My Very Own Monarch 10EE Restoration - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
    How do most people handle installing these replacements? Do you just solder them in place and let them dangle by the leads? Do you tape them down? Make brackets so they mount like the originals?
    Adhesives on most tapes just end-up a delayed-reaction MESS. In general, tape should be avoided.

    Back THEN, they also had "Cambric" (woven-tube linen) and waxed linen lacing cord.

    Here and NOW we have a dozen flavours of tie-wrap and more-yet of shrink-tubing.

    Add a rod here and there of insulating material as stiffener - strips of Formica/Micarta, re-purposed chopstick, Bamboo BBQ skewers, lengths of cut weed-wacker line Kevlar... wotever.. and use the shrink-tubing & tiewraps to brace them to each other or to other suitable components.

    BIG caps, such as electrolytics, either the proper clamps, conduit clamps, or angle-brackets and hose clamps can serve.

    Unlike a motorcar, boat, or aircraft, there isn't often much in the way of vibration to be dealt with. Even so, the goal is to immobilize so they don't vibrate and fracture the leads nor rub-through insulation or even markings.

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  3. #42
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    I'd solder them in place. If the leads feel too flimsy you could add wire or shrink tubing to stiffen them up.

    500' of wire is a starting point. You might need twice that by the time you're done. I never did mine, will leave it for a descendant.

    Crimping ring terminals would be a stylin' way to go.

    Before you go too far try watching the relays in the DC box when it's thunking like that. I think that can be an effect of one of the relays being too sensitive.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    500' of wire is a starting point. You might need twice that by the time you're done.
    I gutted one of mine for the SSD conversion, but in Sawzall-ing the conduits and such?

    ISTR there are 80 or fewer wires. Total.

    The "average" is perhaps three feet long, the longest not even six feet.

    So yazz, @ 240 to 400 feet, even with prep waste, 500 should be fair close, and perhaps but 100 crimp terminals, since not all terminations even used them.

    More of each can always be had of course.

    I have had, for ages, REALLY good crimp tools, several types. Many are "ratcheting" ones, and complex to learn proper use of. All were well worth their painful cost.

    Junk crimpers make trashy crimps of dodgy reliability. Then you get to do them more than once. No fun in that atall.

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  7. #44
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    Having completely rewired and restored my 59 WIAD, I think I boasted about using over 1000 ft. of wire. Of course all different gages. Mine had so many jumpers, bodged repairs, and rotted insulation, this was the only alternative. Since I have but basic electrical expertise, making detailed drawings of each wire as it was removed proved invaluable as well as RKeplers factory schematic, and I was able to compare and weed out what was wired incorrectly. Every and I mean every component was bench checked, cleaned, (this does not guarantee that they will work in service, but 20yrs in is pretty good) all resistors and available caps were replaced, and tubes checked ( I have a technicians 50's tube tester found on the side of the road that proved quite useful). But proof is in the pudding and except for a occasional wonky tube and a long warmup, the unit is flawless and smooth. Btw, I crimped and soldered every connection, I'm sure someone will poo poo this, but hey.

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  9. #45
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    Okay. I replaced all the caps except for the four small mica ones. None of the caps were short, but they were all out of spec by 10%-50%. While I was in there, I replaced the most problematic looking wires with 12 AWG MTW wire and checked the resistance of the various pots in the WIAD. Several of them didn't measure how I would expect, so I sprayed some electrical contact cleaner into them and swept them through their ranges until I got a smooth response on the multimeter. I checked the armature end of the main speed control rheostat at contacts S1 and 1 and it seemed to behave exactly as I would've expected (gradually increasing response to the halfway point). I didn't know how to test the field side since measuring resistance at 15 and 16 yields a closed circuit.

