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New 10EE owner - US machine in the UK

Peter.

Titanium
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Location
England UK
I just thought I'd stop in here to let you all know that I've joined the ranks of proud Monarch 10EE owners. I know very little about the lathes except what good things I've read here, never thought I'd actually see one let alone own one. I went and met the owner today, who got it in a job-lot of woodworking equipment from the States. He was a really nice guy and I was completely up-front with him, told him what I thought of the machine, what all the bits were, what I did and why I wanted it. In the end I was the only bidder on eBay despite 40+ watching. I won it for £500.

So here's the machine in question. From the serial numbers I figure it for a 1941 10EE. It comes with a collet chuck and a big rack of collets, has the taper attachment and travelling steady, didn't see a fixed steady more's the pity. The eBay pics made the ways look rusty but it just had a healthy coating of dust and a quick wipe showed the ways to be in excellent condition from what I can tell.

I only have a few pics - I should have taken more really but I can do that in better light later. Please tell me what you think about my new machine. I do have all the covers.

monarch01.jpg

monarchdrive.jpg

monarchway1.jpg

monarchserialno.jpg

monarchtaperturn.jpg
 
Hi Peter,

Welcome to the club!

I think your machine was probably built in the August to September 1942 time frame, based on the serial numbers and build dates of machines in my archive. Most 1941 machines had the T-handle gearbox and typically had motor/generators with an in-line exciter.

You have the electric leadscrew reverse (ELSR) which is nice, but it looks like you're missing the stops and control handle on the control rod.

The flat belt drive isn't very common. What's the top speed on your tachometer?

Does it still have the original motor/generator drive?

Cal
 
Thanks for the welcome!

Cal: As far as I can tell, the machine is all-original. From looking at a few examples it seems mine is the slower spindle speed not the 4000rpm - just going by the style of the dial face.

There is a lever on the rod - is this the one you say is missing? It was easy to miss in the pic above.

monarchlever.jpg

I'd be very interested in gaining any documentation for this machine. In particular, an operator's manual, any parts diagrams and service/lube schedule. Does anyone hold any of this stuff electronically? I have facilities to host files for others to share if it helps.

Can't wait to get this home!

Pete.
 
Ok Bill, fair enough. I didn't imagine that there would be factory manuals etc available from stock for a 70 yr old machine. $75 is a small price to pay for factory literature.

Thanks again.
 
Peter,

There is a 1942 round-dial manual here:
www.metalillness.com :: View topic - Monarch 10ee Manuals

Monarch does a nice job putting together a custom manual and assembly drawing set for square-dial machines, but it's not what it could be. For example, I don't think they provide the correct headstock assembly drawing for older square-dials (with 3 oil level sight glasses); they give you the drawing for the redesigned headstock with a single oil level sight glass... The 1965 manual at the above site is an example of a typical square-dial document package.

On the round-dial front they don't have much beyond the above manual. Monarch considers the round-dial drawings, etc., "obsolete/discarded". AFIK, none of the drawings have been discarded, just tossed in the "catacombs" and virtually impossible to find.

One thing that they do provide for both machines is the build sheet for the lathe, which shows its original configuration and who ordered it.

Bill,

What did they provide you for your $75?

Cal
 
I spoke to Terrie about this at length some years back and she told me that what they had for round-dial manuals was very limited. It would be interesting to know if they managed to improve what they have to offer for round-dials.

Have you compared your parts pictures to those in the online version of the manual? There's a number of minor issues with that one and it's basically the same as another version that I have, the August 1, 1942 revision.

What's the drawing number for your electrical diagram? Last I checked the only round-dial electrical diagram that Monarch had was EE-2764. There were also diagrams EE-2452 and EE-2679 and probably some others that I'm not aware of.

Did the wipers fit? I ordered a set years back and only a couple were the right ones. I called and they said that what they sent was all they had. They took back the ones I couldn't use. I was never able to get the correct EE- numbers for the correct wipers, although guys have reported that they got the right wipers. If you have the EE- numbers, please post them. I wound up making wipers from F1 felt and would recommend that approach to others.

Cal
 
Peter,

There is a 1942 round-dial manual here:
www.metalillness.com :: View topic - Monarch 10ee Manuals

Monarch does a nice job putting together a custom manual and assembly drawing set for square-dial machines, but it's not what it could be. For example, I don't think they provide the correct headstock assembly drawing for older square-dials (with 3 oil level sight glasses); they give you the drawing for the redesigned headstock with a single oil level sight glass... The 1965 manual at the above site is an example of a typical square-dial document package.

