My first Monarch 10EE '5/42 round dial S/N 13938
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  1. #1
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    Default My first Monarch 10EE '5/42 round dial S/N 13938

    Hello All,

    A little about me first. I love old stuff. I'd much rather have a lathe from 1942 than a brand spanking new (insert name). I've rebuilt/restored many things from 60's era muscle cars, Visible Gas pumps, WWII Jeep, M274 Military Mule, etc...

    I currently have an old belt drive Southbend and have reached it limits and it was time to step up to something larger so I started searching for a Monarch.
    I finally found a 10EE that wasn't 1000+ miles away or way beyond my budget. What I ended up with was a 1942 made in May. It has the taper attachment feature and still has the motor generator set-up. anyways on to the pictures then I'll have a couple of questions.






















    It also has an older DRO on it. Unfortunately it's missing one pushbutton that I'll have to try and scrounge up







    Then there's this part. The exciter? I thought everything was supposed to be under the bed of the lathe and not external? I've looked at an awful lot of Monarch 10EE restoration threads and I can't remember ever seeing something like this???????? It works as I saw the lathe power up before we loaded it in the trailer. (This a probably a very newbee question and you guys are gonna tell me that yup that's the way they work)













    Seems it was rebuilt at some point.



    The problems so far

    It has a significant gear oil leak somewhere. You see on the bottom of the apron on the first picture it's very oily/dirty and there's a visibly wet mark under the spindle end of the lathe. Is there a common leak in this area that I should start with? It's way to dirty at the moment to diagnose where the leak is....

    The bottom left end cover is missing a chunk. Is there anyone here that's parting out a lathe at the moment?

    It needs a cross slide nut. The one that's in there has about .100 of backlash.

    I'm sure that as soon as I have time and it's finally clean that there will be more

    The correct color for this year is? I've only seen gray ones and the beige newer ones in real life. This one has green under the gray (gray was definitely a repaint, it's peeling off everywhere) and then some red I assume the red was primer). Is there a PPG or some other manufacturers color code that everyone feels is correct?

    Thank you for your time and I look forward to sharing the steps along the way to my lathe being restored.
    Lance

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    It looks like it was a 550 Volt 25 cycle MG that has been rewound to 208 Volt 60 cycle. Normally the MG is located behind the removable panel on the front.

    The 25 cycle unit probably would not fit, so a free standing unit was provided. It probably will be much quieter than the standard unit, since it turns at half the speed.

    It looks like you have a rare 250 Volt DC panel and the spindle motor has a 250 Volt field. The speed control rheostats are a higher resistance than normal too.

    If you post a picture of the inside of the DC panel, I will see if it is the same as mine from 1941.

    I would check out the bearings on the TA that support the cross slide screw for endplay, and the key and key slot on the other end of the screw for rotational slop before messing with the nut.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance-W View Post
    ...
    Then there's this part. The exciter? I thought everything was supposed to be under the bed of the lathe and not external? ...


    ...

    It has a significant gear oil leak somewhere. You see on the bottom of the apron on the first picture it's very oily/dirty and there's a visibly wet mark under the spindle end of the lathe. Is there a common leak in this area that I should start with? It's way to dirty at the moment to diagnose where the leak is....
    ...

    It needs a cross slide nut. The one that's in there has about .100 of backlash.
    ...
    Hi Lance, welcome to the club!

    That's like the "fireplug" version of a Reliance Motor/Generator. It was probably picked up as a spare.

    There's an overflow tube from the headstock center reservoir that dumps into a tray in the top of the base casting, under the headstock, and a drain port from the tray into the chip pan. It's right in the middle, about an inch below the top of the base casting. There's also an overflow port at 6 O'clock on the front bearing retainer ring. If it's coming from the retainer ring, it's possible that someone has been over filling the front bearing reservoir. DTE Light spindle oil is almost clear and if the sight glass is stained, it can look like the reservoir is low when it's actually over full.

    If the cross-slide backlash is the same at the ends as in the middle, then the backlash can be adjusted out. See this link:

    Cal

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    That is most assuredly a Reliance "fireplug" MG.

