My Very Own Monarch 10EE Restoration - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Measure between F1 and F2 on the bottom of the DC panel (should be on the left). You should see 120V DC give or take for the first half of the speed control travel, and decrease after that (minimum is dependent on setup and max speed but I think should be better than 24V DC). Again, this is a PWM output that can fool some measuring devices but if the field is connected at the motor you should see something close to RMS.

    Send me a PM with an email address that can accept a large file and I'll send you a schematic with voltages on it.

    Be careful in there, use the "one hand" rule (never put both hands into the electrical bits). There's voltages in there with the current to kill you and it'll hurt the whole time you're dying.

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    So I got everything to work! it seemed that the big hang-up was the Field Failure relay not closing. With the main contactor. I nudged the contacts closed with a piece of wood while depressing the Start button and everything lit up like Rockafeller Plaza at Christmas! Now the field failure relay closes the way it's supposed to. It's worth noting there's a bit in the 10ee manual for the modular drive that mentions adjusting the sping tension on the field failure relay if it's not closing. I imagine I just overcame some mechanical stickiness that was keeping it from closing properly.

    I've been trying to understand the pricipal of operation for the speed control. Prior to acquiring this machine, my understanding of DC motor speed control went no further than "volts = speed".

    Here we go. Upon applying power to the main disconnect all transformers are energized at their primaries and filament current is supplied to the various tubes and the blower motor at the end of the tailstock. The 6NO60 tube (a time delay relay in glass) begins it's countdown and after 60 seconds closes a portion of the circuit that allows the "Start" button to function and close the main contactor behind the headstock. Upon pressing the Start button, the field winding is supplied current and causes the Field Failure Relay to close completing the circuit that latches the main contactor (as long as the overload coils are not tripped and the drum switch is set to neutral). If the Field Failure relay fails to close, it is likely due to the 3C23 thyratrons not providing rectified current to the shunt wired field winding, or the 6SF5 triode tube which acts as a linear amplifier for the field control circuit since the 3c23 thyratrons cannot do any amplifying on their own. This all assumes the field failure relay itself isn't broken. Current is now following through the field winding and the components in the field control circuit (the 3C23 thyratrons and the 6SF5 triode).

    Now when the drum switch is kicked in either direction from neutral(with the main rheostat set at 1150 RPM), fully rectified current flows from the big C16J tubes into the armature (rotor). The current rises in the armature past 25A and causes the Field Accelerating Relay coil to trigger and short out the max speed and field control pots. Maximum current flows through the armature and the series winding of the stator, accelerating rotor from rest. When the motor reaches 1150 RPM, the current drops, the field accelerating relay opens and the field control pot regains control of the field current while the 'max speed' pot regain control of the armature voltage. As load is applied to the spindle, the current load goes up and the voltage in the secondaries of the current transformers goes up proportionally. This voltage is rectified by the 6X5 tube and used to raise the voltage across the armature to make up for the speed drop in the loaded spindle. I'm not sure if that raised voltage is directly supplied to the armature, or if it controls another circuit that that does this.

    If the potentiometer is turned up from 1150 RPMs, the max voltage that can be applied to the armature(rotor) of the motor has been reached by the armature control pot and the other half of the main rheostat begins to lower the current supplied to the field (stator). Weakening the magnetic field of the stator begins to shrink the torque envelope of the motor for any given RPM above 1150. If the field collapses somehow, or the field circuit opens, the motor becomes nearly torqueless and if there's little-to-no load on the spindle/motor, it will runaway. The Field Failure relay steps in and unlatches the main contactor. If the field isn't present and the motor tries to start, there won't be a magnetic field for the current to push against and you're basically heating up a filament in atmosphere (the motor burns up). The Field Failure relay prevents all of this.

    I'm sure I've made some assumptions that are wrong about how the WIAD works or even fundamentals about electricity, but if someone came in and corrected those assumptions, I'd be super grateful.

