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    Default Need help with 10EE lubrication

    I need some help selecting the correct oil for my Monarch 10EE. I have a 3 glass WIAD machine and according to my Monarch manual I should use MO-11 which is Mobil Vactra Light for the headstock. But I was told by Monarch to use Mobil DTE 24. Checking in the search of previous posts I found that would be true for the newer single sight glass machines, but not for mine. Unfortunately, Mobil I believe dropped the Vactra designation some time ago and I believe replaced it with a DTE designation. Is that correct? I also saw from a previous post that one should use medium heavy oil for the headstock reservoir. Can I assume that that would mean I could use DTE Medium Heavy oil and if that is true why would my manual say to use Vactra Light oil as my manual states MO-12 oil which is a Monarch designation would be Mobil Vectra Heavy Medium?

    The bottom line I need to refill the headstock reservoir, the gear box, the apron, the tail stock, and the speed reducing unit. I currently have Mobil DTE 26, Mobile DTE 25, Mobile DTE 24, Mobile DTE Heavy, Mobil DTE Heavy Medium, Vactra #2, and Vactra #4. I can buy more oil if I need to but I fear much addition to what I have would make a Saudi sheik blush. If you're wondering how I accumulated all the oils I currently have I spent to much time talking to the folks at Mobil. They tried to be helpful but I'm not 100% sure they were. At any rate I'm most confused right now and want to get it right.

    My machine and I want to thank you in advance for your patience and understanding. All the best, Don Hansen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donhansen View Post
    I need some help selecting the correct oil for my Monarch 10EE. I have a 3 glass WIAD machine and according to my Monarch manual I should use MO-11 which is Mobil Vactra Light for the headstock. But I was told by Monarch to use Mobil DTE 24. Checking in the search of previous posts I found that would be true for the newer single sight glass machines, but not for mine. Unfortunately, Mobil I believe dropped the Vactra designation some time ago and I believe replaced it with a DTE designation. Is that correct? I also saw from a previous post that one should use medium heavy oil for the headstock reservoir. Can I assume that that would mean I could use DTE Medium Heavy oil and if that is true why would my manual say to use Vactra Light oil as my manual states MO-12 oil which is a Monarch designation would be Mobil Vectra Heavy Medium?

    The bottom line I need to refill the headstock reservoir, the gear box, the apron, the tail stock, and the speed reducing unit. I currently have Mobil DTE 26, Mobile DTE 25, Mobile DTE 24, Mobile DTE Heavy, Mobil DTE Heavy Medium, Vactra #2, and Vactra #4. I can buy more oil if I need to but I fear much addition to what I have would make a Saudi sheik blush. If you're wondering how I accumulated all the oils I currently have I spent to much time talking to the folks at Mobil. They tried to be helpful but I'm not 100% sure they were. At any rate I'm most confused right now and want to get it right.

    My machine and I want to thank you in advance for your patience and understanding. All the best, Don Hansen.
    Now I am confused.

    If you do not wish to use what Monarch told you to use, what is it that you DO wish to use?

    Identify ONE for each that you disagree with Monarch about, please - not an inventory listing.

    NB: (Socony Gargoyle) Vactra Light -> Exxon/Mobil DTE Light -> Exxon/Mobil DTE 24

    Identical chemistry? Not perfectly so, but close. Time has moved-on.

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    Sorry for the confusion. What I wish to use is the correct oil for the machine. The manual states to use MO-11 for the headstock. MO is a designation for Monarch and refers to oils of different manufacturers that will fit that class. For Mobil that would be Mobil Vactra Light. That is no longer available from Mobil. When I called Monarch they stated to use Mobil DTE24. I saw in a previous thread that Steve at monarch stated the same thing. However another poster stated that DTE24 is the correct oil for a newer production lathe. He stated that a 3 sight window requires Mobil medium heavy. I just need to know which way to go. Looking at Mobil's site did not state that Vactra Light can be replaced with DTE 24. So if your confused, you now know how I feel! I'm just trying to clear up the confusion, not add to it. Thanks, Don Hansen.

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    I just googled mobil Vactra 1 and got this. If you look at the right side of the page, you will see DTE24
    I would use Vactra oil if it were my machine. I think Mobil changed the formula of Vactra from Sulfur based to synthetic based but they still mfg. it.
    Mobil Vactra Oil No. 1 (5 gallon pail) 175

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    Quote Originally Posted by donhansen View Post
    When I called Monarch they stated to use Mobil DTE24. I saw in a previous thread that Steve at monarch stated the same thing.
    The problem with citing all these "answers" is that we don't have sight of what QUESTION was being answered.

