New to me 10ee round dial. Help ID'ing electrical components. - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post

    Working on the tail stock, does anyone have a tip for removing this stud?
    I'm not sure you will get stud out. But the part that locks the quill should come out and slip over the stud. Might need to turn TS upside down and reach into quill bore to push it out. Then you can get it and its bore cleaned and lubed nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post
    ...
    Working on the tail stock, does anyone have a tip for removing this stud?
    Attachment 330067
    I've tried placing a nut on it and using a wrench under it to tap it out, but it seems to be fully seized in there.
    ...
    Looking at square-dial parts sheet 115 and round-dial parts picture E-11, it looks like the stud is threaded into a tapped hole in the tailstock casting. (It's basically a rod that's threaded on both ends.) I would leave it alone unless you need to replace it. Any attempt to unscrew it is likely to destroy it and force you to make another one.

    Cal

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    Agreed, no need to take that out. The clamp for the tail stock quill should come out without removing the stud, but may be stuck in there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Looking at square-dial parts sheet 115 and round-dial parts picture E-11, it looks like the stud is threaded into a tapped hole in the tailstock casting. (It's basically a rod that's threaded on both ends.) I would leave it alone unless you need to replace it. Any attempt to unscrew it is likely to destroy it and force you to make another one.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Looking at square-dial parts sheet 115 and round-dial parts picture E-11, it looks like the stud is threaded into a tapped hole in the tailstock casting. (It's basically a rod that's threaded on both ends.) I would leave it alone unless you need to replace it. Any attempt to unscrew it is likely to destroy it and force you to make another one.

    Cal
    After going back and looking at my manual, the part I am trying to get out is the tailstock plug that goes around that stud. I've tried Kroil, heat and trying to tap it from the bottom with a long brass drift, but its firmly stuck. I can see the Kroil soak down around the stud, so I think its free from that, but its frozen between the plug's outer surface and the tail stock's casting.

    I'm going to keep soaking it in Kroil for a few days before trying more heat and tapping it with the drift, unless you guys have a better idea.

    I do need to get that plug at least free, if not out to clean it as is currently pushed too far in to let the quill enter the tail stock.

    img_1951.jpgimg_1951.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post
    After going back and looking at my manual, the part I am trying to get out is the tailstock plug that goes around that stud. I've tried Kroil, heat and trying to tap it from the bottom with a long brass drift, but its firmly stuck. I can see the Kroil soak down around the stud, so I think its free from that, but its frozen between the plug's outer surface and the tail stock's casting.

    I'm going to keep soaking it in Kroil for a few days before trying more heat and tapping it with the drift, unless you guys have a better idea.

    I do need to get that plug at least free, if not out to clean it as is currently pushed too far in to let the quill enter the tail stock.

    img_1951.jpgimg_1951.jpg
    Unless you have a different TS than my '42' and '44, have flipped the foto 180 left & right, photo indicates you already have the TS off and being held upside-down?

    Cal - or one of the other 'youngsters' - may have better info.. it has been several years since the innards of my ones saw the light of day ..

    Leaving it TF alone was good advice, BTW. You only need these clear OUT if preparing to line-bore the TS.

    That said:

    "Round Dial" Parts picture E-11 and its parts list are in error as to these bits. Drawn goods don't match nomenclature.

    28 "Jaw" is what is showing in your foto? Two each per TS?
    Not helpful to show a curved face in an end-on axial view!
    Gong technical documentation. Posthumously, of course.



    29 "Adjusting Screw Knob " is the CI clamping handle. More "lever" than "knob"? One each.
    Erroneously marked on the E-11 parts picture as 31.
    Gong, etc.

    30 "Adjusting Screw" is your double ended stud. One each.
    Erroneously marked on the E-11 parts picture as 29.
    Gong, etc.

    31 "Thrust pin" squeezes the "Jaw". Two each, upper and lower?
    Erroneously marked on the E-11 parts picture as 30.
    Gong, etc.

    Regardless of how you are positioning the TS, the clamping goods need to move "APART".

    IOW.. You need the "squeezers" to move way from each other. Not together.
    Applying force with a Brass drift seems bass-ackwards?

    IIRC one has to take the "stack" apart, topmost element first, working downward.

    And gently. Simple hook? Bearing puller? Slide-hammer?

    I have the luxury of internal expanders (Breakheart - full set) that I could turn to fit ... then utilize to push the jaws back from inside the bore.

    That ain't the only way to apply force to those. A bar with a fastener through it and a fulcrum can serve to apply leverage against each one in turn. Brass round-headed machine-screw might be wise?

    Usual disclaimer.. "I've been wrong before...."

    .. corrections should be along shortly!

    "It's PM!"