    Some other things I'm curious about: The schematic for the modular drive identifies a section as the "Phase Shift Circuit." What exactly does that do, and is there a part of the WIAD that serves the same purpose?

    img_20190120_184045.jpg

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
    So I got everything to work! it seemed that the big hang-up was the Field Failure relay not closing. With the main contactor. I nudged the contacts closed with a piece of wood while depressing the Start button and everything lit up like Rockafeller Plaza at Christmas! Now the field failure relay closes the way it's supposed to. It's worth noting there's a bit in the 10ee manual for the modular drive that mentions adjusting the sping tension on the field failure relay if it's not closing. I imagine I just overcame some mechanical stickiness that was keeping it from closing properly.
    I had something similar in my WiaD drive, dried oil was holding a relay closed longer than it should. I ended up cleaning all my relay pivots and stops with some cotton buds and solvent - I recall using toluene b/c I couldn't get MEK right away.

    I'm sure I've made some assumptions that are wrong about how the WIAD works or even fundamentals about electricity, but if someone came in and corrected those assumptions, I'd be super grateful.
    I didn't see anything horribly wrong.

    Some other things I'm curious about: The schematic for the modular drive identifies a section as the "Phase Shift Circuit. What exactly does that do, and is there a part of the WIAD that serves the same purpose?
    It's just the armature voltage supply.

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  6. #24
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    On a related note, it was about 55 deg in the shop and it took the tubes a good 10 to 15 min. to warm up. I fired it up after about 3 min. and drive operation was really wonky, and shut itself down when the field failed and the relay did its job....thankfully! Alittle scary, but my finger was on the stop button just in case. After a much longer warm up, it performed flawlessly for the use time which was a couple of hours. Ah, love them old electronics..

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    So now that's it's turning, I'm noticing that it doesn't want to stay in gear. When I try to engage the open belt, it immediately jumps out of gear. It doesn't seem to have a problem keeping the back gear engaged when I move the lever to select it. There's no mention of adjusting the linkage in the manual. Is it typically something that needs to be adjusted, or am I looking at a bad gearbox.

    I searched gearbox stuff briefly and didn't come across anything like what I'm seeing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
    So now that's it's turning, I'm noticing that it doesn't want to stay in gear. When I try to engage the open belt, it immediately jumps out of gear. It doesn't seem to have a problem keeping the back gear engaged when I move the lever to select it. There's no mention of adjusting the linkage in the manual. Is it typically something that needs to be adjusted, or am I looking at a bad gearbox.

    I searched gearbox stuff briefly and didn't come across anything like what I'm seeing.
    Play with the length of the arm that goes from the lever to the gearbox. Start by removing the rod from one end and see how much travel you have to the stops on each end and see how short of that you are, then play with the stops on each end to get it engaging on both.

    Have you tried to tune the drive? It really shouldn't take 15 minutes to stabilize, mine took less even when used in an unheated garage and was starting around 40 degF. Tuning process is in the manual or you could PM me your email and I'll send something there.

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  11. #27
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    I tuned it not to long ago, but it has always been finicky when cold, never in summer. Probably just a tempermental tube. After the tubes are lit and everything is good and warm, it runs perfect for hours and hours. I might purchase a set of the new solid state replacements as back up though. I am thinking of making a clear cover over at the WIAD end and putting a mirror on the wall, just to look at the pretty colors.

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  13. #28
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    So my 10ee restoration is going pretty good. I've gotten paint on and most of the mechanical work is complete. The field failure relay is still giving me some fits though.

    I got everything back together and I thought things were going great for about 5 minutes. Then I heard some clacking and clicking like a contactor was trying to open/close really rapidly. It might have been the field failure relay, but I think it was the main contactor. I suspected the 3c23 tubes and replaced them with the spares I had. As soon as I plugged the machine back in, I got smoke from the electrical cabinet. It was too quick for me to figure out where it came from, but it definitely killed the 3c23 tube on the right-hand side. I went back to the original 3c23's and things seemed okay, but the field failure relay still isn't closing.

    I'll try to characterize the behavior more clearly when I get back to the shop today. In the meantime, here's what it looks like now.

    img_20200324_172059.jpgimg_20200325_190301.jpg

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    I didn't realize it, but my camera was recording when the failure occured.

    Skip to 3:00 to see the lathe shut down. What you're seeing here happened before I changed tubes and let out the smoke.

    Shared album - machanicalman - Google Photos

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    There are some 10 ohm power resistors in series with a 3 amp fuse for each tube that is what may have smoked on you check them to see if they have been Hot.

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    Whereabouts physically are those resistors? I'm having trouble following the leads back.

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    They are on the back side of the panel you have to pull the drawer out near middle top. They are 10 watt or bigger wire wound. I cannot take a picture as I have striped all that out of my machine.

