used to upload these), and Mac all display it correctly.

    You can rotate an image by rearranging the pixels, so
    12
    34

    becomes
    24
    13

    Or, what modern software does is simply make a hidden (aka metadata) note that the right side 24 is actually up. And then relies on the display software to render the pixels correctly. This is probably similar to G68 in g-code, although I'm not a CNC coder. The problem is that PM software resizes the image, and strips out that metadata, without implementing the rotation. Updated image processing tools on the back end of most servers are capable of doing that while dealing with the rotation correctly. Other forums I post to don't have this problem. I've simply gotten tired of manually fixing it as I don't even notice it until after I post a picture, since everything else deals with it fine. Apologies for my impatience/mini temper tantrum with poor software.

    I don't want too get this thread going off topic but your post should be sent to the software guy for this website.
    Maybe they could fix the issue.

    I'm an old wrench jockey. My computer skills are from 25 years trial and error pushing buttons. Your way ahead of my computer comprehension. That doesn't take much.
    Thanks for the explanation. Ill dive in and try

    Texasgunsmith
    I followed your pacemaker links and that got me started reading for hours.

    I knew you hadn't forgot about the two piece cross feed nut. That will be a good mod. for your monarch.

    I have been stripping all the weight that comes off easy from the Pacemaker 's bed too lighten it for bringing it home. I only have a small forklift at the P.O.'s The raised tailstock has to be over 500#

    The L2 spanner wrench Walter made for me did the trick on removing the chuck. I did add a little propane heat too the nut. It sat there with some floor jack tension pushing up on the wrench for a minute and snapped loose.

    I remember you lightening up the series 61 for the move home. Your making some good progress now.
    Last edited by mllud22; 10-19-2021 at 03:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post

    I have been stripping all the weight that comes off easy from the Pacemaker 's bed too lighten it for bringing it home. I only have a small forklift at the P.O.'s The raised tailstock has to be over 500#
    I have been eagerly awaiting news, but I didn't want to bug you about it.

    A lost Pacemaker purchase is what led me to find this Series 61. Having it, I feel great appreciation for it, as well as going through it, getting a better understanding of all its processes. I'm really digging it.

    That said, I'm hoping to live vicariously watching yours. A good chance to see some of the differences too. You got the 20" swing and 20hp motor also. I'm going to need more floorspace and more electric to keep up with you and Rabler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Apologies for my impatience/mini temper tantrum with poor software.
    In my opinion, the stupid software is the crap that doesn't actually rotate the image but just writes some garbage in the file. If you use something like Graphics Magick to manipulate your photos, it does it correctly. Then your photo will show up the way you want everywhere, even in Plan 9.

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    With work dragging on this week, I was slow getting anything done here. But finally getting to it to handle the square drive inserts.

    I did very much like the idea of using a mill, but in the end I thought I could do it easier with a lathe. With lathe tool holder holding a square tool flat in its 90 degree corner, plus keeping concentric to the hole.

    So what I did was to chuck up a shaft. I then clamped a rotary chuck to carriage:

    115.jpg

    Using rotary chuck, I mark 4 points on my chuck backplate, 0/360, 90, 180, and 270 degrees. Also marking a pointer on the headstock. This allowed me to continuously rotate to the same 4 corners.

    116.jpg

    Using a 1/2" cutting tool, I started with a 5 degree cutting edge, but soon reground to 10 degrees.

    117.jpg

    As insurance, I had hand inscribed the square on work face, and got that relatively close to my four points with chuck jaws tight. But mostly relied on doing the math with CF dial and using dial indicators.Once in the zone, I incrementally cross fed, and lowered tool holder, watching the numbers on indicators:

    120.jpg

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    The end result is pretty damn good. Real nice fit.

    114.jpg 118.jpg

    If time and money were no option, I'd probably take the time to get some bronze stock. 3/4"id with a 1 3/4" od and make them out of that. Either 932 or 954, both available and actually not terrible cost:

    932:
    C93200 Bronze Tube 3/4" ID x 1-3/4" OD - C93200 SAE 660 Bearing Bronze - Shop By Alloy - Shop Alloys

    954:
    C95400 Bronze Tube 3/4" ID x 1-3/4" OD - C95400 Aluminum Bronze - Shop By Alloy - Shop Alloys

    The real reason for the wear is how its lubed, which I'll explain in a bit, plus I'll address. So using steel is fine imo, just saying if time and cost is no option, then I'd use bronze.

    Now these two insert are close together on the clutch arm assembly of apron. I'm going to need to install clutch rod with all the pieces loose and begin to tap them together to keep them from binding up, and working against each other. They are a press fit, so its gotta be right. Also I need to get orientation of the clutch arm correct to keep from banging my knee or chip pan:

    119.jpg

    Also, the 3/4" shaft itself. There is some wear on the most used area of shaft, just like the area of ways wear. With these new inserts I'm in way better shape, but I may replace the shaft at some point. Good news is I dont need to fully tear down lathe to pull it out, pretty much just pulling leadscrew end bracket and slide it out.

