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New to me 10EE ser39962, with drive issues (of course)

teletech

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Hey guys (and gals), I know you have all seen the plaintive cries of WIAD owners already, but I could use a little help.

I knew this lathe had electrical issues, but I also knew it was priced pretty reasonably and came fitted with both the taper turning attachment and ELSR.
I figured it would be pretty easy to use my other broken 10EE (more on that in another thread soon) as a reference and at least make one good one.
Not so fast, the cable bundle coming into the drawer of my very regular lathe is 15 conductors, the new lathe is a full 23. To make matters much worse the owner had electronic issues a couple decades ago and was in the middle of tinkering with it when ... LOOK, a squirrel! So there were several wires disconnected to do some sort of test. The previous owner was apparently following a procedure titled "Instructions for disabling motor field"
Of which I have one page of looks to be a multi-page document.

I connected up the obvious stuff and there are signs of life: The time delay works, then start will turn on the tube filaments and lock the main power relay.
Selecting forward or reverse is less solid, one thyratron flickers in time to the forward or reverse relay going thunk...thunk...thunk, thunk every .5-2 seconds.
The acceleration relay isn't doing anything for what that's worth.

Wires still disconnected (that I know of):
C3 in the relay box makes it's way to the electronics drawer and then I'm not sure what it should be hooked to.
Similarly wire B8 comes to the drawer and I'm not sure where it should go.
One the back of the relay box, there is a short jumper-like wire hanging off post B6.

Oh, and what's this thing on the end of the ways?
DSC_0369.jpgDSC_0368.jpg

I have some various schematics including some supposedly for my machine from Monarch, but no two seem exactly alike.
There is also a FAX from 2001 from Monarch listing solid state upgrade pricing and a printout discussing my machine
Apparently it was manufactured April 10, 1954
 
The dial is to set the reverse speed when using the ELSR and the button tells you what the speed is.

Hal

That was what made sense, but how does it indicate what that speed is without running the motor to turn the tach?

Also interesting, this machine is lacking the usual drum switch in the headstock and has only the ELSR controls.
 
That was what made sense, but how does it indicate what that speed is without running the motor to turn the tach?

Also interesting, this machine is lacking the usual drum switch in the headstock and has only the ELSR controls.

That is correct. The ELSR machines do not have the drum switch and are controlled by the ELSR switch.

I had a modular contactor cycling a while back and I think it had to do with the anti plugging relay, but my 84 year old brain cells don't have rapid access. I think it was a bad brush contact keeping the current sensing part of the circuit from operating properly. I will look at the problem.

Bill
 
That was what made sense, but how does it indicate what that speed is without running the motor to turn the tach?
When you push the button,"Push to Read", the lathe goes the speed you set with the rheostat in FORWARD, so that you can see it on the speedo,
er sorry tach, Then when you go in reverse with the apron control , it goes to that speed that you set.
 
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One other thing, there is a heavy switch housing at the tailstock end of the machine, where the apron control rod as well as both threading and carriage leadsrews screws go into. There is a large chrome knob at the top, with a plate that reads LH, Neutral, RH. Make sure that the knob is in the RH detent. The apron control should be up for the spindle to revolve clockwise, and down to go anticlockwise. If the knob is in the Neutral detent, nothing works, if in the LH , everything works opposite, at least this is the way mine is setup.
 
Thanks, I had noticed the nothing works in neutral part but wasn't sure that was how things were supposed to be. Good to know that part of the machine works correctly. :-)

One other thing, there is a heavy switch housing at the tailstock end of the machine, where the apron control rod as well as both threading and carriage leadsrews screws go into. There is a large chrome knob at the top, with a plate that reads LH, Neutral, RH. Make sure that the knob is in the RH detent. The apron control should be up for the spindle to revolve clockwise, and down to go anticlockwise. If the knob is in the Neutral detent, nothing works, if in the LH , everything works opposite, at least this is the way mine is setup.
 
Got it, makes perfect sense. I guess I just forgotten the tach only reads in forward.

When you push the button,"Push to Read", the lathe goes the speed you set with the rheostat in FORWARD, so that you can see it on the speedo,
er sorry tach, Then when you go in reverse with the apron control , it goes to that speed that you set.
 
Other makers (Cazeneuve ++) - and a few clever PM members (9100?) - have implemented "many" preset speeds so a button-push changes their lathe's personality "right now", as-in going from roughing to finishing or to chamfering or drilling ...or... whatever collection they have set up in advance to speed-up a multi-step task that needs to be done more than once.


