Monarch Series 61, Rebuilding for Improvement - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Back in post #49 I had started cleaning up the taper attachment main casting. A bit out of sequence, but I wanted some weight to off set the apron, once I'm ready to mount it.

    After initial clean up, I removed a couple of the bearings. There's 16 total bearings, 8 for the bottom, and 8 for the sides. Side note, a .010" shim between all the bearing inner races and the housing. Presumably to allow outer race to spin free, and not drag on the housing when pulled tight.

    133.jpg

    The 8 lower bearings were all wasted. I'm assuming water got in them and laid there a long time. One of the side bearings was also this way. In cleaning and checking bearings I'll be replacing all 8 bottom side, and 4 of the side bearings.

    134.jpg

    Here's the main casting with all the bearings removed:

    135.jpg

    Final cleaning and paint:

    136.jpg

    The bottom bearings were single row ball bearings with steel shields, SKF 6201-2Z. The side bearings are double row ball bearings also with steel shields, 5201 ZZ seem to indicate those, though this box has some different lettering after the 5201.

    137.jpg

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    If the Series 61 had covers for the taper attachment. Finding those or fabricating them may be worthwhile.
    Taper attachments by design collect swarf. The location doesn't help either.
    You may not use a coolant pump but I would like to use the pump on the 10ee. i have seen what using a coolant pump does to a lathe. You can wipe most of the lathe down but the taper attachment needs to be covered , coolant or not.
    I painted all un-milled surfaces like you did on yours. A good rule of painting machinery. No painting the ways
    Time to face the apron. Mine is still dismantled also. I'm still thinking about a lube plumbing change.
    Stay with it ,Its looking good

    Edit
    Good control of coolant flow and a shield could help. On a bigger lathe like yours and my pacemaker dabbing on coolant seems it would be a PITA. Depends on the cut I guess.

  4. #83
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    I've got a 61 in pieces so enjoy your work. I would not use C3 bearings for slow turning alignment applications but I like SKF Explorer. I always specify clearance when I order bearings but often get C3 when I want CN. In a perfect world I'd use a C2 for this. Dave

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    In part, my reply to mllud22 and beckerkumm both kind of spill from to the other. . .

    For mllud22, I do have the chip guards for taper attchment. Here's a pic of one side prior to teardown:

    82.jpg

    I'm undecided on the coolant issue. At this point I don't think I need flood cooling. But even this late in the game I'm still learning and trying different stuff . I think the current guards will certainly help with chip management, coolant I'm not so sure.

    I started the T/A casting to offset weight of apron, and I'm half tempted to mostly complete the whole TA now. But in reality, I will probably finish the TA after the lathe is almost complete. . .

    The reason being, the 16 bearings in the main casting don't just bolt on. The little shafts they're on are actually cams. By breaking the lock nut loose on one side, you can use a flat head on the other side to adjust cam position of bearing.

    In part, this adjustment should be able to snug the working portion of TA to keep it from being sloppy, but I also think I should be able to tram the moving portion of TA to the bed, getting alignment just right, by using these cams. Anyway, I won't make that adjustment until I'm finished with bed ways. You can see the flat head slots here:

    133.jpg

    For Beckerkumm, those bearings and cams are in part for my reply to you too.

    I had to do a little research based on your comment, thanks for making me think .

    Real nice info from two links, first here:
    Understanding Internal Clearance with Ceramic Hybrid Ball Bearings

    The 2nd, a pdf from SKF here:
    https://www.skf.com/binaries/pub12/I..._12-144119.pdf

    In essence, I think I'm fine, in that my bearings, when adjusted with the cams will always have the load from the same direction. Because the direction never changes, the clearance will always be 180 degrees out from that point. So I wont have varying movement.

    The clearance issue would be more of a problem lets say for a shaft, where load or forces could throw it anywhere in the 360 degree area.

    This is explained in the 2nd link, I took a pic and circled that explanation in green:

    149.jpg

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    Good point about the load always taking the slop out of the clearance in your application. I seldom use sealed bearings but that is one place I could see the benefit. Dave

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    I went ahead and installed all the bearings into the taper attachment casting. I also got the little shafts and bores lubed, so I can work the cam action on each bearing later:

    154.jpg

    I then lifted the saddle. I wanted to get a good cleaning of the ways for the upcoming evaluation. Figured I'd get that done prior to mounting the taper casting.

    After setting carriage back down, I installed 3 out of 4 carriage clamps. They mount to the underside of carriage, and extend to the underside of bed ways. Presumably for better rigidity, and to keep carriage from popping up off ways.

    After that I went ahead and bolted the taper casting on:

    155.jpg

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    Part 1, The cause.

    The next portion here will be a bit of an experiment and a modification. I'll be addressing the worm gear and feed rod drive assembly.