    After replacing the caps and wire, I went ahead and went through the initial electrical setup. I could not get the reading to settle for the Minimum Speed potentiometer that allowed me to dial into 98v. The meter just kept jumping around a center point for +/-8v. The motor still has that electrical "chunk chunk" noise from the video I posted earlier. It is unchanged in nature as far as I can tell. I have lots of spare tubes and tried switching out several to see if the behavior changed at all (3c23, 6h6, 6sf5, 6n7). Completing the initial electrical calibration outlined in the manual as best I could didn't lead to anything interesting or new. I will say that I have no problem getting the spindle to 4000 RPM. At the higher speeds (1500 RPM+) you'd never know something was amiss.

    One behavior that is interesting: if I turn the speed control all the way down and then kick the headstock switch to forward, the spindle lurches about half a turn or so before stopping and staying stopped. I'm starting to wonder if the motor itself might have some problems. Given that I can reach top speed and there are no problems closing the field-failure relay at start-up, I think I can rule out anything connected to the field control circuit. The armature-control circuit I'm not as confident about.

    I think next time I'm at the shop I'm going to pull the 6x5 tube to rule out the compensation circuit acting out, then see if my problems replicate themselves when the motor is running reverse. If nothing reveals itself, I'll start pulling the motor.

  10. #46
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    I pulled the motor first thing, the big 5hp GE. Never tried it first, although no real way to try it without having a fully working WIAD, and that was just one more component not to have to deal with. I took it to a big industrial electric motor place, and said make it right, and I guess the shop foreman took an interest, as it came back looking like a brand new one off the shelf, with all the certs and test sheets. I got the impression from the foreman? that this was one of those motors that they just don't make em like this like they used to type of thing. I understand it required a complete armature rewind, who knows what else, etc. Not cheap, but has been running smooth and quiet for all these years since the restoration.

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    Okay, I think I've fully ruled out the motor and the field control circuit. I hooked up a DC power supply to the A1 and A2 terminals of the DC control box. Then, with the WIAD energized and the spindle control in neutral, I ramped the voltage on the power supply to 30v and got about 150 RPMs out of the spindle. It picked up smoothly and quietly. All the electrical clashing that happens when I normally energize the spindle was gone. All I can do is look at the armature control circuit, but I've already replaced everything but the transformers, wires, and the tube sockets. I swapped every control tube for spares to see if the behavior showed any variance and it didn't. Presently the SCR's sit-in for the C16Js, the capacitors have all been replaced except the tiny micas, and the main speed control pot exhibits a smooth and linear and smooth change in resistance across both sides.

    I'm going to proceed with a thorough rewire of the WIAD as soon as more MTW shows up. I am SUPER open to other things to try before I start pulling apart this rat's nest of nasty old wires.

    Shared album - Tim Bogdanof - Google Photos

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
    Okay, I think I've fully ruled out the motor and the field control circuit. I hooked up a DC power supply to the A1 and A2 terminals of the DC control box. Then, with the WIAD energized and the spindle control in neutral, I ramped the voltage on the power supply to 30v and got about 150 RPMs out of the spindle. It picked up smoothly and quietly. All the electrical clashing that happens when I normally energize the spindle was gone. All I can do is look at the armature control circuit, but I've already replaced everything but the transformers, wires, and the tube sockets. I swapped every control tube for spares to see if the behavior showed any variance and it didn't. Presently the SCR's sit-in for the C16Js, the capacitors have all been replaced except the tiny micas, and the main speed control pot exhibits a smooth and linear and smooth change in resistance across both sides.

    I'm going to proceed with a thorough rewire of the WIAD as soon as more MTW shows up. I am SUPER open to other things to try before I start pulling apart this rat's nest of nasty old wires.

    Shared album - Tim Bogdanof - Google Photos
    Puzzling. By this late stage...

    Most of these symptoms are now bass-ackwards from what might be expected.

    F'rinstance.. at full field power, sweeping the Armature power up from nil to max for "base" RPM is generaly LESS problematic than once into Field WEAKENED range.

    Among other things, if/as/when brushes are "mis-timed", worn, holders bent or sticky, tampers failed or out of adjustment range, so that brushes are mis-tracking or bouncing, all that gets worse at higher RPM / lower reserve torque.

    You HAD the opposite.

    Silky-smooth in the extreme top-end, rough at the low end?

    And then - with independent power to the Armature? Low-end went sweet, too?