    Introduced early 1930's - 1934, was it? - as a unit-packaged common-shaft Ward-Leonard Drive where previous ones had nearly always been "assembled" by mounting motor, generator, and exciter (when "rotating") on frames with alignment to deal with and shaft couplings to maintain. Slightly modified and laid-down horizontally, it became the "inline exciter" 10EE's drive. Where APPARENTLY it too-often overheated its cramped exciter section in the hot belly of the beast.

    The larger, belt-driven, "piggyback" exciter - my September 1942 as one such, and your May 1942 perhaps also, cured the overheating and added better load compensation.

    More photos of what, if ANYTHING, is living in the belly of your beast, and we are off and digging...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    There's an overflow tube from the headstock center reservoir that dumps into a tray in the top of the base casting, under the headstock, and a drain port from the tray into the chip pan. It's right in the middle, about an inch below the top of the base casting. There's also an overflow port at 6 O'clock on the front bearing retainer ring. If it's coming from the retainer ring, it's possible that someone has been over filling the front bearing reservoir. DTE Light spindle oil is almost clear and if the sight glass is stained, it can look like the reservoir is low when it's actually over full.
    Cal
    I intentionally overfilled things today and yes it drained out of the front of the spindle bearing cover (that explains why there was about 2 gallons of oil in what I would call the sump). The view glasses are very old and very yellowed. The only way you can see anything is with a very strong (600 lumen) light pointed inside. So hopefully it's just a matter of the folks that owned it before me pouring too much in everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    That is most assuredly a Reliance "fireplug" MG.

    Introduced early 1930's - 1934, was it? - as a unit-packaged common-shaft Ward-Leonard Drive where previous ones had nearly always been "assembled" by mounting motor, generator, and exciter (when "rotating") on frames with alignment to deal with and shaft couplings to maintain. Slightly modified and laid-down horizontally, it became the "inline exciter" 10EE's drive. Where APPARENTLY it too-often overheated its cramped exciter section in the hot belly of the beast.

    The larger, belt-driven, "piggyback" exciter - my September 1942 as one such, and your May 1942 perhaps also, cured the overheating and added better load compensation.

    More photos of what, if ANYTHING, is living in the belly of your beast, and we are off and digging...
    There's nothing in the belly. Just big and empty. I put a 2 gallon bucket in there when I drained the "sump" I mentioned above. So I guess I'll just run with the remote exciter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance-W View Post
    There's nothing in the belly. Just big and empty. I put a 2 gallon bucket in there when I drained the "sump" I mentioned above. So I guess I'll just run with the remote exciter.
    The motor "cares", but not by much.

    Downside it is doesn't have the "matched" compensation that made the piggy-back MG more stable under load than the inline model or jackleg transformer/rectifier Field Supply rigs.

    Upside is you can "remote" it rather a long distance for peace, quiet, and cooler work area right at the 10EE. Which, BTW, might rate sandbags vs pail. They are top-heavy, even with aprox 300 lbs avoir of MG in the belly.

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    Are there supposed to be idler pulleys on this V-belt model. I can see where they would mount but they're definitely not there???




    If I was to separate the large items I have circled in red do I loose any kind of alignment? I searched for a long time today and it sounded like everything is dowel pinned together so it would go right back together perfect???


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance-W View Post
    Are there supposed to be idler pulleys on this V-belt model. I can see where they would mount but they're definitely not there???
    Yes. Both front and rear on my '42 and '44. '42 arrived missing one, but they are not hard to DIY. NB: With new(ish) A-section belts they may not seem necessary for tensioning. They are, however, placed close to mid-span to ALSO reduce the chance of belt vibration starting.





    If I was to separate the large items I have circled in red do I loose any kind of alignment?
    Nearly all of it, yes.

    Just Firmly Do NOT "go there" until you have enough experience to have good reason to do. 10EE weren't built to be casually "broken down" for cleaning like an M1 Garand, and a cleanup and repaint dasn't really need that AT ALL.

    Even taper pins on shafting and handwheels of a 10EE are notorious for being one-of-a kind hand-executed shop-floor "fits" AND NOT jigged or fixtured to an interchangeable-parts standard.
    Last edited by Monarchist; 12-12-2017 at 09:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    Yes. Both front and rear on my '42 and '44. '42 arrived missing one, but they are not hard to DIY.