    Not that it is any great mystery.

    Your manual was correct. It still is.
    Monarch's rolling updates that cross-reference old lube to modern have been correct. They still are.

    The recommendations appropriate to my 1942 and 1944 MG-Era "Round Dial" 10EE:

    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...specs-oils.jpg

    ..are adhered to here, under THIS roof, both 10EE, to wit:

    - The fore and aft spindle bearing compartments, and nothing else, get Mobil DTE 24, (ISO 32)

    - The apron also oils the ways, so it - and nothing else - gets Mobil Vactra # 2 Way Oil. They label it "way" oil because it has "tackifiers" in it. It is not meant for the same use as classical Vactra # 2 that does NOT have tackifiers. Nor the reverse.

    - EVERYTHING ELSE gets Mobil DTE Heavy Medium (ISO 68)

    Using the proper lube for those precious spindle bearings really matters.

    Nothing else on a 10EE is all that picky.

    That does NOT mean that one can gain from substitution of chain bar oil, ZF Lifeguard, Arco Graphite, Lcok-Eze, MolySlip-G, Mobile ONE, K-Y Jelly, Astroglide, Boy Butter, Johnsons' baby oil, Butcher's "White diamond" bowling-alley paste wax, Land O' Lakes butter, or.... 5 gallon 20 year-plus supplies of five-year-shelf-life oil meant for some unrelated application.

    Either follow Monarch's recommendations... or roll-dice.

    PS: I don't now if Richard even HAS a lathe. Certainly not a 10EE. If he does? I'd bet you can SEE through it by now!

    He LOVES to scrape, y'see, he is VERY hard to please, and he just won't quit.


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    Quote Originally Posted by donhansen View Post
    Sorry for the confusion. What I wish to use is the correct oil for the machine.
    Jeeze - you're confusing me. Monarch is telling you that DTE 24 is the right oil to use and you're apparently rejecting that because an old manual for the lathe specifies an oil that was subsequently replaced with DTE 24? How are you concluding that DTE 24 *isn't* the right oil?

    From the 1956 manual:

    10ee_1956_spindle_oil.jpg

    I'm pretty sure that the "middle spindle sump gets medium" spec went out after the round dial machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    I'm pretty sure that the "middle spindle sump gets medium" spec went out after the round dial machines.
    Whether ISO 32 or ISO 68 went there, it wouldn't make a lot of difference in wear, anyway.

    Whom among us is running a 10EE balls to the walls, three shifts a day, six-plus days a week, all year long?

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    I have been using way oil in headstocks for years. Replaced it in several "customers" lathes and never had any negative feedback. My Dad did the same thing. If the machine sets idle for weeks and you start it up the lube is still sticking to the gears. Handinge used automobile transmission flui in their carriages and Warner and Swassy AC & AB used transmission fluid in the Headstock in their Machines. DTE light in my opinion belongs in Hyd tanks.

    Read your manual and trust what you read. Many people guess on here and have no clue what they are talking about.

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    Monarch's change to headstock oil recommendation for the center sump followes what they changed to with the single sump square dial. Use that, as the original call out was somewhat strange as the headstock oils will mix with use, as others have said time marches on and lubricants have changed, use monarchs CURRENT recommendation. If you want to peruse the web enough you can probably find a reference to banana leaf oil as being the ultimate but only if mixed with 10% avocado oil

    If you want to spin around more look up Vacuoline 1409 - which may have the tackifiers that the original Vactra had - occasional use don't sweat it...
    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by donhansen View Post
    I need some help selecting the correct oil for my Monarch 10EE. I have a 3 glass WIAD machine ...

    The bottom line I need to refill the headstock reservoir, the gear box, the apron, the tail stock, and the speed reducing unit. I currently have Mobil DTE 26, Mobile DTE 25, Mobile DTE 24, Mobile DTE Heavy, Mobil DTE Heavy Medium, Vactra #2, and Vactra #4. I can buy more oil if I need to but I fear much addition to what I have would make a Saudi sheik blush. If you're wondering how I accumulated all the oils I currently have I spent to much time talking to the folks at Mobil. They tried to be helpful but I'm not 100% sure they were. At any rate I'm most confused right now and want to get it right.

