New to me 10EE ser39962, with drive issues (of course)
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    Default New to me 10EE ser39962, with drive issues (of course)

    Hey guys (and gals), I know you have all seen the plaintive cries of WIAD owners already, but I could use a little help.

    I knew this lathe had electrical issues, but I also knew it was priced pretty reasonably and came fitted with both the taper turning attachment and ELSR.
    I figured it would be pretty easy to use my other broken 10EE (more on that in another thread soon) as a reference and at least make one good one.
    Not so fast, the cable bundle coming into the drawer of my very regular lathe is 15 conductors, the new lathe is a full 23. To make matters much worse the owner had electronic issues a couple decades ago and was in the middle of tinkering with it when ... LOOK, a squirrel! So there were several wires disconnected to do some sort of test. The previous owner was apparently following a procedure titled "Instructions for disabling motor field"
    Of which I have one page of looks to be a multi-page document.

    I connected up the obvious stuff and there are signs of life: The time delay works, then start will turn on the tube filaments and lock the main power relay.
    Selecting forward or reverse is less solid, one thyratron flickers in time to the forward or reverse relay going thunk...thunk...thunk, thunk every .5-2 seconds.
    The acceleration relay isn't doing anything for what that's worth.

    Wires still disconnected (that I know of):
    C3 in the relay box makes it's way to the electronics drawer and then I'm not sure what it should be hooked to.
    Similarly wire B8 comes to the drawer and I'm not sure where it should go.
    One the back of the relay box, there is a short jumper-like wire hanging off post B6.

    Oh, and what's this thing on the end of the ways?
    dsc_0369.jpgdsc_0368.jpg

    I have some various schematics including some supposedly for my machine from Monarch, but no two seem exactly alike.
    There is also a FAX from 2001 from Monarch listing solid state upgrade pricing and a printout discussing my machine
    Apparently it was manufactured April 10, 1954

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    The dial is to set the reverse speed when using the ELSR and the button tells you what the speed is.

    Hal

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    Quote Originally Posted by 220swift View Post
    The dial is to set the reverse speed when using the ELSR and the button tells you what the speed is.

    Hal
    That was what made sense, but how does it indicate what that speed is without running the motor to turn the tach?

    Also interesting, this machine is lacking the usual drum switch in the headstock and has only the ELSR controls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teletech View Post
    That was what made sense, but how does it indicate what that speed is without running the motor to turn the tach?

    Also interesting, this machine is lacking the usual drum switch in the headstock and has only the ELSR controls.
    That is correct. The ELSR machines do not have the drum switch and are controlled by the ELSR switch.

    I had a modular contactor cycling a while back and I think it had to do with the anti plugging relay, but my 84 year old brain cells don't have rapid access. I think it was a bad brush contact keeping the current sensing part of the circuit from operating properly. I will look at the problem.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by teletech View Post
    That was what made sense, but how does it indicate what that speed is without running the motor to turn the tach?
    When you push the button,"Push to Read", the lathe goes the speed you set with the rheostat in FORWARD, so that you can see it on the speedo,
    er sorry tach, Then when you go in reverse with the apron control , it goes to that speed that you set.
    Last edited by daryl bane; 07-18-2019 at 12:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daryl bane View Post
    When you push the button,"Push to Read", the lathe goes the speed you set with the rheostat in FORWARD, so that you can see it on the speedo,
    er sorry tach, Then when you go in reverse with the apron control , it goes to that speed that you set.
    Put another way.. the general case is that the system SEPARATES the speed setting controls so FWD and REV each have their own value.

    The switch then picks or "reads" the one the operator chooses to make active.

    Both act as "preset" speeds, whatever that "preset" is having been adjusted elsewhere.

    Other makers (Cazeneuve ++) - and a few clever PM members (9100?) - have implemented "many" preset speeds so a button-push changes their lathe's personality "right now", as-in going from roughing to finishing or to chamfering or drilling ...or... whatever collection they have set up in advance to speed-up a multi-step task that needs to be done more than once.

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    One other thing, there is a heavy switch housing at the tailstock end of the machine, where the apron control rod as well as both threading and carriage leadsrews screws go into. There is a large chrome knob at the top, with a plate that reads LH, Neutral, RH. Make sure that the knob is in the RH detent. The apron control should be up for the spindle to revolve clockwise, and down to go anticlockwise. If the knob is in the Neutral detent, nothing works, if in the LH , everything works opposite, at least this is the way mine is setup.

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    Thanks, I had noticed the nothing works in neutral part but wasn't sure that was how things were supposed to be. Good to know that part of the machine works correctly. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by daryl bane View Post
    One other thing, there is a heavy switch housing at the tailstock end of the machine, where the apron control rod as well as both threading and carriage leadsrews screws go into. There is a large chrome knob at the top, with a plate that reads LH, Neutral, RH. Make sure that the knob is in the RH detent. The apron control should be up for the spindle to revolve clockwise, and down to go anticlockwise. If the knob is in the Neutral detent, nothing works, if in the LH , everything works opposite, at least this is the way mine is setup.