That was a 14 1/2" South Bend. It originally had a 2 hp motor and four step pulleys. When making multiple parts, shifting the belt got old in a hurry. We converted two of the 2.4 KVA transformers, like the one I sent you, salvaged from the Monsanto gallium arsenide zone refining line, into magamps. they are run in open delta to a pair of unmodified ones to transform the voltage to 72 VDC to feed a 5 hp motor salvaged from a General Electric locomotive air conditioner. We used three helipots with the counters built into the knobs for the speed controls and used push buttons like the ones on your auto radio to select speeds. Typically we set them for roughing, finish cut, and polish at our fingertips. When I got down to working by myself, the lathe became redundant with a Sheldon and 10EE available, so it now resides in the Flying Tiger Motorcycle shop in Maplewood, MO. I go by to visit it from time to time. The present owner, if anything, takes better care of it than I did. It is the toolroom version, made to tighter tolerances, and will do righteous work.

Bill
 
OK, so progress:
Got C4 hooked up, easy once I figured out it wasn't actually C3.
Determined I had a bad thyratron tube and swapped it out.
Determined half of my EL1C was dead so swapped that as well. Alway keep a tube tester handy, just in case.
My F and R relays don't latch. Knowing what voltage and current it takes to pull them would be helpful as I dig in to that.
There seems to be a lot of voltage drop across my EL1C, what is normal there?

If I select a direction with the controls the F or R relay and FA relay flicker, if I also press down the F/R relay the motor will run (at somewhat low speed) but the armature voltage is only about 120VDC and the F/R relay won't stay latched.
 
I agree with Thermite, check your transformers, there 3 or 4 ( been too long) that need to be restrapped for 230V. Unfortunately, depending on your EE, one or more may not be able to be reconfigured. I remember when I hooked mine up for the first time before restoration, it did almost exactly what yours is doing and after careful investigation determined it was set up for 440v. Good Luck !
 
I meant latching in this context as "will remain actuated after they are closed" and they are not doing that.
I'm unable to meaningfully measure the F/R coil voltage as they fire for only brief moments. I'm sure the collapsing field in the coil will throw off my measurements but it looks like the pulses are about 120VDC

The FA relay will fire but it actually seems to cause the motor to lose RPMs so in order to get the motor to speed I have to accelerate slowly to avoid the FA relay firing. Maximum indicated spindle speed is about 1200RPM, that isn't the end of pot travel but at that point the FA relay starts firing. The shunt winding (F1 F2) varies from 92VDC at rest to about 14VDC at the fastest motor speed I can get. Armature voltage varies from 30-155VDC as I ask for higher speeds.

The AP relay never opens.

Not sure it's relevant but it is interesting that the controls are backward. That is with the ELSR set to right threading lifting the lever turns the spindle forward. I think the only thing this does is reverse the function of the potentiometer relay.

Totally unrelated, the A/B selector on the threading gearbox is stuck. I can pull the knob out but can't turn it.



If by "F or R relay" you mean "contactors", they do not "latch". They must be held-in by their control circuit remaining "active" and at proper power level.

FA relay is "always listening" as well, is expected to react at different conditions, so it "holds in" (or not) but does not "latch" as a Magnetic Starter would, either.

Field power loss detection does not reduce Armature power. It cuts it clear OFF, so we need more info on that 120 VDC.

Meanwhile .. kindly measure the contactor coil actuation Voltage. CAREFULLY.
Also min and max of the Field at min and max RPM request. Ditto.

You saying the Armature MAX is 120 VDC? What is the range at min and max RPM request?

Get a few more actual meter readings posted, one of our far more expert "hollow-state drive" guru's can help sort it faster.

Pure guess, but with a coupla readings apparently limited to half what's expected, voltage-wise, it smells of not being fully configured for 220 V service, but 440, rather, and/or only partially so strapped. That IS only a guess, however.
 
As said, others more specifically expert will have to walk you through the next steps, detective-work wise.

Fear not, despair not. It will come good.

:)

I'm still hoping for that, but while waiting I'm still picking at it.
I've been digging through the F and R contactor circuit and pretty confident the basics of that look good and the problem is that the motor isn't acting properly and that's messing with the contactors.
Today I dropped all the pots to zero and found my F and R relays held in just fine. I could only creep the MIN pot very slightly before things got bad though. At about 15V (GA2 to S1) the motor would very slowly pulse. I'm not sure which is more interesting, the fact the motor is pulsing (spindle rotates about 1/20th of a turn per pulse, 1-2 pulses per second) or the fact that any voltage greater than about 20V makes things go south.
 
So, six months is long enough to ignore this poor lathe I think.
After having reacquainted myself with the machine I can summarize my issues thus:
If I hold the AP relay closed, I can attain whatever spindle speed I choose and the lathe seems to work pretty normally apart from surging during acceleration (could just be compensation, I know I need to tune the pots).
If I don't hold the AP relay closed and turn the minimum voltage pot almost completely to the minimum setting, the contacts will engage and hold but the motor won't run. Increasing the minimum voltage pot a tiny amount will allow the spindle motor to run *very* slowly but it pulses rather than running smoothly. Any more on that pot and the AP relay starts dropping out and then the spindle contactor will chatter, arc, and things just generally are bad.
I guess the first question I have is what can I hurt with the AP relay forced closed apart from being careful to not changing direction suddenly? Is this even safe for testing?
 
