New to me 1962 10 EE, troubleshooting and repair
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    Default New to me 1962 10 EE, troubleshooting and repair

    I recently picked up a lathe I had been wanting for quite some time, a Monarch 10 EE, it was manufactured 06/1962 and is a square dial machine. I was told it would run on single phase 220v. When I went to pick it up, they wired it up to 3 phase 220v and it ran well. I had been told it was supposed to have a max speed of 4000 RPM, but would max out around 1800 RPM. It seems like it had a higher RPM when I ran it prior to getting it loaded when I picked it up, but after I got it home it doesn't seem to go any faster than 1800 RPM. Initially I did wire it to single phase 220v and it ran, but ended up wiring it up to 3 phase 220v to see if that would make any difference in RPMs, but it didn't.

    20210707_123321.jpg 20210707_192637.jpg

    Most things work as they should as far as I've been able to tell with exception of the max RPMs, although it seems there is an issue with the dynamic breaking. I decided to open up all of the various compartments to look at things and see if I can see anything obvious which needs addressed. Well... 20210731_184557.jpg 20210731_184648.jpg

    So it appears I need to replace some wiring. But...I'm not sure how I'm going to be able to replace the wire which leads to the top of that tube?

    As always, I am open to comments, suggestions, or ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    I recently picked up a lathe I had been wanting for quite some time, a Monarch 10 EE, it was manufactured 06/1962 and is a square dial machine. I was told it would run on single phase 220v. When I went to pick it up, they wired it up to 3 phase 220v and it ran well. I had been told it was supposed to have a max speed of 4000 RPM, but would max out around 1800 RPM. It seems like it had a higher RPM when I ran it prior to getting it loaded when I picked it up, but after I got it home it doesn't seem to go any faster than 1800 RPM. Initially I did wire it to single phase 220v and it ran, but ended up wiring it up to 3 phase 220v to see if that would make any difference in RPMs, but it didn't.

    20210707_123321.jpg 20210707_192637.jpg

    Most things work as they should as far as I've been able to tell with exception of the max RPMs, although it seems there is an issue with the dynamic breaking. I decided to open up all of the various compartments to look at things and see if I can see anything obvious which needs addressed. Well... 20210731_184557.jpg 20210731_184648.jpg

    So it appears I need to replace some wiring. But...I'm not sure how I'm going to be able to replace the wire which leads to the top of that tube?

    As always, I am open to comments, suggestions, or ideas.
    Good machine and good news.

    - Those older "tube era" components, such as sockets and leads and braking-resistor wire and ceramic forms CAN still be had, brand new.. one just has to dig deeper to find them.

    - the Argon Thyristor tubes have had a modern Solid State drop-in/bolt-in replacement for a while now, developed by a one of our members, proven in actual use, and made available for sale at better prices than the gone-SCARCE tubes can still be found for.

    Net-net, it isn't hard to refurb one of these. Nor even all that costly. Just TEDIOUS ..if you were never into Ham radio or similar "point-to-point-wired" earlier-era "pre IC and PCB" electronics.

    NB: The coolant pumps were 3-Phase. I bought Taiwanese single-phase pumps and replaced my ones.

    Otherwise, the Thyristor DC drives only USE one-phase, even if you carry three-phase TO them.

    They don't REALLY even need a lot of Amps, as there is no AC motor starting inrush as MG units had - just a transformer core with a more modest "thump" to energize.

    You do need to determine if it was strapped for 220 VAC or 440 VAC though. It was designed to work off either one with a few minor option settings.

    Checking, changing, adjusting is covered. "Right here, on PM".

    Low RPM is also a symptom of diode (mostly) 'Module" issues. Also covered on PM. Also easily repaired - or a replacement bought.

    Motor brushes, their holders & tampers, and the commutator needs "seen to" and the brushes "timed", new bearings "maybe". Bearings for the motor are cheap. Brushes are affordable. Monarch Lathe is your wise source. They buy them from Helwig Carbon but they know WHICH ONES to buy.. and most of us do not know!