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    I found the resistors and one of them was definitely open. I went ahead and ordered some 25 watt replacements. Hopefully it's the last thing I'm missing in the drive circuit. While I'm waiting for the resistors to show up, I'll move on to the back gear.

    Right now, the way the linkage is adjusted it will stay in back gear, but when I put it into open belt it just kicks the dogs apart and back into neutral after some awful clacking noises. Rather than attempt to adjust the linkage, I went straight to dismantling the gearbox.

    There didn't seem to be a seal of any kind on the main output shaft. that didn't really seem right. Also, when the pulley was on, there was some axial play on the pulley that was not trivial. I think I might be missing something in the bearing stack up.

    The dog teeth definitely could look better. I suppose building it up with silicon-bronze and filing it down is the way people typically go when making this repair. The spur gears look like they have plenty of life left to me, but you can judge for yourself.

    So, should I be doing something to address that endplay? Is there supposed to be a seal at the end of the shaft?

    Album of my back gear

  21. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
    There didn't seem to be a seal of any kind on the main output shaft. that didn't really seem right. Also, when the pulley was on, there was some axial play on the pulley that was not trivial. I think I might be missing something in the bearing stack up.
    Seems so. There are two or three threads "Right here, on PM" with gearbox rebuilds. Well-written and with decent photos, bearing and seal parts, sources and and workable substitutes. Find those PM threads, it should be easier.

    The dog teeth definitely could look better. I suppose building it up with silicon-bronze and filing it down is the way people typically go when making this repair.
    See above as to the PM threads. With the magic of TiG and grinding, not filing, they've done even better than Bronze braze. "Like new", even.

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  23. #35
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    I dug through PM searching things like "10ee back gear rebuild" and "10ee gearbox rebuild." I'm not finding any that are particularly authoritative or have really helpful pictures.

    This thread seemed to be particularly relevant, but it didn't seem to resolve itself with a solution.
    Monarch 10EE gearbox excessive endplay

    This thread had some info on the bearings and where to get them, but no pictures that helped me determine if something was missing in mine.
    Angular Contact Bearing replacement for Back-Gear unit

    I'm really just trying to determine if my only issue is just the dogs, or if I'm missing a snap ring or spacer that's supposed to take up that end-to-end slop in the output pulley. I've already resolved to address them with TIG rod and grinding, but is that endplay in the output shaft an issue I need to address? The threads I'm finding that discuss it seem divided.

    capture.jpg The retaining nut: EE2367 looks different from the one I have installed on the machine. You can compare it to the one in my album from here. Would that cause the endplay issue I'm seeing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
    I dug through PM searching things like "10ee back gear rebuild" and "10ee gearbox rebuild." I'm not finding any that are particularly authoritative or have really helpful pictures.

    This thread seemed to be particularly relevant, but it didn't seem to resolve itself with a solution.
    Monarch 10EE gearbox excessive endplay

    This thread had some info on the bearings and where to get them, but no pictures that helped me determine if something was missing in mine.
    Angular Contact Bearing replacement for Back-Gear unit

    I'm really just trying to determine if my only issue is just the dogs, or if I'm missing a snap ring or spacer that's supposed to take up that end-to-end slop in the output pulley. I've already resolved to address them with TIG rod and grinding, but is that endplay in the output shaft an issue I need to address? The threads I'm finding that discuss it seem divided.

    capture.jpg The retaining nut: EE2367 looks different from the one I have installed on the machine. You can compare it to the one in my album from here. Would that cause the endplay issue I'm seeing?
    There are two slightly different gearboxes. I have only the oldest, keyed shaft for the earliest of the MG-era "large frame" 3 HP Reliance motor, "round dial" 10EE, and have not YET had to rebuild one.

    The PM threads - ISTR there are more? Cover all the issues I am aware of - at least when "combined". Gearbox work is buried in overall restoral in some threads, stands alone in others.

    Some of those posts are pretty old by now, so Google may have a better chance of finding them than PM's built in search, but "both" is good.

    The endplay you describe does not seem "right". At all.

    It "seems more likely" than some previous taker-aparter reassembled bassackwards or left out a part than it does that wear alone caused it.

    But I am not he to point specifically to what it is that has gone pear-shaped or missing.

    Count the parts you have. Count the parts on the drawing. Then try to match them up.