    My machine and I want to thank you in advance for your patience and understanding. All the best, Don Hansen.
    Here's what I recommend:

    • Mobil DTE Light for headstock bearings
    • Mobil DTE Heavy-Medium for headstock center reservoir, quick-change gearbox and backgear
    • Mobil Vactra #2 for apron and tailstock

    Man, I get tired of this discussion:
    Mobil DTE 24 DOES NOT replace Mobil DTE Light
    Mobil DTE 26 DOES NOT replace Mobil DTE Heavy-Medium

    The Mobil DTE 20 series (which includes DTE 24 and DTE 26) are "hydraulic oils", designed for very different service than the Mobil DTE Named series (including DTE Light and DTE Heavy-Medium), which are classified as "circulating oils".

    Hydraulic oils need to be able to work with high-pressure pumps and exotic alloys used in servo valves, seals, etc. They have additives that are ENGINEERED for that application. In general, hydraulic systems use filters to remove contaminants and hydraulic oils have additives to suspend particles so that the filter can remove them. Their PRIMARY purpose is to operate hydraulic cylinders, etc, not lubricate gears and ball bearings. The BEST additives (including rust and oxidation and anti-foaming additives) for gears and ball bearings may not play nicely the alloys used in high-end hydraulic systems (and we're not talking your garden tractor here).

    Similarly, the Mobil Vactra Oil Numbered Series is engineered for altogether different uses. It's designed for optimum lubrication of sliding components, to stick to vertical ways and to minimize slip-stick. Again, lubricating gears and ball bearings isn't the priority.

    Just like there is no one magic carbide grade that is best for every application, or one alloy of aluminum that "does it all", rendering all other alloys obsolete, there is no single oil that is best for everything. 75 years ago lubrication engineering was in its infancy and your choice of oil was pretty much limited to viscosity; not so today. So just because all three series of oils satisfy a 75 year-old specification, doesn't mean that they are the "right" oil. In a home shop setting you can probably get away with using Johnson's Baby Oil in your machine, but if you're interested in finding a better choice, look at the descriptions of the three oils, using the links above, and see for yourself which seems to best fit your use.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Here's what I recommend:

    • Mobil DTE Light for headstock bearings
    • Mobil DTE Heavy-Medium for headstock center reservoir, quick-change gearbox and backgear
    • Mobil Vactra #2 for apron and tailstock


    Man, I get tired of this discussion:

    Mobil DTE 24 DOES NOT replace Mobil DTE Light
    Mobil DTE 26 DOES NOT replace Mobil DTE Heavy-Medium
    We are all tried of it, Cal. Let's fix that with a "Sticky" edit, shall we?

    First up, is to OFFLINE, please, ring up Monarch and ask about their recommendation of DTE 24 instead of DTE Light. Courtesy or necessity, I submit it is time to sort that out and be done with it.

    Sources for DTE Light in LESS than 5 gallon pails do exist.

    One gallon DTE Light turbine oil just ordered from Chief Aircraft.

    Search results for: 'DTE Light' - Chief Aircraft Inc.

    Now . so long as . DTE Light can still be had, I don't know if we want to even GO into cross-references.

    Most especially as they lead to 5 gal or 55 gal units for our mere few-ounce each front and rear spindle bearing chambers.

    If/as/when we DO need cross-ref, I have found these folks do seem to know their lubes and their lube cross refs rather well:

    Mobil DTE Oil Light Equivalent

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulM View Post
    Monarch's change to headstock oil recommendation for the center sump followes what they changed to with the single sump square dial. Use that, as the original call out was somewhat strange as the headstock oils will mix with use, as others have said time marches on and lubricants have changed, use monarchs CURRENT recommendation.
    Did so. DTE 24 is in my spindle-bearing chambers. No harm. No big deal to flush and replace with DTE Light. My sight glasses // drains are "O" ringed now, not sticky cork.

    We do need to sort what they "really mean" w/r DTE 24 instead of DTE Light though.

    IF that has become a "universal recommendation", it would be needless guesswork to blame the single-sump move for it whilst Monarch still does answer their phones.

    They may have done a bit of research on this - Mobil would certainly help with that - and know something we do not yet know, after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    We are all tried of it, Cal. Let's fix that with a "Sticky" edit, shall we?
    Complex topic in modern days......I'd like to see the debate resolved, but not holding my breath. I've always scratched my head on the hydraulic oil recommendation for our types of machines....as they probably have something to keep grit in suspension and later filtered out which our machines don't have.