    Messy. But "many eyes", and we get there in due course..


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    If you have a socket the O. D. the same as the bore I. D. or a few thousandth's smaller you could grind a bevel on the leading edge of the socket and drive it in. The bevel to get past the edge of the wedged in piece.
    Don't damage the bore. Grease it
    Some sockets already have a beveled edge

    Edit
    Once you get it flush with the bore ID it should get loose and come out. If not put a nut on the end of the stud and invert the tailstock and tap the stud on an anvil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post
    After going back and looking at my manual, the part I am trying to get out is the tailstock plug that goes around that stud. I've tried Kroil, heat and trying to tap it from the bottom with a long brass drift, but its firmly stuck. I can see the Kroil soak down around the stud, so I think its free from that, but its frozen between the plug's outer surface and the tail stock's casting.

    I'm going to keep soaking it in Kroil for a few days before trying more heat and tapping it with the drift, unless you guys have a better idea.

    I do need to get that plug at least free, if not out to clean it as is currently pushed too far in to let the quill enter the tail stock.

    img_1951.jpg
    I don't know if you have the tailstock upside down or if the photo if rotated, but the photo is inverted from the normal position (the keyway is on the bottom).

    The part you're trying to remove is part EE-1367, shown on square-dial parts sheet 115. You can download a copy of the 1965 manual, with the parts sheets, from Vintage Machinery (link). The part is also shown on round-dial parts picture E-10*, part #30 (called the Binder Plug). A copy of the 1942 manual is here. The binder plug is basically a cylinder with a round chunk machined out of the side, at right angles to the plug's axis. A pair of binder plugs can be used to make a split-cotter clamp, as discussed here. In the case of the 10EE tailstock, a single binder plug is pushed down on a stationary stud to clamp the tailstock spindle.

    I tried unsuccessfully to remove the binder plug from my tailstock. I was able to get it up about half an inch and decided to leave it alone. You can try to insert a prying tool into the horizontal slot at the bottom of the plug and see if you can force it up that way. Another option would be to turn a plug to fit into the tailstock bore, with a flat ground/milled on it such that rotating the plug will cause the flat to push on the binder plug, acting like a cam. (Let me know if that's not clear.) A third option is to drill and tap two holes in the top of the plug and pull it off the stud, like you would to remove a steering wheel or pulley.

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    ...

    "Round Dial" Parts picture E-11 and its parts list are in error as to these bits. Drawn goods don't match nomenclature.

    28 "Jaw" is what is showing in your foto? Two each per TS?
    ...

    29 "Adjusting Screw Knob " is the CI clamping handle. More "lever" than "knob"? One each.
    Erroneously marked on the E-11 parts picture as 31.
    ...

    30 "Adjusting Screw" is your double ended stud. One each.
    Erroneously marked on the E-11 parts picture as 29.
    ...

    31 "Thrust pin" squeezes the "Jaw". Two each, upper and lower?
    Erroneously marked on the E-11 parts picture as 30.
    ...
    * Note that the parts picture that shows the tailstock has the wrong header, as does the adjacent page that shows the accessories, including the steady rest. The headers of the two pages have been swapped: The tailstock picture has the header "Parts Picture No. E-11 -- ACCESSORIES" and the accessories picture has the header "Parts Picture No. E-10 -- TAILSTOCK". (There are several pages like this.) If you go to page 5 of the parts lists, you will find the the sections "TAILSTOCK PARTS LIST -- For Parts Picture No. E-10". The parts listed there all make sense once you realize that the captions have been switched and the actually refer to the picture with the "Accessories" caption.

    28. Jaw, 29. Adjusting Screw Knob, 30. Adjusting Screw, and 31. Thrust Pin are all parts from the steady rest, shown on the accessories parts picture. If you look at the accessories picture with that in mind, it makes sense.

    Cal

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    I don't know if you have the tailstock upside down or if the photo if rotated, but the photo is inverted from the normal position (the keyway is on the bottom).

    The part you're trying to remove is part EE-1367, shown on square-dial parts sheet 115. You can download a copy of the 1965 manual, with the parts sheets, from Vintage Machinery (link). The part is also shown on round-dial parts picture E-10*, part #30 (called the Binder Plug). A copy of the 1942 manual is here. The binder plug is basically a cylinder with a round chunk machined out of the side, at right angles to the plug's axis. A pair of binder plugs can be used to make a split-cotter clamp, as discussed here. In the case of the 10EE tailstock, a single binder plug is pushed down on a stationary stud to clamp the tailstock spindle.