    Well.. despaireth ye not. At least you have a worthy CHALLENGE!

    Try this:

    Take yer "S" leads clear out of the circuit temporarily. Just insulate them.

    Work the motor as if it were "straight shunt" A1, A2, + F1, F2. Watch the brushes as to tracking, spark pattern, and such. See if anything is MOVING in a manner it should NOT be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Well.. despaireth ye not. At least you have a worthy CHALLENGE!
    That's the kind of encouragement I need right now. Working on this thing has become... not fun anymore.

    I had the same inkling about the series field too. I'll go ahead and try cutting it out of the circuit. I'm also going to borrow someone's FLIR camera and take some video of the WIAD while it's running and see if I can find any problematic connections/wires that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
    That's the kind of encouragement I need right now. Working on this thing has become... not fun anymore.

    I had the same inkling about the series field too. I'll go ahead and try cutting it out of the circuit. I'm also going to borrow someone's FLIR camera and take some video of the WIAD while it's running and see if I can find any problematic connections/wires that way.
    From chats with Jonathan Esar whilst he was working through S1/S2 lead differences for his 1Q, contactor-reversed BICL D510, I suspect that the "special machine tool duty" GE kinematic 5 HP and the Louis-Allis 5 HP had different internal arrangements, each, of compound shunt or compensated shunt (or BOTH?) than the 3 HP "small frame" Reliance - the only one of the three I have had under-roof and on the test bench. Gone off to assist another 10EE "minder on duty" now.

    "At Least" the 3 HP splined-output shaft Reliance, was obvious in its directional bias. Get it backwards, as load came up, it actually REDUCED power instead of boosting it to hold RPM.

    With SOME such arrangements, there are ways to utilize a full-wave bridge so as to cause that to switch as one reverses Armature polarity to reverse the spindle direction. Seldom used, as few apply much cutting force in reverse if they even cut in reverse at all.

    For a 4Q Solid State Drive, it is easier to just leave S1, S2 tied-off. The wider dynamic range of a 4Q drive gives it more than enough guts to compensate for changing load without the help.

    BTW - a darkened room and the Mark One human eyeball can find some types of fault, camera optional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
    That's the kind of encouragement I need right now. Working on this thing has become... not fun anymore.

    I had the same inkling about the series field too. I'll go ahead and try cutting it out of the circuit. I'm also going to borrow someone's FLIR camera and take some video of the WIAD while it's running and see if I can find any problematic connections/wires that way.
    Have you tried watching the DC cabinet - specifically the relays - while this is happening? I have a vague memory of this sort of problem being caused by one of the relays being misadjusted.

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    It’s fixed! It turned out to be grid-circuit related. Apparently, when I replaced the two resistors at the anode of the thyratrons in the Field Control circuit, I mismatched some of the connectors at a terminal bar. When I originally performed this operation, I went ahead and replaced some of the wires because many of them looked really terrible. Some of these wires were connected to the Grid transformers. Specifically, I had switched one of the primaries of the field grid transformer so it was connected to A25 instead of A24. Concurrently, the secondaries of the armature grid transformer were swapped so they were driving opposite thyratrons.

    This came at the end of a marathon repair session where I was giving myself until Friday to figure it out or sell it as-is. I lost my shop in the middle of this and was under a tremendous amount of pressure to get it painted, fixed, sold, and out before the end of April; all while trying to ignore the invisible gun I keep feeling pointed at me that is the COVID-19 pandemic. At around the second hour, I resolved to trace every wire in the serial-matched manual to what my machine had. I started with the compensation circuit because those were among the first wires I replaced when I started the re-wire of the system and thought I had screwed up there. I checked every wire this way and it revealed NOTHING. The secondaries of the grid transformers on the schematic I used are not labeled and the associated voltages were all within 5% when I measured them.