On the round-dial front they don't have much beyond the above manual. Monarch considers the round-dial drawings, etc., "obsolete/discarded". AFIK, none of the drawings have been discarded, just tossed in the "catacombs" and virtually impossible to find.

One thing that they do provide for both machines is the build sheet for the lathe, which shows its original configuration and who ordered it.

Bill,

What did they provide you for your $75?

Cal

Cal, thanks for the link.

I can't say that I have enough interest in knowing the original order details (especially since they might not be forthcoming) to warrant spending money plus shipping for nothing more than the downloaded manual. I find the manual in the link difficult to read though so I've downloaded it and tidied it up significantly, plus reduced the filesize by a factor of ten.
 
For my 61 lathe the manual doesn't even have a list of what the part name is, just the numbers pointing to a part. Could save Terrie some grief if I knew what is what. I might be spoiled by my Deere manuals though, even pricing online from my local dealer.

I received no original order details either but the big wiring diagrams were nice. Not having to run to a computer is convenient also.

Tim
 
?? Have another look. Going by my '42 round-dial, there is a simplicty to it that keeps gobs of verbiage from cluttering up the parts pictures.

- The drawing itself is called a 'Parts Picture' and has a number.

- The part ON said 'picture' has ONLY a number, never a description.

ELSEWHERE in the parts list pages, the sub-system (headstock, et al) and its 'Parts Picture ' have a list of the numbered parts ON that 'Parts Picture' ....AKA drawing or page.

That LIST is the only place there is a textual 'name' for the part.

A plus is that any 'common' parts used in several places - fasteners, mostly - but not exclusively, are still directly found.

So long as you know headstock from tailstock and can tell a taper pin from a John Deere tractor, you should be able to find the 'proper' number and nomenclature straightaway.

Bill

MortyNTenon was asking about a square dial. There's a large difference between the round dial and square dial documentation. Square dials have no photographs with named parts. Go to Cal's link above and review the 1965 manual to compare it with the round dial information you're familiar with.

Please forgive the vulgarity but it's a direct quote from a dear mentor over a half century ago, "Never try to shit above your asshole." :nono:

Fasteners can be a problem, modern SHCS are not direct replacements for those used on earlier Monarch machines. The current standards for SHCS were not in place when those machines were built, you'll find smaller hex sockets and head diameters used on the original hardware than what is standard now and has been for at least fifty years. A new SHCS won't fit the counterbore Monarch provided. Common? Not now.
 
ROUND dial manuals have no 'photographs with named parts', either.

Yah gots to look 'em up. That WAS the point. ...
I think the point was that unlike the round-dial manual, there is no list in the square-dial manual that tells you the name of a part.

For example, square-dial parts sheet 154 shows part number EE-1102, but there is no way to tell what it's called. The round-dial manual shows the same part on parts picture E-2-A, number 61. For convenience, I refer to this round-dial part as "E2A-61". If you go to the Parts List section of the round-dial manual, you will find the "Headstock Parts List -- For Parts Picture No. E-2-A". There you can look up part number 61 and see that it's called the "Spindle Clutch Fork". When ordering round-dial parts you were asked to include the name of the part, the part picture number and the parts picture number.

Unfortunately, some versions of the round-dial manual, including the online version, have a number of errors in the labels for the parts pictures vs. those for the parts lists. For example, Parts Picture E-6 is labeled "Apron" but shows the parts for the carriage with regular cross-feed screw; the apron parts are shown on E-7, which is titled "Carriage with Regular Screw". Starting with E-6 there are a number of transpositions of that sort. The parts lists seem to be correctly labeled, so the "Apron Handwheel" (EE-2091 in the square-dial manual) should be referred to as "E6-4" not "E7-4".

By the way, EE-1102 is an example of a first generation round-dial part that is still in use.

I would be nice to go through and build a spreadsheet that lists the round-dial parts picture and number with the corresponding square-dial parts sheet and EE- number.