    I tried unsuccessfully to remove the binder plug from my tailstock. I was able to get it up about half an inch and decided to leave it alone. You can try to insert a prying tool into the horizontal slot at the bottom of the plug and see if you can force it up that way. Another option would be to turn a plug to fit into the tailstock bore, with a flat ground/milled on it such that rotating the plug will cause the flat to push on the binder plug, acting like a cam. (Let me know if that's not clear.) A third option is to drill and tap two holes in the top of the plug and pull it off the stud, like you would to remove a steering wheel or pulley.



    * Note that the parts picture that shows the tailstock has the wrong header, as does the adjacent page that shows the accessories, including the steady rest. The headers of the two pages have been swapped: The tailstock picture has the header "Parts Picture No. E-11 -- ACCESSORIES" and the accessories picture has the header "Parts Picture No. E-10 -- TAILSTOCK". (There are several pages like this.) If you go to page 5 of the parts lists, you will find the the sections "TAILSTOCK PARTS LIST -- For Parts Picture No. E-10". The parts listed there all make sense once you realize that the captions have been switched and the actually refer to the picture with the "Accessories" caption.

    28. Jaw, 29. Adjusting Screw Knob, 30. Adjusting Screw, and 31. Thrust Pin are all parts from the steady rest, shown on the accessories parts picture. If you look at the accessories picture with that in mind, it makes sense.

    Cal

    Thanks, Cal..

    I'd agree that could make it closer to "useful".

    "..it makes sense" might still be a bit of a stretch!



    But there you have it.

    "There are no problems. Only opportunities."

    With modern digital photography, and VAST availability of greater space at lower cost of publishing and storage, leveraged off the fotos so many have already submitted?

    "The community" actually COULD make our own replacements for both round-dial AND square-dial manuals?

    ..annnnnd.. gift the work back to Monarch for all the valuable effort THEY still supply to keep us in parts and consumables?

    "The community has been DOING a lot of that work all along.

    A coalesced 'manual' could reduce the repetition workload in that, going forward?

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    Thanks guys. After several days, of soaking the tail stock plug in a combination of Kroil and PB Blaster, I started to see some progress as a lot of the gunk around it's edges started to free up a bit, but it was still firmly stuck. So time to resort to heat. Truth be told, I would have done that sooner, but my last torch broke, when it rolled off of the work bench. I had such good luck with the Master Appliance heat gun I ordered, I decided to try one of their blow torches. $50 and a few days latter, this arrived:

    img_2201.jpg

    It seems to be built quite a bit heftier than the benzomatic one I had before, and it also seems to get quite a bit hotter, even running just propane ( all of the local hardware stores are sold out of MAP gas). With the tail stock sitting upside down in my vise, I heated the casting and the stud for 5 minutes or so, then gave the plug a tap with a brass drift and it fell right out!img_2046.jpg
    The bore hole, for the stud, is packed full of 80 years worth of grime, so I am confident, once its all cleaned up, lubed and reassembled, it will work great.

    img_2048.jpg

    I've finally gotten mostly caught up with my day job, so was able to actually spend some time on the lathe. I got the gear box out today, as well as the head stock removed. When removing the head stock, I noticed the contacts for the two of the control switch wires are pretty bad. Any idea on if its possibly to source these? I am assuming this switch was used for devices besides Monarch lathes so maybe I can cannibalize something else for them?

    img_2178.jpg

    Speaking of my day job, I just found out today that I scored the cover of a NatGeo ski book.
    img_2195.jpg. That also is good reminder I only have 2 months left, before I start traveling again full time for winter, to get the lathe mostly done. We will see how far I get with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Thanks, Cal..

    I'd agree that could make it closer to "useful".

    "..it makes sense" might still be a bit of a stretch!

    With modern digital photography, and VAST availability of greater space at lower cost of publishing and storage, leveraged off the fotos so many have already submitted?

    "The community" actually COULD make our own replacements for both round-dial AND square-dial manuals?

    ..annnnnd.. gift the work back to Monarch for all the valuable effort THEY still supply to keep us in parts and consumables?

    "The community has been DOING a lot of that work all along.

    A coalesced 'manual' could reduce the repetition workload in that, going forward?
    This site is a great resource for these lathes. It's impressive how much knowledge it has accumulated. The problem, is none of it is really organized in a concise, tear down, service / repair and then re-assemble manner that would make that knowledge easier to dissect. Between this site and various YouTube videos there is a lot of info out there, but none of its in one organized location.

    It would also be nice the the forum software here wasn't so archaic, to make it easier to post imagery or even videos... but thats getting off topic I guess.

    I have been trying to chronicle the complete process of tearing my machine down with as much detail as possible, over on GarageJournal.com Mostly as a way for me to chronologically document the process, so that I have a good reference for when its time to reassemble everything. Who knows, maybe it will be useful to someone else down the line.


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