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New to me 10EE wont run

unobtainum gear

Plastic
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Location
Bealeton VA
I just got a 1942 10EE.after some general clean up , I tried to power it up last night. I have a store bought box , for a rotary converter , rated to use a 10 HP , and have a 10 HP motor , idler , it runs other machines fine , but when I power it up the contactors on the back of the head pull in , kinda loud humming ,if I try to spin the MG by hand it wants to go one way more than the other. But if left on for more than 20 seconds? the rotary will kick a breaker. The contactors at the head end , in the box that pivots do not pull in ? Also the drum switch behind the head , I was thinking for out of phase , makes no difference. I would like to see if I can get it running as is , but 2nd choice would be a DC motor board to run the spindle motor , 3rd would be to mount a AC motor to the back gear box , and use a vfd. The machine is in good shape , looks like the bad part was sitting outside for a month ? I have yet to find a chip anywhere ? Paint finish has some areas , that I think may be cosmoline ? maybe. Nothing looks worn , at all .
What are the first things I should check to get it running ?monarch.jpgPic is the day it came home , I dont know why the pic's are upside down , sorry.

Thanks Danielmonarch.jpg
 
When I removed the cover off the front , under the carriage there were 3 wires together , ? maybe #4#5#6 Like low voltage. I could not find numbers on those wires ? so it could be , I was wondering about that.
Thanks
 
Could this be #4#5#6 ie low voltage

When I removed the cover off the front , under the carriage there were 3 wires together , ? maybe #4#5#6 Like low voltage. I could not find numbers on those wires ? so it could be , I was wondering about that.
Thanks

Would the 3 wires in the nylon sleeve , tied with a string be the low voltage #4#5#6 connection.

Also , is there some kind of safety switch in the head ?

Thanks
 

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That was tail stock end , Motor gen . Not the spindle motor , the motor gen will not spin on its own when the switch is turned on , even when I help it likes one direction better but never takes off. When it's powered down it spins freely.
Thanks
 
You can check the expected voltage of the machine by looking at the coil on the power contactor on the back of the machine (housing under the headstock in the back, should have an overload button recessed in it). The coil has the voltage embossed in it, it might take a point source of light to shadow things to make it easily visible.
 
I recently picked up a 1945 10ee that hadn’t been run in probably 25+ years. Looked terrible, I read just about every post on the MG several times before I got started. Same problem withe the main contractor until I took it apart and dressed the contacts as they were quite fouled with carbon. Make sure your generated leg from the rotary doesn’t go to the transformer. I was even able to start the MG on a static converter just for the heck of it. I then had to “flash” the MG to get power out of it. Wow that was interesting and I didn’t even have to drop my pants! I spent days familiarizing myself with the information on this site before I got started. There are no quick answers if you don understand how the 10ee MG works, and it’s the easy one supposedly. I’m still fiddling with my 1940 Sundstrand too.
 
"Personally..." I'd pull T1, T2, T3 at the terminal strip to isolate the MG's 3-P drive motor, connect those to the RPC though a starter or disconnect out of my stash, and also..


I was thinking this

- pull GA1 and GA2 so I was sure the DC section was not acting as a brake due to a short on its own downline.

so if the 3 phase starts and runs , hook the 2 dc wires back up , thinking not getting 3 phases to the motor is the problem.

Then see if the MG's 3-P drive-motor would spin-up OK "isolated".

- If so, the problem lies beyond it. Possibly an open in the supply to it that is leaving it to try to start and run with a dropped-phase.

- If no joy when all-else is bypassed? It may have damaged coil(s) of its own.


Going to try that now , Many Thanks
I will keep you posted
 
IT RUNS !!!!!
Thanks to all that have helped . I wired it to a drum switch off a mill , so I had off on and out of phase at the lathe , wired right to the motor leads , the back gear linkage is off a little , I have to go past high with the shifter to get it engaged in high , smooth quit even with all the guards off, the tach does not work ? is that electric and got cut out when I bypassed the contractor ? I saw the lead screw turn , but not the threading screw. I am very happy !!

I may try to make a few chips tonight

What thoughts does everyone have , put in a late model contractor , Get a 5 hp VFD ?what is the drum switch back there for ?

and all along I thought that old iron was the cure for , less eye confusion and scrunched-up posture strain

Thanks again
Daniel

You are the best !!
 