    Much like the feed rod bearings in qcgb and lead screw end bracket, the bearings for worm gear are whipped. The worm gear is driven by the feed rod, and there is a coupling assembly to make that happen, all quite worn.

    I have my pieces, and I also got virtually the whole assembly from Mike Thomas, thanks Mike . Those I got from him were also worn, but it was full disclosure and I wanted them anyway. Then looking at nt1953's excellent thread, he had the same problem, and he has a real nice repair/upgrade:
    Monarch Model 61 Apron Worm Assembley Repairs

    That's 3 for 3 that I know of with excessive and unusual wear. I intend to address it. I believe I see both the cause and the solution.

    The cause: Lack of lube, we'll call it zero.

    Solution: Lube it !

    Currently the only lube coming toward this assembly is this only line:

    163.jpg

    Not seen in the oil line pic is a chip guard box that covers the gears and oil line. Now if the oil line drips straight down it will kinda sorta fall onto thrust bearing. If oil actually shoots out, then it hits chip guard and rolls under worm gear.

    However, nothing else gets lubed. Why ? Because it was not meant to lube. It was meant to wash incidental debris out a drain hole under the worm gear. With worm gear removed, here's the drain hole:

    164.jpg

    Well that didn't really work as intended, as garbage was piled up under worm gear anyway.

    Monarch planned for no lube. Gear driven by worm gear is bronze. The fat OD bushings for worm gear are bronze as well.

    But no lube takes it toll. Note the .030" plus gap in this worn out bushing:

    165.jpg

    Note the thrust wear in the one bronze bushing as well. With increase thrust/end play the drive dogs for coupling accelerate their wear as well, because they are not engaged tightly after bronze bushings wear:

    167.jpg

    This is evidenced more when you see the upward slope of wear on drive dogs. As the bronze wore, the couplings begin to separate on the dogs, thus the sloped wear:

    168.jpg
    Last edited by texasgunsmith; 11-09-2021 at 12:10 PM.

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    Part 2, Solution.

    The main solution is fairly simple. I'm going to tap and stick a pipe plug in the drain hole under the worm gear:

    164.jpg

    Then the oil level will begin to rise in the cavity under worm gear.

    The bronze bushings are rather thick. I'm going to bore them out, and make new bushings to press inside them. Inside these new bushings I'm going to cut oil trenches like this, but deeper and a little wider:

    80.jpg

    I will cut the trenches the full length of bearings. This will allow oil to run out either end on the worm gear assembly. In this way, finite or molecule type debris will have a chance to be washed out as new oil is pumped in.

    Downside is larger debris will never escape, but that was a problem anyway, even with the drain hole in the bottom.

    Anywho, that's the plan. Got a bunch of repairs to make in the process, and I'll be posting some of the tear down etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Part 2, Solution.

    The main solution is fairly simple. I'm going to tap and stick a pipe plug in the drain hole under the worm gear:

    164.jpg

    Then the oil level will begin to rise in the cavity under worm gear.

    The bronze bushings are rather thick. I'm going to bore them out, and make new bushings to press inside them. Inside these new bushings I'm going to cut oil trenches like this, but deeper and a little wider:

    80.jpg

    I will cut the trenches the full length of bearings. This will allow oil to run out either end on the worm gear assembly. In this way, finite or molecule type debris will have a chance to be washed out as new oil is pumped in.

    Downside is larger debris will never escape, but that was a problem anyway, even with the drain hole in the bottom.

    Anywho, that's the plan. Got a bunch of repairs to make in the process, and I'll be posting some of the tear down etc.
    That's a good analytical assessment of the cause of the wear. It's contagious wear. You cant make a good repair without understanding why it failed.
    Does that worm gear shield cover it down close too the worm pan [ future sump ] ?
    If not maybe add a rubber shield/ flap ,Somthin
    I may be over un-thunkin again.
    It seems the worm should stay pretty clean. The feed shaft may carry some grit into the bushings.
    I think the oil line on your 10ee drips directly on the worm. Very similar oiling setup.
    That Thread of nt1953's repair is a great reference.
    Monarch Model 61 Apron Worm Assembley Repairs (practicalmachinist.com)

    Your worm gear and worm from Mike look good accept the drive dogs. You knew that.
    Operators using air hoses blew a lot of chips in aprons
    Go forward young man.

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    The worm sump on my 1943 10EE has a tapped hole with a plug. As far as I know, all 10EEs are like that. I've always thought that the sump was intended to fill to the level of the feed rod and any excess would drip out around the feed rod. I filled my worm sump with fresh oil when I had the apron off.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    The worm sump on my 1943 10EE has a tapped hole with a plug. As far as I know, all 10EEs are like that. I've always thought that the sump was intended to fill to the level of the feed rod and any excess would drip out around the feed rod. I filled my worm sump with fresh oil when I had the apron off.