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    This thread has some good pictures of the gearbox and hardware.
    Round dial backgear oil leak

    This thread had a good picture of all the parts that go into the box for the backgear:
    Monarch 10EE Gearbox Problem

    Great info about the bearing stackup of the backgear output, but the OP used Photobucket to host his images :
    Suggestions on bearing assembly sequence?

    More info good info on the backgear output shaft bearings:
    round-dial 10EE end gear bearings: info for reference

    How to get the ouput shaft off of the bearing stack if it's stuck
    10ee backgear bearing

    So, it seems like my output shaft (EE 2464) should have a different end cap (EE 2467) that pulls it up and against the large bearing on the motor side (EE 2466).
    gearbox.jpg
    Anyone got a good picture of what EE 2467 should look like on a typical WIAD machine?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails capture.jpg  
    Last edited by mechanicalman; 03-28-2020 at 06:48 PM. Reason: attachment didn't work

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    I now have a turning spindle! I finally got the field faliure relay to close after I went through a pair of 3c23 tubes and 3A fuses. Then I started fiddling with the motor rheostat as I depressed the start button. I realized that the whole time I was trying to close the field failure relay, the throttle might have been maxed out with the weakest possible field. Sure enough, depressing the start button and then lowering the throttle does indeed cause enough current to flow so that the relay coil closes. I resolve to appreciate this as a quirk of antique machine ownership. The moment I hit the throttle forward, the spindle rockets to 1000 RPM. That's easy, I know those sweet C16J's are good because I can see them glowing, so it must be the armature control tube. I stop the machine. The 6N7 tube is warm, but I have a replacement, so I swap it. The replacement doesn't look as pretty as the suspect 6n7 that I pulled. Everything works, but it doesn't work well. Below 1000 RPM the motor makes a terrible knocking noise that I thought was gearbox clash, but it's electrical. I can see the tubes flicker in time with the crashing noise. I stopped short of putting a hose up to my ear and chasing the noise down, but I'm pretty certain this is electrical noise. Is my second 6N7 tube also a goner? I have a scope, but I need to know what kind of trace comes off a healthy 6N7.

    Here's a video of me demonstrating the malfunction. I know it looks one C16J isn't firing, but at higher speeds it does. Above 1000 rpm the glow is steady from both. So now I am suspicious that my second 6N7 tube is weak on one side. I will investigate that tomorrow as well checking all the filament voltages. I should also replace the caps and will start sourcing replacements.

    I also found this thread where Mr Bridgeport had what sounds like my exact same symptoms, but he left us all hanging and never concluded the repair, or told us about it.
    Last edited by mechanicalman; 04-03-2020 at 02:13 AM.

  28. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
    Here's a video of me demonstrating the malfunction. I know it looks one C16J isn't firing, but at higher speeds it does. Above 1000 rpm the glow is steady from both. So now I am suspicious that my second 6N7 tube is weak on one side. I will investigate that tomorrow as well checking all the filament voltages. I should also replace the caps and will start sourcing replacements.
    Swap the C16Js, see if the problem stays with the tube or the position. I think I've seen that behaviour with a bad C16J.

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    Hi Russ,

    I did you one better and I swapped the C16J's out for the SCR's from Scissio Controls and the problem didn't go away. I ordered replacements caps for all the paper-type capacitors in the metal cans. Digi-Key had some thin-film versions that seemed adequately spec'd.

    How do most people handle installing these replacements? Do you just solder them in place and let them dangle by the leads? Do you tape them down? Make brackets so they mount like the originals? I'm also going to leave in all the .001 ufd caps since I've since been informed that they aren't the kind of capacitor that generally goes bad. I also ordered some spare 6sf5 and 6n7 tubes just in case the ones I have are problematic. They're cheap and I would like to rule them out.

    Lastly, I ordered 500 feet of 18 AWG MTW wire. I'm girding my loins for a complete rewire of at least the WIAD and maybe the DC panel. Are there other wire gauges I should have on hand before I start this? What about crimp style ring terminals? It seems like the factory just tinned the wire ends with solder and bent them into hooks before securing the terminal.

    Here's what I ordered from Digi-Keycapture.jpg Click this attachment. The "attached thumbnail" always screws up when I upload a PNG.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails capture.jpg  
    Last edited by mechanicalman; 04-04-2020 at 06:17 PM. Reason: Fixed the attachment


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