    Time to pull my ace in the hole. Russ sent me a PDF of a the factory wiring schematic that shows the wiring topology of the WIAD. It difficult to read, so I went ahead and put the graphic in Inkscape and colored all the traces to make it easier to follow the junctions. At the same time, I labeled the resistors on the wiring diagram and the schematic to give myself one thing to hold in my head. I’ll upload it when I figure out how to shrink the file size into something that PM will accept but is also legible. I started at the top and immediately noticed the problems with the grid transformers. It fixed everything.

    I put the entire thing back together and wiped it down. I put the craigslist add up right away and it was gone in less than 24 hours for my asking price.

    After I found the problem I came back to PM and found some threads that described similar problems and connected them to the grid transformers. If I had managed to find this post by Leigh, it would have solved everything. Oh well! For the record, anyone experiencing a drum-like sound when the motor is under power needs to start with the grid-transformers.

    What an odyssey! I’m so glad I followed through and was able to fix this, otherwise I would have spent the rest of my life wondering what it was. Thanks for tall the help guys, I really doubt I ever would have been able to solve without all the help. Special thanks to Russ for all the super-responsive PM help. That wiring diagram ended up being the critical tool for me.

    img_20200324_172059.jpg
    Last edited by mechanicalman; 04-26-2020 at 10:18 PM.

  17. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
    It’s fixed! It turned out to be grid-circuit related. Apparently, when I replaced the two resistors at the anode of the thyratrons in the Field Control circuit, I mismatched some of the connectors at a terminal bar. When I originally performed this operation, I went ahead and replaced some of the wires because many of them looked really terrible. Some of these wires were connected to the Grid transformers. Specifically, I had switched one of the primaries of the field grid transformer so it was connected to A25 instead of A24. Concurrently, the secondaries of the armature grid transformer were swapped so they were driving opposite thyratrons.

    This came at the end of a marathon repair session where I was giving myself until Friday to figure it out or sell it as-is. I lost my shop in the middle of this and was under a tremendous amount of pressure to get it painted, fixed, sold, and out before the end of April; all while trying to ignore the invisible gun I keep feeling pointed at me that is the COVID-19 pandemic. At around the second hour, I resolved to trace every wire in the serial-matched manual to what my machine had. I started with the compensation circuit because those were among the first wires I replaced when I started the re-wire of the system and thought I had screwed up there. I checked every wire this way and it revealed NOTHING. The secondaries of the grid transformers on the schematic I used are not labeled and the associated voltages were all within 5% when I measured them.

    Time to pull my ace in the hole. Russ sent me a PDF of a the factory wiring schematic that shows the wiring topology of the WIAD. It difficult to read, so I went ahead and put the graphic in Inkscape and colored all the traces to make it easier to follow the junctions. At the same time, I labeled the resistors on the wiring diagram and the schematic to give myself one thing to hold in my head. I’ll upload it when I figure out how to shrink the file size into something that PM will accept but is also legible. I started at the top and immediately noticed the problems with the grid transformers. It fixed everything.

    I put the entire thing back together and wiped it down. I put the craigslist add up right away and it was gone in less than 24 hours for my asking price.

    After I found the problem I came back to PM and found some threads that described similar problems and connected them to the grid transformers. If I had managed to find this post by Leigh, it would have solved everything. Oh well! For the record, anyone experiencing a drum-like sound when the motor is under power needs to start with the grid-transformers.

    What an odyssey! I’m so glad I followed through and was able to fix this, otherwise I would have spent the rest of my life wondering what it was. Thanks for tall the help guys, I really doubt I ever would have been able to solve without all the help. Special thanks to Russ for all the super-responsive PM help. That wiring diagram ended up being the critical tool for me.

    img_20200324_172059.jpg
    Well.. thank YOU for seeing it through, for working so diligently to "inkscape it out" and for giving the lot of us "closure" as well as a refreshed reminder as to how thorough one must be - documenting our work-wise - lest we get off on the wrong foot and end busier than a one-legged man in an arse-kicking competition!



    All's well that ends well. I suspect the NEW minder on that 10EE's "duty roster" will check-in here in due course!

    Poor lad probably hasn't yet twigged to the reality that you don't exactly "own" a 10EE.

    A 10EE only rents itself new gigolos in line of serial monogamy succession.



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