    Same again, Bijur for the lube system. Monarch Lathe know what we do not always know, and their markups are very reasonable.



    Once put-right, all that stuff lasts for YEARS and years, low/no hassle.

    MAKE sure. .you have proper lube in the spindle-bearing reservoirs before spinning-up the spindle!

    AND NOT.. just a fossilized dirt-line on the sight glass window! Reservoirs have been know to leak down. THOSE bearings are NOT "cheap" A new set cost the very Earth, relatively.

    To the good, they are known to last a magically long time ... so long as not abused.

    Job ONE is to not forget that the innards of a(ny) 10EE deal with LETHAL LEVELS of Dee Cee AKA "stick and FRY" or "rectumfried" Voltages...

    .. and work SAFELY.

    Paranoid-level safely.

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    Medic

    Congratulations on you 10ee.
    The tailstock on you 10ee is different than most. What Morris taper is it?

    Hal
    Last edited by 220swift; 08-01-2021 at 04:54 PM.

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    Monarch Machine Tool Co. - Publication Reprints - Model 10EE Manual | VintageMachinery.org



    Monarch Machine Tool Co. - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org


    The first link is for a owners manual for your era 10eeThe second link is for a wealth of other Monarch information.There is a good explanation of the electrical system in your era 10ee either in the manual or in one of the other links on V M.org.
    I had it downloaded but lost it in a computer crash. Bill has already gave you good information. There is a lot of good troubleshooting threads already here on this forum . Use google to search , not PM's search engine. You will get P.M. forum hits on google. .There will be experienced help coming.

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    There is a pump in the apron that lubricates the apron and the carriage. Make sure that its lubricating. They are known to be problematic. Small copper tubes, relief valves and orifice's

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    There is a pump in the apron that lubricates the apron and the carriage. Make sure that its lubricating. They are known to be problematic. Small copper tubes, relief valves and orifice's
    Take "as stipulated" that even if PART of it is still working, at least SOME parts of it will NOT be.

    Hand-lube the bugger as you go.

    I'm delighted with Wurth's HHS-K // HHS-2000 "hinge lube" as we had discovered works a treat on motor vehicle suspension underparts where road spray and salt want to wash it out.

    It carries an EP lube in on a volatile, and that EP lube stays there and makes stuff slide easily for a longer time that most other options.

    No damned "silicone" in it to make PAINTING so b***dy hard, later, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    As always, I am open to comments, suggestions, or ideas.
    You have a square dial Modular 10EE, square dial from the square dial over the thread/feed selector and "modular" from some of the logic being in a black "module" box.

    If you put single phase 220 to L1 and L3 you should have a running lathe. You'll need L2 if you have coolant (I don't see a spigot).

    You might try folding out the tube panel and running the lathe. If you see only one of the big tubes firing that might be the cause of the low maximum speed. If you see that try swapping the tubes and see if the non-firing one then fires and the previously firing one doesn't. Hopefully the problem follows the tube as that's a quick fix with a tube replacement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 220swift View Post
    Medic

    Congratulations on you 10ee.
    The tailstock on you 10ee is different than most. What Morris taper is it?

    Hal
    That’s not a monarch tailstock…….

    Kevin

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsg View Post
    That’s not a monarch tailstock…….

    Kevin
    It is not the 1962 OEM one, no.

    However.. did they not - toward the end of the "original" Monarch Tool Works 10EE series production, (mid-1970's?) also offer a MT # 3 TS that wasn't at all like the OEM ones in general appearance?

    I don't know if we have ANY photos of it "saved"? Though we have seen one at least once. I had even tried to effect a three-way trade FOR it.

    So, yes. Not 1962 OEM.

    This could as easily be an adaptation off some OTHER lathe, entirely.

    Which is OK ... so long as it was fitted so as to line-up correctly, clamp reliably .. "etc.". One-hole, handwheel-operated TS are not otherwise rocket science. They are one of the FEW items that can be adapted without great grief.