    Cal
    That's something that would make sense to me. Maybe that is the intention, and I'm just missing the plug. That would explain my wear.

    For the others, maybe the metering unit was plugged, or fouled lube system. Or maybe there was a bunch of builds the plug got left out. In checking the parts pic for a Series 61 there is no plug listed. . . Could that have led to major oversight in builds ?

    172.jpg

    I'd be curious to hear from other 61 owners if their plug is in there.

    In checking my 10ee, I do in fact have a plug installed.

    My 10ee manual. . . I'm not quite used to how the parts are shown, couldn't tell you if its listed there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post

    Does that worm gear shield cover it down close too the worm pan [ future sump ] ?
    If not maybe add a rubber shield/ flap ,Somthin

    Operators using air hoses blew a lot of chips in aprons
    Here's an apron back side pic without the cover:

    169.jpg

    With the cover. The upper hole is for lead screw, through that cover. The lower hole through apron casting is feed rod and worm gear assembly, though already out:

    170.jpg

    A more direct pic to see the area it covers. Not air tight, but decent chip protection:

    171.jpg

    I think you're right, probably air hose usage is the culprit for most internal chip collection. I was also thinking some incidental chips from leadscrew. Feed rod will be the work horse, with lead screw not turning. Maybe some chips collect on top because its not spinning, and get drug through the cover holes.

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    Pulling the worm gear assembly out.

    The gear that rides on worm gear is called the worm wheel.

    Due to the arched teeth on worm wheel, it can not be removed until worm gear is lowered. Catch 22 is you can't remove worm gear until worm wheel is off. But you can lower worm gear by removing the bushings. With bushings removed, worm gear drops lower. Then worm wheel can be removed. Followed by pulling the worm gear out.

    The thickness of bushings is pretty great on a Series 61, I'm measuring a side wall thickness at just under a 1/2" at .440". One nice thing, Monarch threaded two holes to help pull bushings out. The holes are #10-24 thread:

    158.jpg

    I cut a piece of channel, and drilled 2 holes to match bushing. With the intent to use it as a puller. As luck would have it, the oil pan bolts on apron are #10-24, and were the right length for what I wanted:

    174.jpg

    Though a press fit, it was not a super tight press fit. I got about half way out and used a pry bar to finish pulling:

    175.jpg

    Now due to the worn out bushings, after I pulled one bushing, the worm gear dropped enough to pull worm wheel. If new, or good bushings, I don't think it would work that way. But as it did, I pulled worm gear out. There are 3 bushings in a series 61. For the one toward center, I drilled the channel for a 7/16 bolt. Then using a 6" long bolt and fender washers inside I was able to pull that middle bearing:

    177.jpg 176.jpg

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    With worm gear assembly out and apart, just examining some pieces and comparing to those I got from Mike Thomas.

    First of which is the coupling that feed rod drives. One end has drive dogs that connect to dogs on worm gear through an intermediate coupling. One funny oddity, my dogs are wore on the opposite side from Mike's:

    180.jpg

    Now this coupling needs internal keys that ride along the slots in feed rod. This is how feed rod spins the assembly. Looking at mine they are wore down to razor blades . Also of note. On my piece, those keys are not removeable, they are part of the same metal as the coupling. I'm guessing that it was broach cut:

    182.jpg

    In double checking the parts book, I see no keys shown or listed. I circled the part in red:

    181.jpg

    Super excellent news, the coupling I got from Mike has key slots ! I'm guessing upgraded, repaired or modified in its life somewhere:

    183.jpg

    Right now my intention is to use Mike's coupling, and I will weld and build up the wore drive dogs, and grind them back to something like original, hopefully.

    Next the bushings. The 61 uses 3 bushing for the worm gear assembly, two for the worm gear itself, and one for the coupling. It seems the bushing for coupling takes a lot of wear from thrust stresses.

    My plan is to replace one bushing with one of Mike's with no thrust wear. I have 4 total with no thrust wear, though all are wore internal. Part of my plan is, I will bore out 3 of them to just inside the diameter of the two threaded holes. And I will make new bushings to shove inside them. Which thankfully I already have material for.

    184.jpg

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    In comparing the two worm gears I have. The one from my machine had considerable wear on the shafts. The one I got from Mike look real nice on shafts, I think I could just polish them:

    185.jpg

    The one issue with Mike's was I had some lines on gear teeth where it works. I thinking a chip must have been in there and scratched it.

    186.jpg

    Before making a decision, I thought I'd see if I could cut my shafts. One important detail which nt1953 mentioned in his thread. Don't cut all the way across bearing journal. Stop before you get to where thrust bearings sit.