    Preliminary looking around, I can't find tool steel long enough, they seem to be coming in 2 or 3' sections. I need over 7', so will need atleast an 8' piece if and when I ever do. So far the best I've found is is 1018. Not sure if I'll get it nice and straight, or twisted like a pretzel:

    online metals .75" 1018

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    The end result is pretty damn good. Real nice fit.

    114.jpg 118.jpg

    If time and money were no option, I'd probably take the time to get some bronze stock. 3/4"id with a 1 3/4" od and make them out of that. Either 932 or 954, both available and actually not terrible cost:

    932:
    C93200 Bronze Tube 3/4" ID x 1-3/4" OD - C93200 SAE 660 Bearing Bronze - Shop By Alloy - Shop Alloys

    954:
    C95400 Bronze Tube 3/4" ID x 1-3/4" OD - C95400 Aluminum Bronze - Shop By Alloy - Shop Alloys

    The real reason for the wear is how its lubed, which I'll explain in a bit, plus I'll address. So using steel is fine imo, just saying if time and cost is no option, then I'd use bronze.

    Now these two insert are close together on the clutch arm assembly of apron. I'm going to need to install clutch rod with all the pieces loose and begin to tap them together to keep them from binding up, and working against each other. They are a press fit, so its gotta be right. Also I need to get orientation of the clutch arm correct to keep from banging my knee or chip pan:

    119.jpg

    Also, the 3/4" shaft itself. There is some wear on the most used area of shaft, just like the area of ways wear. With these new inserts I'm in way better shape, but I may replace the shaft at some point. Good news is I dont need to fully tear down lathe to pull it out, pretty much just pulling leadscrew end bracket and slide it out.

    Preliminary looking around, I can't find tool steel long enough, they seem to be coming in 2 or 3' sections. I need over 7', so will need atleast an 8' piece if and when I ever do. So far the best I've found is is 1018. Not sure if I'll get it nice and straight, or twisted like a pretzel:

    online metals .75" 1018

    Taking the time with the setup makes the job go better. It looks good.
    You wont wear those out. Another job off of your list.

    That 1018 square stock may be ok. The vendor or a spec. sheet may have more information.

    I'm a fan of bronze because I have witnessed it's durability in 100 year old printing presses. I also love machining it.

    I think the steel is better in this situation.
    Here you would be levering against the bronze flat and at best you only have half of each flat bearing surface applying pressure.
    Saying the center of each flat is a fulcrum of the pressure surface. Even with .005 clearance or wear that surface pressure area becomes less . That's why the square nut fell out of favor and the hex nut became the norm.
    I think steel is better here because it's hard.
    The sliding on the bar the bronze wins. The force of levering against bronze would be the killer.
    I may be wrong here.

    Properly adjusted these clutches don't need to be adjusted to snap over center real hard. They are often adjusted too tight.

    edit
    The bar is also open to chips . That hurts the situation . Felt wipers ? Or replace when needed

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post

    I'm a fan of bronze because I have witnessed it's durability in 100 year old printing presses. I also love machining it.


    The bar is also open to chips . That hurts the situation . Felt wipers ? Or replace when needed
    Totally agree on the bronze. Probably my favorite to work with.

    There are felt wipers that go on each end, behind a sheet metal plate and snap ring, and I have felt to make new ones:

    123.jpg

    One issue with this lathe was a grease fitting was installed. I'd prefer oil, but in this case grease was never pumped all the way through. Also I think it was forgotten, the assembly was pretty dry when I took it apart.

    There's a passage drilled through to the big bore there:

    124.jpg

    And they did indeed use grease:

    125.jpg

    Under normal conditions lube would enter that bore, then work around these oil trenches, and into the two oil holes. Once through the holes, oil could fill the cavity, lube the square shaft, and wick the felts:

    126.jpg

    Anyway, I plan to continue to use a grease fitting, as they are cheap and easy to find. But I have an oil can set up with a grease gun's hose for pumping oil to such things:

    132.jpg

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    I got the clutch shaft cleaned up, and got it, plus the relevent pieces up on lathe to get alignment right. Alignment for both the square drives to assembly, and alignment of the handle itself.

    127.jpg 128.jpg

    In deciding orientation of the handle itself, I started checking pics in manuals and catalogs. Every pic I came across had both clutch handles positioned at about the same angle. Example here, you can the handles on qcgb and apron:

    129.jpg

    Once I had handle angle where I wanted, I used retaining compound on the two new inserts, and managed to get them both tapped in all the way:

    130.jpg

    Pretty much how it looks. Still need to drill and hammer locking pins into inserts. Plus cut felts. But we're close to done with this part.

    131.jpg

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