    Nearly all of it, yes.

    Just Firmly Do NOT "go there" until you have enough experience to have good reason to do. 10EE weren't built to be casually "broken down" for cleaning like an M1 Garand, and a cleanup and repaint dasn't really need that AT ALL.

    Even taper pins on shafting and handwheels of a 10EE are notorious for being one-of-a kind hand-executed shop-floor "fits" AND NOT jigged or fixtured to an interchangeable-parts standard.
    Are there any drawings or sketches of the idler pulleys? I have the capability and skills to make them but a drawing would be awesome!


    Got it paint it together. Sure would be easier to clean let alone paint in separate pieces though

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance-W View Post
    Are there any drawings or sketches of the idler pulleys? I have the capability and skills to make them but a drawing would be awesome!


    Got it paint it together. Sure would be easier to clean let alone paint in separate pieces though
    Plenty of photos in PM archives. Many of us can measure ours for dimensions. Probably some "spares" around from VFD conversions or part-outs.

    The idler and bearing is the easy part. There's more "work" in making the mountings if one duplicates Monarch's ones.

    Not the only way, though.

    Spring-loaded elastomer-wheel idlers from the auto/truck parts-bin market are cheap and not hard to mount as "onesies" vs the double-wide originals. With a built-in tensioner spring, those should actually work enough better that only one set is needed, rather than both front and back.

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    So this morning I'm still in dis-assembly and cleaning mode. I think I'll be stuck here for a while... anyways a couple of things I discovered and could use some advice on.

    Cleaning the big parts. Sure would be nice if I could just blast the main part of the lathe with water and purple power.



    Pretty sure this is the original color where the Monarch badge was.


    While removing all the covers I found something missing.


    The top V-belt sheave. Is it supposed to be this far away from the spindle lock??



    Then we come to the bottom v-belt sheave. It was running this way. The sheave was just sitting on the shaft loose........ I've never seen a woodruff key trashed like this but then I've never seen one on a shaft with the pulley/gear loose. Something is missing here. I'm sure you guys will know. Any help or advice is appreciated.










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    Good morning,

    I spent my weekend cleaning and ran across a missing part. Can someone tell me what used to be here and what it did so I can start looking for the part.

    Thank You,
    Lance


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    During my cleaning disassembly spree this weekend I also found this problem with the drive pulley. It's obviously not correct but I don't know whats right. I could use some advise.







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    On the V-belt pulley on the spindle shaft is there supposed to be this large gap between the spindle lock and the V-belt pulley?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance-W View Post
    On the V-belt pulley on the spindle shaft is there supposed to be this large gap between the spindle lock and the V-belt pulley?

    Of all the pictures and some lathes I have never seen a 3 belt pulley on a 10EE. On the gearbox drive does the pulley slip all the way on the shaft with the shaft protruding a little so that you can screw a plate on the four threaded holes in it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by labeeman View Post
    Of all the pictures and some lathes I have never seen a 3 belt pulley on a 10EE. On the gearbox drive does the pulley slip all the way on the shaft with the shaft protruding a little so that you can screw a plate on the four threaded holes in it?
    On the gearbox drive - No. It is only about halfway thru the pulley with no screw plate in sight. It was just running loose on there and has destroyed the keyway in the bronze? liner of the pulley. So at a minimum I get to re-line the pulley or find another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance-W View Post
    I spent my weekend cleaning and ran across a missing part. Can someone tell me what used to be here and what it did so I can start looking for the part.
    You are not likely to be missing anything there, it's a mounting position for a control transformer. You need a transformer when your control voltage isn't a match for the mains power. If your controls work well there's no worries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance-W View Post
    On the gearbox drive - No. It is only about halfway thru the pulley with no screw plate in sight. It was just running loose on there and has destroyed the keyway in the bronze? liner of the pulley. So at a minimum I get to re-line the pulley or find another.
    It is the wrong pulley then on the end of the hollow shaft there are 4 threaded holes for a plate to bolt on to hold the pulley from coming off.

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    Here is a picture of a pulley and gearbox showing the plate.

    s-l1600.jpg


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