    Keeping that in mind I stuck thrust bearings on, and set micrometer stop so I finish my cut just where the thrust bearings begin:

    187.jpg

    I ran my first pass at .005", and 2nd upping it to .010". Here you see after .015" taken off diameter:

    188.jpg

    I was having an issue with the interrupted cut at the beginning of shaft. I ended up taking the worm gear to a pedestal grinder and carefully grinding the OD at the end to within .002" of where I thought my final cut would be.

    That seemed to do the trick. I ended up taking another .015" for a total of about .030" off the OD, and had less issue with interrupted cut as reached my final pass. I have a couple minor lines still visible, but I preferred not removing more material. With this cleaned up and new bushings it should work well:

    190.jpg

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    I finished cutting the journals for the bushings on worm gear. I left a step on each side for the thrust washers. Before pics:

    191.jpg 192.jpg

    I cut about .030" on the dog side, and about .020" on the non-dog side:

    193.jpg

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    I was thinking about the angles cut for the dogs. The working sides are 180 out from its mating counter part. The angles each run toward the centerline, so can't cut or grind straight across:

    194.jpg

    I was wondering if there was a name for this, but I didn't find it. While looking in Machinery's Handbook under "clutches and couplings", I did find this on page 614 of the 16th edition from 1963. Example D in fig 2:

    195.jpg

    This got me thinking about another question I had. Why a three piece coupling ?

    197.jpg

    In nt1953's thread he converts to a two piece design. And I had asked if any theories why a 3 piece here:
    Monarch Model 61 Apron Worm Assembley Repairs

    I originally had two thoughts. One, the center piece might be a safety, if you crash machine maybe its a break away item. Or two, it was made of softer material to be a wear item, instead of worm gear wearing.

    Well those were both wrong.

    While I was reading and searching I found an answer. Its a coupling design call an Oldham Coupling. The purpose is allows for some error in parallel alignment, though not for angled alignment:

    196.jpg

    Two links on it here, the first at 3.2:
    Different types of Flexible Couplings, Universal Joints and Flexible Shafts from SDP/SI

    The 2nd:
    Oldham Coupling - Coupling Tips

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    I speculated that the three piece design was to allow for some error in alignment, but I felt that a three piece design would end up causing more wear in the dogs as the bushings wore. My feeling was that it was a case of better being the enemy of good enough.

    When you get around to putting your taper attachment together, you should be aware that the number of bearings in the system means that the system is staticly indeterminate. That means that it is impossible to make all the bearings carry the same load even if all the dimensions are perfect (which is also impossible). So, having the best possible bearings on a system that can not be adjusted for perfection is probably another case of trying to make something better when good enough is about as good as you can get. If you can get all the bearings contacting and turning at the same time, then you will have done better that I could.

    Two cents from a retired engineer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nt1953 View Post
    I speculated that the three piece design was to allow for some error in alignment, but I felt that a three piece design would end up causing more wear in the dogs as the bushings wore. My feeling was that it was a case of better being the enemy of good enough.

    Two cents from a retired engineer.
    I don't disagree, though long term I don't really know the outcome. I think regardless which style of coupling, if you have new bushings and clean oil we may not be around to analyze it . I intend on using my lathe, but it will never see 8-12 hour shifts every day. So if it made 50 years the first go around. . .well it might do a 100 years now.

    I very much like your repair and upgrade. Due to my own skill set, tooling, time etc. . .I am going to attempt to repair the 3 piece design I have. I didn't finish yet, so I don't know the result, but I think I can get it operational and tightened up.

    My first step is getting the contact area on the dogs of worm gear cleaned up. You can roughly see my 4 contact areas here:

    194.jpg

    *just a side note: I think it is possible to flip the worm gear 180 degrees, and grind or cut new dogs into the flat surface of opposite side. I'm not doing that, its just a possibility.

    I have a tool grinder. One side of it is primarily used for cutting chip breakers. It can cross and long feed. It can mount 6" wheels 1/4 to 3/4" thick. I took a new 1/4" thick white AO wheel and dressed it the way I would a surface grinder.

    I removed the jig for holding lathe tools, and stuck a chuck up on the table. The chuck holding the worm gear:

    198.jpg

    Getting set up to cut across centerline. With a 6" wheel it was a close thing, but I can fully contact the intended dog, just prior to bumping into other side.

    199.jpg

    Taking a pass here. This machine is 3 phase electric, with forward/reverse, so I can turn wheel in either direction. For a safety measure, I have wheel spinning toward work, so if work jams it just pushes off. If wheel was spinning opposite, it could pull work in, jam, and blow wheel apart. So don't do that.

    200.jpg

    Gradually working the surface flat, I have this dog surface about 80% flat in the pic:

    201.jpg

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    Finished dressing up the dog surfaces on the worm gear. It came up real nice on all 4 contact surfaces:

    202.jpg

    Looking straight down on it, I managed to keep mating contacts meeting at centerline for both directions:

    203.jpg 204.jpg


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