Daniel,

Great to see that you got that working!

I also have a 1942 10EE with the MG. Do you want/need the schematic for future reference? On mine, the schematic was printed on the inside of the cover on the electrical box located near the DC motor. I can upload a photo of mine if you need, but it's pretty hard to read.

Regarding replacing the contactors that are in that box with new ones, I was just taking a look at these in mine which, while they currently work, are pretty worn out from arcing. But, I noticed that the two contactors have a physical "interlock" which prevents both from being held down (contacts closed) simultaneously: there is (on my unit) a lever which, when depressed by the action of one contactor being switched "on," prevents the other contactor from closing even if its electromagnet is energized.

There's probably a clever way of accomplishing the same using a modern off-the-shelf contactor, but I'm not sure the best way to go about that. One way that comes to mind (that I haven't thought through) would be if you could get a pair of contactors with N.O. contacts for all but one contact which is N.C., then wire the electromagnet of one contactor through the N.C. contacts of the other, so that when one is on, the electromagnet of the other can't be energized. (If that makes any sense.) I'm also not sure if such a contactor exists.
 
IT RUNS !!!!!
Thanks to all that have helped . I wired it to a drum switch off a mill , so I had off on and out of phase at the lathe , wired right to the motor leads , the back gear linkage is off a little , I have to go past high with the shifter to get it engaged in high , smooth quit even with all the guards off, the tach does not work ? is that electric and got cut out when I bypassed the contractor ? I saw the lead screw turn , but not the threading screw. I am very happy !!

I may try to make a few chips tonight

What thoughts does everyone have , put in a late model contractor , Get a 5 hp VFD ?what is the drum switch back there for ?

and all along I thought that old iron was the cure for , less eye confusion and scrunched-up posture strain

Thanks again
Daniel

You are the best !!
Welcome to the forum Daniel.

You have what is known as a "round-dial" 10EE. The round part comes from the shape of the cover on the quick-change gearbox.

The drum switch in the AC contactor compartment is for the coolant pump.

The feed-rod always turns when the quick-change gearbox is engaged. If you're in threading mode, the leadscrew will also turn.

Your 10EE will run just fine on a 7.5+ HP rotary phase converter; lots of us are using them.

Here's checklist to make sure that everything has been converted to 220 (there's more to it than just changing the motor over):

This thread explains how the starter circuit works and what you need to attend to when using an RPC:

Be aware the if you shell out the money to Monarch for a round-dial manual, you will get a generic manual and a generic wiring diagram that won't necessarily match your machine. They do a better job giving you a customized manual for a square-dial, but there's still lots of room for improvement. Send me an e-mail if you need the correct wiring diagram for your machine.

Cal
 
Daniel,

Great to see that you got that working!

I also have a 1942 10EE with the MG. Do you want/need the schematic for future reference? On mine, the schematic was printed on the inside of the cover on the electrical box located near the DC motor. I can upload a photo of mine if you need, but it's pretty hard to read.

Regarding replacing the contactors that are in that box with new ones, I was just taking a look at these in mine which, while they currently work, are pretty worn out from arcing. But, I noticed that the two contactors have a physical "interlock" which prevents both from being held down (contacts closed) simultaneously: there is (on my unit) a lever which, when depressed by the action of one contactor being switched "on," prevents the other contactor from closing even if its electromagnet is energized.

There's probably a clever way of accomplishing the same using a modern off-the-shelf contactor, but I'm not sure the best way to go about that. One way that comes to mind (that I haven't thought through) would be if you could get a pair of contactors with N.O. contacts for all but one contact which is N.C., then wire the electromagnet of one contactor through the N.C. contacts of the other, so that when one is on, the electromagnet of the other can't be energized. (If that makes any sense.) I'm also not sure if such a contactor exists.

Thanks , I saw mine has that paper on the back of a cover , hard to see mine at all , if you have a good pic of yours already , yes please email or post that , but please dont go out of your way , the machine runs fine.

I wonder what the lock out on that contactor does ?What is it preventing ?I was thinking just replace , hook it up to the on , off switch ? or does the contactor work some part of the DC side too ?