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    Got it, makes perfect sense. I guess I just forgotten the tach only reads in forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by daryl bane View Post
    When you push the button,"Push to Read", the lathe goes the speed you set with the rheostat in FORWARD, so that you can see it on the speedo,
    er sorry tach, Then when you go in reverse with the apron control , it goes to that speed that you set.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    Other makers (Cazeneuve ++) - and a few clever PM members (9100?) - have implemented "many" preset speeds so a button-push changes their lathe's personality "right now", as-in going from roughing to finishing or to chamfering or drilling ...or... whatever collection they have set up in advance to speed-up a multi-step task that needs to be done more than once.

    That was a 14 1/2" South Bend. It originally had a 2 hp motor and four step pulleys. When making multiple parts, shifting the belt got old in a hurry. We converted two of the 2.4 KVA transformers, like the one I sent you, salvaged from the Monsanto gallium arsenide zone refining line, into magamps. they are run in open delta to a pair of unmodified ones to transform the voltage to 72 VDC to feed a 5 hp motor salvaged from a General Electric locomotive air conditioner. We used three helipots with the counters built into the knobs for the speed controls and used push buttons like the ones on your auto radio to select speeds. Typically we set them for roughing, finish cut, and polish at our fingertips. When I got down to working by myself, the lathe became redundant with a Sheldon and 10EE available, so it now resides in the Flying Tiger Motorcycle shop in Maplewood, MO. I go by to visit it from time to time. The present owner, if anything, takes better care of it than I did. It is the toolroom version, made to tighter tolerances, and will do righteous work.

    Bill

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    OK, so progress:
    Got C4 hooked up, easy once I figured out it wasn't actually C3.
    Determined I had a bad thyratron tube and swapped it out.
    Determined half of my EL1C was dead so swapped that as well. Alway keep a tube tester handy, just in case.
    My F and R relays don't latch. Knowing what voltage and current it takes to pull them would be helpful as I dig in to that.
    There seems to be a lot of voltage drop across my EL1C, what is normal there?

    If I select a direction with the controls the F or R relay and FA relay flicker, if I also press down the F/R relay the motor will run (at somewhat low speed) but the armature voltage is only about 120VDC and the F/R relay won't stay latched.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teletech View Post
    My F and R relays don't latch. Knowing what voltage and current it takes to pull them would be helpful as I dig in to that.
    .
    .

    If I select a direction with the controls the F or R relay and FA relay flicker, if I also press down the F/R relay the motor will run (at somewhat low speed) but the armature voltage is only about 120VDC and the F/R relay won't stay latched.
    If by "F or R relay" you mean "contactors", they do not "latch". They must be held-in by their control circuit remaining "active" and at proper power level.

    FA relay is "always listening" as well, is expected to react at different conditions, so it "holds in" (or not) but does not "latch" as a Magnetic Starter would, either.

    Field power loss detection does not reduce Armature power. It cuts it clear OFF, so we need more info on that 120 VDC.

    Meanwhile .. kindly measure the contactor coil actuation Voltage. CAREFULLY.
    Also min and max of the Field at min and max RPM request. Ditto.

    You saying the Armature MAX is 120 VDC? What is the range at min and max RPM request?

    Get a few more actual meter readings posted, one of our far more expert "hollow-state drive" guru's can help sort it faster.

    Pure guess, but with a coupla readings apparently limited to half what's expected, voltage-wise, it smells of not being fully configured for 220 V service, but 440, rather, and/or only partially so strapped. That IS only a guess, however.

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    I agree with Thermite, check your transformers, there 3 or 4 ( been too long) that need to be restrapped for 230V. Unfortunately, depending on your EE, one or more may not be able to be reconfigured. I remember when I hooked mine up for the first time before restoration, it did almost exactly what yours is doing and after careful investigation determined it was set up for 440v. Good Luck !

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    I meant latching in this context as "will remain actuated after they are closed" and they are not doing that.
    I'm unable to meaningfully measure the F/R coil voltage as they fire for only brief moments. I'm sure the collapsing field in the coil will throw off my measurements but it looks like the pulses are about 120VDC

    The FA relay will fire but it actually seems to cause the motor to lose RPMs so in order to get the motor to speed I have to accelerate slowly to avoid the FA relay firing. Maximum indicated spindle speed is about 1200RPM, that isn't the end of pot travel but at that point the FA relay starts firing. The shunt winding (F1 F2) varies from 92VDC at rest to about 14VDC at the fastest motor speed I can get. Armature voltage varies from 30-155VDC as I ask for higher speeds.

    The AP relay never opens.

    Not sure it's relevant but it is interesting that the controls are backward. That is with the ELSR set to right threading lifting the lever turns the spindle forward. I think the only thing this does is reverse the function of the potentiometer relay.

    Totally unrelated, the A/B selector on the threading gearbox is stuck. I can pull the knob out but can't turn it.



    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    If by "F or R relay" you mean "contactors", they do not "latch". They must be held-in by their control circuit remaining "active" and at proper power level.