I guess the first question I have is what can I hurt with the AP relay forced closed apart from being careful to not changing direction suddenly? Is this even safe for testing?

It shouldn't be a problem. But my question for you is this: why do you think a drive that hasn't been tuned and has been messed with (playing with minimum voltage) is going to respond correctly? Tie the relay closed, tune the drive the best you can, then let the relay free and see if the problem remains. If it does the relay can be adjusted, if I recall correctly it's just a voltage sensing relay across the armature.
 
It shouldn't be a problem. But my question for you is this: why do you think a drive that hasn't been tuned and has been messed with (playing with minimum voltage) is going to respond correctly? Tie the relay closed, tune the drive the best you can, then let the relay free and see if the problem remains. If it does the relay can be adjusted, if I recall correctly it's just a voltage sensing relay across the armature.

I absolutely had no reason to believe the drive should run right with all it's been through, I was just reporting the observation as a diagnostic point of information. I did try tuning the drive but didn't work at it too long out of concern for damaging anything.

Attempting to tune drive per the manual:
Spindle speed control to half-way. Check.
All pots to zero then turn up minimum voltage pot to 98V. Check.
Increase compensation pot to 102.5V. Er, increasing compensation pot actually depresses the voltage from GA22&S1.
So now I'm confused again.
I turned the minimum voltage up a bit so I could get close and proceeded to set the maximum speed, which worked fine.
unblocking the AP relay results in the same failure to hold the relay closed. I also tried unblocking the AP relay while the spindle was already stable and well above the 300 RPM the manual specifies the relay should be open at, also the same failure.
 
I absolutely had no reason to believe the drive should run right with all it's been through, I was just reporting the observation as a diagnostic point of information. I did try tuning the drive but didn't work at it too long out of concern for damaging anything.

Attempting to tune drive per the manual:
Spindle speed control to half-way. Check.
All pots to zero then turn up minimum voltage pot to 98V. Check.
Increase compensation pot to 102.5V. Er, increasing compensation pot actually depresses the voltage from GA22&S1.
So now I'm confused again.
I turned the minimum voltage up a bit so I could get close and proceeded to set the maximum speed, which worked fine.
unblocking the AP relay results in the same failure to hold the relay closed. I also tried unblocking the AP relay while the spindle was already stable and well above the 300 RPM the manual specifies the relay should be open at, also the same failure.

Check the compensation pot value - it should be 200K. Run it across the range looking for dead spots. Also test the 8mfd capacitor or just replace it.
 
Check the compensation pot value - it should be 200K. Run it across the range looking for dead spots. Also test the 8mfd capacitor or just replace it.

The compensation pot call-out is indeed 200K on all the schematics I own, but this one is 240K as is the one in my parts "works" drawer. No dead spots but good call on the cap. The lathe does run more smoothly now at least.
Unfortunately, it is still the case that turning the compensation up *lowers* the indicated voltage.
I have a feeling something is wired incorrectly. The PO was doing some sort of test that had many wires disconnected and some connected to unusual spots. I thought I found them all but now I doubt it. :-(
 
Probably fair to say you by now have "hard evidence" that something was wired incorrectly!

:)

Lemme ask yah about the AP relay:

Is it activating at the wrong level, but RELIABLY/PREDICTABLY so? Responding intermittently? Or is it simply not functioning AT ALL?

As-in:

- open coil winding,

- erratic lead or bias,

- or outright broken lead, at it, or to it?

PM members have fabbed new coils from scratch, and more than once.

Personally, I'd just sub-in a currently-available stock relay and adjust it to match the OEM need.

"Biasing" sensitive relays to respond in a semi-analog manner at a point within a narrow range of current or Voltage rather than simple ON//OFF used to be a common exercise, and is not hard to sort-out on the bench. "Adjustable" isn't hard, either.

And nooo ... that doesn't means yah have to go for packaged "Solid State" ones and then have to wonder if they'll survive nearby switching spikes. Plain old metallics are more durable buggers.

Even so, I had an experimental "Field power too-low, ELSE outright failed" unit around here somewhere that utilized a Zener, resistor, trimpot, transistor, and ISTR all of five-dollar's worth (the "big bucks" in the circuit) of used IRC Crydom SSR.

Someone did that Iron and Copper relay modification wherever needed with the OEM relay choices, after all.

Crydom's just happen to be cheaper and less work, present-day.
Good point, hard evidence indeed!
I have every reason to believe the relay is just fine. It's a NC relay so if the coil were open or not consistently energized the relay would act as it does with my having it blocked as I do.
The manual says it should open at spindle speeds over 300 RPM. It opens when energized. So I suspect strongly the relay is doing the right thing, I just think there is a problem with the drive electronics that means the F or R contactor looses power when the AP relay opens.
 
by god,i now see why thermite has EARNED the right to be crusty-that was great work/thinking spelled out clearly!
 








 
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