    2CW

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    Quote Originally Posted by 220swift View Post
    Medic

    Congratulations on you 10ee.
    The tailstock on you 10ee is different than most. What Morris taper is it?

    Hal
    I'm not sure yet. That is one of the things I still need to investigate. I didn't realize the tail stock was not native to this lathe, but now looking at the pictures of others, mine doesn't look like them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    There is a pump in the apron that lubricates the apron and the carriage. Make sure that its lubricating. They are known to be problematic. Small copper tubes, relief valves and orifice's
    It's not lubricating. That's on my list as well. Not sure where the pump is or how to check into this other than to start taking the compound off and the cross slide.

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    Spent a few hours this afternoon labeling wires and pulled this from the lathe shop I can take it into the workshop where it is climate controlled. Will be taking a closer look at things. I know there are several wires that need replaced, considering replacing all of them while I'm at it. Ordered one of those 500 ohm, 100 watt resistors to replace the one on the unit there that is essentially falling apart.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    It's not lubricating. That's on my list as well. Not sure where the pump is or how to check into this other than to start taking the compound off and the cross slide.
    Covered on PM, with photos. Right side of apron, low.

    Pump cam arm(s) always worn but can be fixed-up.

    Harder to sort is the metering units are clogged and do NOT respond well to attempts to clear with solvents nor air. They just don't.

    Those need replaced, (not terribly costly..) and then you are into tubing UNDER the cross so the whole carriage has to be taken to bits. Tubing alone - also not terribly costly - is, however, awkward, hence can be VERY time-consuming.

    As said "hand lube it" for a while until you make a plan.

    "PS" MY plan is to hand lube it for the rest of my life!
    More important things to sort. Never had a lathe with built-in oiling, so why spoil meself NOW?

    The NEXT human the 10EE employs as serving staff can sort it.

    Meanwhile.. there is a certain.. uh.. "intimacy"... in hand oiling, yah?
    Shows the "curvaceous" old gal you CARE about her!


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    Quote Originally Posted by bsg View Post
    That’s not a monarch tailstock…….

    Kevin
    Your tailstock looks to be from a R series Sheldon lathe. If the taper is 3MT, it should be from an R-13. If it is 4MT, it should be from an R-15 or R-17 lathe.

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    What's the best thing to use to clean the inside compartments? I hear a lot of people use Brake cleaner, which smells a lot like Naptha, which is what dad always used in the garage years ago. Are there other products which would remove the years of grime, oil and the like??

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    What's the best thing to use to clean the inside compartments? I hear a lot of people use Brake cleaner, which smells a lot like Naptha, which is what dad always used in the garage years ago. Are there other products which would remove the years of grime, oil and the like??
    Brake cleaner is for brakes. "If-even". Also expensive as well as harmful to your health. Best to avoid it.

    Now . the other thing to be leery of is steam or pressure washing.

    Bare and empty casting is one thing. Can't much hurt that.

    Intact machinery full of fine fits, crevices where water can be trapped for days, bearings that can be trashed?

    Water and lye (purple power) can be destructive. Very!

    I like slathering on cheap, pumice-free, plain-jane "Goop" waterless hand cleaner. Scrub-in with shoe polish dauber or chip brush.

    It is only a lathe. Not a whole aircraft carrier.

    Let it "stew". The grease and swarf "mud" dissolves. Dig out the big chunks in the corners with a wooden door-jamb wedge,

    Do it again with a chip brush. No real stink. Not going to poison you nor destroy your lungs or vision. Easily interrupted if you have to wander-off.

    Bit of work every third day, and it soon wipes CLEAN with newsprint, paper towels, or those cheap arse made in Inja bundles of alleged "shop towels" that were only good for one use, regardless.

    No harm to wire, rubber, fine surfaces, nor even halfway decent paint.

    And less harm to YOU!

    Try it. It takes crud off your hands, don't it? Works on metal or painted surfaces just as well.