    I'll be watching the debate intently to see how it unfolds.

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    Excellent post from Cal.

    I have a 3 sight glass WIAD, a 1956. I contacted Monarch and had a discussion with their engineer. Monarch's previous recommendation was exactly as described above by Cal and is a completely legitimate lubrication for a 3 sight glass 10EE.

    Due to the design of the headstock there is loss of oil from the bearing cavities down into the center reservoir. Over a month I loose a small amount of oil from the spindle bearing cavities down into the center cavity.

    The current recommendation from Monarch is to use Mobil DTE Light in all three headstock cavities.

    I chose to operate mine with the single oil (Mobil DTE Light) in all three headstock cavities.

    Ryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by reidry View Post
    Excellent post from Cal.

    I have a 3 sight glass WIAD, a 1956. I contacted Monarch and had a discussion with their engineer. Monarch's previous recommendation was exactly as described above by Cal and is a completely legitimate lubrication for a 3 sight glass 10EE.

    Due to the design of the headstock there is loss of oil from the bearing cavities down into the center reservoir. Over a month I loose a small amount of oil from the spindle bearing cavities down into the center cavity.

    The current recommendation from Monarch is to use Mobil DTE Light in all three headstock cavities.
    That is MARVELOUS news! Let us get it "stickfied" PLEASE"

    If you wonder why the long-running confusion?

    PM is eminently searchable.

    Some years ago now, Cal pasted the THEN current info from Monarch.. and it called for DTE 24, rather than DTE Light.

    Just within THIS month, what happens but that another PM Pilgrim's current post sez Monarch told HIM to use DTE 24 as well.

    See post #1, this very thread.

    W E ... N E E D ... A ... S T I C K Y


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    ...

    Some years ago now, Cal pasted the THEN current info from Monarch.. and it called for DTE 24, rather than DTE Light.

    ...
    Bill, I sure don't remember doing that. I've always pushed back against the idea of using DTE 24 for spindle bearings. I don't know what Monarch's expertise in the area of lubrication is these days. I do know that they've got a fairly small engineering staff. It may be that they have the world's leading authority on machine tool lubrication; but then again, it may just be that one of their technicians called Mobil's lubrication tech line and got some bad information. I've certainly had mixed results there, sometimes you'll get a very knowledgeable engineer and other times not so much.

    McMaster-Carr carries Mobil DTE Light and Heavy-Medium in gallon jugs for $28 a gallon (as of this writing):
    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Bill, I sure don't remember doing that.
    Mea Culpa. As happens, you were re-quoting Dan Z. It was HE who had directly quoted Steve Andrews at Monarch - these two sequential posts:

    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...2/#post1614932

    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...1/#post1614961

    At the time ... I took it as "Gospel from the Oracle(s)", saved a screenshot as a .pdf, and ordered DTE 24 and the rest from goenco!


    I've always pushed back against the idea of using DTE 24 for spindle bearings. I don't know what Monarch's expertise in the area of lubrication is these days. I do know that they've got a fairly small engineering staff. It may be that they have the world's leading authority on machine tool lubrication; but then again, it may just be that one of their technicians called Mobil's lubrication tech line and got some bad information. I've certainly had mixed results there, sometimes you'll get a very knowledgeable engineer and other times not so much.
    I ass u me 'ed that Steve - and Monarch for a hundred years before him - had plenty of Mobil-help-fu at a better grade than we Chikn's got on dial-in, and that there was a REASON that DTE 24 had been officially blessed.

    That's why I suggest we contact Monarch, get on the same page, sort it once and for all with a "sticky" we can point to that can cut-short yet-another run through OLD posts and second-guessing.

    Those posts will still be there to start this "detour" all over again, and Google finds them FIRST, 2006, 2008 or so onward. Worse, the PM threads then refer back and forth among themselves to stale information as well as good. I must have had 12 tabs open in that browser.

    Mind. right about the time we put it all to rest?

    Exxon/Mobil will decide to reorganize their product lineup again!

    Lybarger's Corollary...


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    Great and very informative thread!! Thanks!

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    Well, now that this is settled what are we going to debate and spawn hundreds of identical thread over? ... Wait I know VFD conversions vs DC driven spindles!


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