Many thanks , you are a HUGE help !
Thanks Daniel
 
Many thanks , the machine works great ,thanks for all the help. I believe the machine is in near new condition , other than the rust on everything , that I have cleaned off. Even in the sump , there were some tools , and junk , but not 1 chip or shaving. I bet the thing will run for ever.

Thanks Daniel
 
Thanks , I saw mine has that paper on the back of a cover , hard to see mine at all , if you have a good pic of yours already , yes please email or post that , but please dont go out of your way , the machine runs fine.

I wonder what the lock out on that contactor does ?What is it preventing ?I was thinking just replace , hook it up to the on , off switch ? or does the contactor work some part of the DC side too ?

Many thanks , you are a HUGE help !
Thanks Daniel

Hi Daniel,

My 10EE is currently not operable while I work on it, but from memory, one contactor is switched on for forward, and the other contactor is switched on for reverse. When the motor is off, both contactors are off. So, presumably, if both contactors were to turn on at the same time, I would think that the motor-generator (and possibly also exciter? not sure without further study) outputs would get shorted together. So it looks as though they went out of their way to ensure that this isn't possible.

I've attached a copy of my schematic. Like I said, it's pretty hard to read... I found an identical schematic somewhere on the forums in the past that someone pain-stakingly re-drew, but the only version of that image still available is a little low-res and also hard to read: Schematic for Round dial 10EE

DOC007.jpg

EDIT: Ooof, it looks like when I uploaded that image, it became even harder to read as the forum software scaled it down. Here's a link to a higher-res version hosted off-site:

link
 
We would not be doing you a favour to "piecemeal" side-track to what you are only getting started at having a full view of.

Monarch - and their suppliers / functional partners (Reliance Electric & Engineering, Thomas & Betts, Struthers-Dunn, etc) put a great deal of already-old experience (Ward-Leonard drives for lifts, hoists, elevators, end of the 1800's onward) into the DC-drive 10EE's.

Don't presume that any part of it is in need of change or "bypass" just yet.
Not that it cannot be done. It has been. Just not "casually" nor even economically.

Every bit of it has a purpose. Read more. It will come obvious in bites.

You can ALWAYS do conversions LATER - if you come to believe the need justifies that.

:)
Thanks again , I will look at it and see if I can find the problem , Just thinking to replace a 70 year old part was a good idea.Right now it's running off of a drum switch. The tach started working , but the fastest it ever reads is 850 rpm , I'm not too worried about that. It is a smooth running powerful machine , until now all I ever ran was an Enco 13 x 40.

Thanks , I will see if I can figure the old contactor issue out.
Daniel
 
Hi Daniel,

My 10EE is currently not operable while I work on it, but from memory, one contactor is switched on for forward, and the other contactor is switched on for reverse. When the motor is off, both contactors are off. So, presumably, if both contactors were to turn on at the same time, I would think that the motor-generator (and possibly also exciter? not sure without further study) outputs would get shorted together. So it looks as though they went out of their way to ensure that this isn't possible.

I've attached a copy of my schematic. Like I said, it's pretty hard to read... I found an identical schematic somewhere on the forums in the past that someone pain-stakingly re-drew, but the only version of that image still available is a little low-res and also hard to read: Schematic for Round dial 10EE

View attachment 258960

EDIT: Ooof, it looks like when I uploaded that image, it became even harder to read as the forum software scaled it down. Here's a link to a higher-res version hosted off-site:

link

So thats what they look like, The one on my machine you can barely make out a line or 2, thanks for the pic's. On my machine at the headstock end , there is a enclosure , that swings out , inside of it there are contactors for the DC , forward and reverse , I was watching the sparks as I switched forward, and reverse . what a heavy duty machine , tons of power , smooth , in my running it last night I can appreciate what everyone says , My lathe experience was my Enco 13x40 worlds apart from the Monarch.
Thanks for all the help
Daniel
 
Back to stock . some checking , and in the disconnect box , the bottom of one fuse was not making contact , the spring load fuse tab's had opened up. Pulled the fuse , squeeze the tab closer together and reinstalled the fuse , gave the other 2 fuse's a twist to make sure they were tight. Power it up , ran , out of phase , switched that , all work as it should. That was so obvious.

Again , Thanks to all
Daniel
 








 
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