    Gearboxes one flushes with ignorant kerosene. It was what most makers used and recommended. And what the seals they shipped expected to have to survive.

    Exotic solvents can destroy some seals and gaskets. Not kind to non-metallic bearing cages, either.
    Last edited by thermite; 08-06-2021 at 02:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    What's the best thing to use to clean the inside compartments? I hear a lot of people use Brake cleaner, which smells a lot like Naptha, which is what dad always used in the garage years ago. Are there other products which would remove the years of grime, oil and the like??
    I use diesel fuel in a cheap one gallon lawn sprayer from your usual big box stores. Allows you to blast various areas, using copious quantities to flush crud out at a cheap price. Similar enough to kerosene that it won't hurt anything that typically sits in oil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    I use diesel fuel in a cheap one gallon lawn sprayer from your usual big box stores. Allows you to blast various areas, using copious quantities to flush crud out at a cheap price. Similar enough to kerosene that it won't hurt anything that typically sits in oil.
    I HAVE .. a couple... of those "wand" blasters for use with the air compressor.

    Engine Cleaning Gun | Northern Tool + Equipment

    ISTR H-F has one much cheape?
    They'll suck the kerosene, Varsol, Diesel - whatever - through a line, as needed, but ...

    I no longer have the environment that can deal with any significant amount of it as it comes back OFF the machines, so they have been idle for ages.

    If you can move the machine onto a vis-queen polyvinly sheet, protected with a sacrificial olefin tarp over top of it, then pick up the edges with a nailed-up 1-by "box" as an in-place catchment basin to control the effluvia?

    Then you have more options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    I like slathering on cheap, pumice-free, plain-jane "Goop" waterless hand cleaner. Scrub-in with shoe polish dauber or chip brush.

    It is only a lathe. Not a whole aircraft carrier.

    Let it "stew". The grease and swarf "mud" dissolves. Dig out the big chunks in the corners with a wooden door-jamb wedge,

    Do it again with a chip brush. No real stink. Not going to poison you nor destroy your lungs or vision. Easily interrupted if you have to wander-off.

    Bit of work every third day, and it soon wipes CLEAN with newsprint, paper towels, or those cheap arse made in Inja bundles of alleged "shop towels" that were only good for one use, regardless.

    No harm to wire, rubber, fine surfaces, nor even halfway decent paint.

    And less harm to YOU!

    Try it. It takes crud off your hands, don't it? Works on metal or painted surfaces just as well.

    Gearboxes one flushes with ignorant kerosene. It was what most makers used and recommended. And what the seals they shipped expected to have to survive.

    Exotic solvents can destroy some seals and gaskets. Not kind to non-metallic bearing cages, either.
    Wow, never thought out using Goop, actually got some in the shop that I use to clean up with after I'm done working. This is a great idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    I use diesel fuel in a cheap one gallon lawn sprayer from your usual big box stores. Allows you to blast various areas, using copious quantities to flush crud out at a cheap price. Similar enough to kerosene that it won't hurt anything that typically sits in oil.
    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I HAVE .. a couple... of those "wand" blasters for use with the air compressor.

    Engine Cleaning Gun | Northern Tool + Equipment

    ISTR H-F has one much cheape?
    They'll suck the kerosene, Varsol, Diesel - whatever - through a line, as needed, but ...

    I no longer have the environment that can deal with any significant amount of it as it comes back OFF the machines, so they have been idle for ages.

    If you can move the machine onto a vis-queen polyvinly sheet, protected with a sacrificial olefin tarp over top of it, then pick up the edges with a nailed-up 1-by "box" as an in-place catchment basin to control the effluvia?

    Then you have more options.
    Another great idea. Now a somewhat dumb question maybe, can this be used on the electrical wiring that appears to have an oily residue on them? I'm kind of thinking probably not, especially if still connected to the transformers and such. But it never hurts to ask. As I've told others, the only stupid question is the one that wasn't asked.


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