Cal
 
I was due to collect my machine today but had a breakdown and ran out of time, blown alternator regulator. I did pop round though and take some photos of a few spare parts that were in with the lot. Most is just junk - I'm pretty sure that none of the shafts and gears are Monarch - I'm putting up photos of them just to be sure. There are a couple of bits I am not sure on. A piece of casting that looks like it might clamp to a flat way, with a hook shaped end to it and a long thin lever with a pivot about 1/3 along, flattened one end with a tag the other. Pretty sure the second piece isn't Monarch but not sure on the first.

casting.jpg levercrank.jpg lggears.jpg smgears.jpg



Please could you guys have a look at these parts, I don't want to miss something vital.

There's also a D1-3 fitting with a large pie-cut end to it. Looks to me like some kind of rescue collet. Anyone recognise that?

colletchuck.jpg
 
500 quid for a 10EE. Whatever happened to the spiritual home of the the home shop machinist? Did everyone stop? I have seen a bunch of DSG, Hardinge etc on Ebay there go for a fraction of what they would fetch in Austria or Germany.

Glad you got it before it ended on a scrap heap.
 
I was due to collect my machine today but ... I'm pretty sure that none of the shafts and gears are Monarch ... There are a couple of bits I am not sure on. A piece of casting that looks like it might clamp to a flat way, with a hook shaped end to it and a long thin lever with a pivot about 1/3 along, flattened one end with a tag the other. ...

View attachment 68471
The casting at the bottom of the above photo looks like the bed clamp for a taper attachment. It holds the end of a threaded rod that keeps the slide in place, relative to the bed, as the carriage moves.

Cal
 
"There's also a D1-3 fitting with a large pie-cut end to it. Looks to me like some kind of rescue collet. Anyone recognise that?"

A shop-made pot collet, it would appear.

Hardinge made these with a 5C. Several interchangeable collets are available, all of these being soft so they may be machined to retain a particular workpiece of rather thin material.

Check out the rear (D1-3" end) and see if there is a 5C thread. If so, you can drive out the interior. The exterior either screws off (2-3/16"-10 thread) or is cammed off (4º taper).
 
Thanks Peter. It does indeed have a Hardinge 4" 5c step collet in it. There's no maker's name on the adapter and it's made form a solid chunk of cast iron. There's a fingertip-sized casting flaw in the bore though so it's probably just shop made. Collet fits nice though.

Cal: I think you're right about the mystery casting, there's a rod out the back coming off the taper attachment with nothing but a pair of locknuts on the end.

The rack of collets I have is a full set of 2J by Hardinge, in 32ths from 1/16th up to an inch and 16ths thereafter to 1 3/8". A couple of duplicates and a 7/8 square. Seem to be very uncommon over here.

collets.jpg
 
Perhaps at least ordered earlier, and may or may not have shipped that late. Note the aluminium dial.

My 17120 round (brass) dial, piggy-back MG, dual A-section vee-belt, but same direct-on-spindle power traverse flat belt rig, was ordered around December of '41, but is already known to have shipped later (September of '42, to Ford) than some 10EE with earlier S/N, one of which went to Canada, for example.

One supposes that some UK / Commonwealth orders were still getting priority bumps.

Bill

Bill, would they stamp the date on the bed from when it was ordered or when it was shipped? I'm guessing when it was inspected?

My machine has DPC 1120 CARDANIC stamped on the bed below the serial, and it has intrigued me until I found THIS post on a Hendey stamped with the lower order number DPC 931 CARDANIC ordered on 5/6 May 1942. So it seems mine was certainly either ordered, or inspected after that date.

Pete.
 
I guess I could of worded the question better - of course I meant generated, not stamped. Ships lost during wartime should not have affected my machine - it was only shipped over last year.

I've already sent a request to Monarch for literature. I have the downloaded manual but some of it refers to diagrams that aren't included.
 
Well, I have it now firmly in my posession. I cobbled up a make-shift steel sled the day before from some scrap steel I was cutting up on site and managed to haul it up a sheet of steel onto a small trailer on my own using a 2-ton tirfor winch. Took it back to my works which has 3-phase power plumbed in, fitted a lead and plug, checked the motor jumpers and threw in the power - and the motor fired right up although it was a little noisy. Unfortunately as soon as I touched the rheostat dial the motor let go in a cloud of smoke and flame. I'm guessing that the 70-yr old insulation on the motor leads has cracked up, I know the leads in the junction box were brittle and rotting. Anyway I'm not too upset as it saves me any further wrestling over the choice of keeping the MG drive or fitting a new motor and VFD - new motor and VFD it is!

Can anyone spot the disaster I only just avoided?

monarchload01.jpg monarchload02.jpg monarchload03.jpg
 








 
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