    FA relay is "always listening" as well, is expected to react at different conditions, so it "holds in" (or not) but does not "latch" as a Magnetic Starter would, either.

    Field power loss detection does not reduce Armature power. It cuts it clear OFF, so we need more info on that 120 VDC.

    Meanwhile .. kindly measure the contactor coil actuation Voltage. CAREFULLY.
    Also min and max of the Field at min and max RPM request. Ditto.

    You saying the Armature MAX is 120 VDC? What is the range at min and max RPM request?

    Get a few more actual meter readings posted, one of our far more expert "hollow-state drive" guru's can help sort it faster.

    Pure guess, but with a coupla readings apparently limited to half what's expected, voltage-wise, it smells of not being fully configured for 220 V service, but 440, rather, and/or only partially so strapped. That IS only a guess, however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teletech View Post
    I meant latching in this context as "will remain actuated after they are closed" and they are not doing that.
    A "latching" relay needs NO power once latched. It is de-activated by a separate signal.
    Most true "latching" relays by body-count lived in the telephone and telegraph world.

    10EE don't own any, nor even does a "magnetic starter".

    Those are "self-maintaining" wherein an auxiliary contact holds-in until interrupted, as by a Normally-Closed "OFF' pushbutton, or - their primary reason to exist at all - a mains power loss, wherein it would be unsafe for the machine to "come back to life" unexpectedly, after power restoral -- unless folks had scrambled about - probably in the dark - frantically turning OFF any goods as had BEEN running.

    What you have are ordinary direct-acting relays failing to "hold in" because the control signal that commands them is not "telling" them to hold-in when it should do.

    Roughly 110-120 VDC - nominal 115 DC - at least on the original MG-era - at the actuating coils of the contactors is in keeping with design for most 10EE,

    it was originally tapped-off the Field power generated by the secondary DC generator AKA "exciter". A few 10EE were built with 220 VDC Field power, but they were uncommon. ISTR most were early MG "inline exciter" period, 1940- 1941?

    That your RPM drops MAY indicate that the system is attempting to operate initially with the Field weakened and the Armature at partial power - about half, as you have measured.

    Top-end Armature Voltage is generally above the motor nameplate's nominal 230 V DC. We've seen other PM members post readings of around 245 to 265 off unaltered 10EE.

    "Something" - or some combination of things - is cutting the rations just about exactly in half. No matter WHAT it is, once found, it can be corrected, and probably cheaply if not also rapidly.

    I only have two MG or "former" MG 10EE with Eurotherm/Parker SSD solid-state conversions, no access to WiaD, Modular, nor Monarch-Sidney drive.

    As said, others more specifically expert will have to walk you through the next steps, detective-work wise.

    Fear not, despair not. It will come good.


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    As said, others more specifically expert will have to walk you through the next steps, detective-work wise.

    Fear not, despair not. It will come good.

    I'm still hoping for that, but while waiting I'm still picking at it.
    I've been digging through the F and R contactor circuit and pretty confident the basics of that look good and the problem is that the motor isn't acting properly and that's messing with the contactors.
    Today I dropped all the pots to zero and found my F and R relays held in just fine. I could only creep the MIN pot very slightly before things got bad though. At about 15V (GA2 to S1) the motor would very slowly pulse. I'm not sure which is more interesting, the fact the motor is pulsing (spindle rotates about 1/20th of a turn per pulse, 1-2 pulses per second) or the fact that any voltage greater than about 20V makes things go south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teletech View Post
    I'm still hoping for that, but while waiting I'm still picking at it.
    I've been digging through the F and R contactor circuit and pretty confident the basics of that look good and the problem is that the motor isn't acting properly and that's messing with the contactors.
    Today I dropped all the pots to zero and found my F and R relays held in just fine. I could only creep the MIN pot very slightly before things got bad though. At about 15V (GA2 to S1) the motor would very slowly pulse. I'm not sure which is more interesting, the fact the motor is pulsing (spindle rotates about 1/20th of a turn per pulse, 1-2 pulses per second) or the fact that any voltage greater than about 20V makes things go south.
    If you will be polite enough to:

    - restrict your testing to one direction at a time..
    - tolerate slow acceleration..
    - not care if braking is aggressive or "coast down"

    You should be able to ascertain what max Armature Voltage can be reached by wedging the relays open or closed with fish-paper or other thin insulating material so they are essentially made to be manually operated switches.

    Where 'operation' is done, unpowered, between tests, then powered to test the alternate "setting", AND NOT attempted "live", as-in pushing them about with a dry Bamboo chopstick, optionally tipped with a slip-on wedge-shaped pencil eraser, the classical AT&T "orange stick" having gone sore scarce.

    Not speaking of manipulating the contactors, directly. Not YET, anyway.

    Their several control relays, rather.

    Let's see what happens "steady state", truant relays no longer having an impact.

    Final-drive motor brushes are to be looked-at as well. It doen't "pulse" even when run on but one set, not both., so long as they are functional, not hung-up.


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