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    Default Found another issue T6 & T7 are kind of an issue

    While talking with Tim we discovered another issue.



    Anyone care to guess what the issue is???


    Yep, I've got the wrong transformers for T6 and T7 since I'm running my lathe on 220v, as such the input of these transformers should be 220-240v. It is believed this lathe may have originally been setup to run on 440v, so more checking is being done to see if I may have other components that are expecting 440v and are only receiving 220v. I'm not sure there are, but the process continues.

    Hopefully others will have the opportunity to learn from my adventures troubleshooting my lathe. I'm getting closer to getting things worked out and to be absolutely honest, if I were trying to do this on my own, it would be absolutely impossible. As I stated in the beginning, I was clueless and had no clue where to even begin looking. I am extremely grateful for all who have shed some light, shared their experience, photos, advice, etc. Please don't stop because I still don't know very much. I've learned some by doing, but I've just been an instrument doing or looking at/for stuff you folks have suggested. If/when I am able to help anyone else from what I've learned, it will most likely just be regurgitating what you folks have shared with me

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    While talking with Tim we discovered another issue.



    Anyone care to guess what the issue is???


    Yep, I've got the wrong transformers for T6 and T7 since I'm running my lathe on 220v, as such the input of these transformers should be 220-240v. It is believed this lathe may have originally been setup to run on 440v, so more checking is being done to see if I may have other components that are expecting 440v and are only receiving 220v. I'm not sure there are, but the process continues.

    Hopefully others will have the opportunity to learn from my adventures troubleshooting my lathe. I'm getting closer to getting things worked out and to be absolutely honest, if I were trying to do this on my own, it would be absolutely impossible. As I stated in the beginning, I was clueless and had no clue where to even begin looking. I am extremely grateful for all who have shed some light, shared their experience, photos, advice, etc. Please don't stop because I still don't know very much. I've learned some by doing, but I've just been an instrument doing or looking at/for stuff you folks have suggested. If/when I am able to help anyone else from what I've learned, it will most likely just be regurgitating what you folks have shared with me
    No fear. THIS JOURNEY... has itself already added to "the knowledge".

    BTW. Transformer Engineering Corporation WAS still in the same building and still a premier maker of transformers per limkedin ... and others:

    Polychlorinated Biphenyls (PCBs).

    However.. their 'trenco" website is now gone, and they were listed as a partnership when last seen, no longer a body-corporate.

    Used transformer may need to be located? If not, those, too can be substituted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Tim knows better than most what is needed to JF work, so you should be fine.

    Thanks for the post-mortem.

    I do hope you were gloved as even the elastomeric thermally conducting / sound deadening potting compound is suspect... as well as the capacitor?

    Polychlorinated Biphenyls (PCBs)
    Thanks for the info, I suspect this stuff inside was some sort of PCB, although I could be wrong. Not sure how to dispose of it though.

    I was wearing gloves, if you can call them that. LOL I was wearing the cheap ones work give me and a couple of them tore while I was working on this. I probably should have been wearing the thicker gloves I have bought to use when working in the shop, but the others were readily available and within arms distance. I wasn't sure what that stuff was and had a feeling it might not be benign. I do want to clean the rest of it off that transformer so I can get a better look at everything. I'm not sure what to use, maybe I can use some of that electrical cleaner, or possibly some "Goop" and a tooth brush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    Thanks for the info, I suspect this stuff inside was some sort of PCB, although I could be wrong. Not sure how to dispose of it though.

    I was wearing gloves, if you can call them that. LOL I was wearing the cheap ones work give me and a couple of them tore while I was working on this. I probably should have been wearing the thicker gloves I have bought to use when working in the shop, but the others were readily available and within arms distance. I wasn't sure what that stuff was and had a feeling it might not be benign. I do want to clean the rest of it off that transformer so I can get a better look at everything. I'm not sure what to use, maybe I can use some of that electrical cleaner, or possibly some "Goop" and a tooth brush.
    Some might encase it in concrete and bury it. There's nothing further to learn from it than what you have learnt already.

    Causal effects of transformer (and capacitor) failure are WELL documented. VERY!

    And by folks with serious money for seriously good labs.

    Certain circles in this land seem heading in the direction of "Fahrenheit 451" so best to get your book-learning in while one still CAN do, though!


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    My 10EE was also a dedicated 460-volt machine which I needed to change over to 230-volts. Monarch was able to supply me with two used transformers and a new heater for one of the contactors, plus instructions for the changeover.

    Talk to Rob Covalt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    Thanks for the info, I suspect this stuff inside was some sort of PCB, although I could be wrong. Not sure how to dispose of it though.
    The danger from PCB exposure isn't in a one-shot exposure, it's in the long term exposure. Outside of industrial exposure the risk is minimal so long as you're not eating or drinking the PCBs.

    As for disposal - you can look at 40 CFR 761.60 and find:

    (ii) Any person may dispose of PCBSmall Capacitors as municipal solid waste, unless that person is subject to the requirements of paragraph (b)(2)(iv) of this section.

    I suspect that the fill was just asphalt.

  8. #187
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    Originally Posted by medic29
    While talking with Tim we discovered another issue.



    Medic29
    Please post the outcome of weather or not your lathe is 480. I suspect it is.
    My T6 and T7 are also 460/500. So I have the same issue.
    ================================================== ======================
    ezduzit posted;
    My 10EE was also a dedicated 460-volt machine which I needed to change over to 230-volts. Monarch was able to supply me with two used transformers and a new heater for one of the contactors, plus instructions for the changeover.

    Talk to Rob Covalt.
    ================================================== =============================



    Another option would be a step up transformer or wiring a step down transformer in reverse.
    Your 1962 lathe and mine appear to be identical. My serial number is 44804

    Please keep us posted. Your thread is already helping others. Me

    That T4 transformer may be hard to find but someone on PM has one. NO you cant have mine




    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    While talking with Tim we discovered another issue.



    Anyone care to guess what the issue is???


    Yep, I've got the wrong transformers for T6 and T7 since I'm running my lathe on 220v, as such the input of these transformers should be 220-240v. It is believed this lathe may have originally been setup to run on 440v, so more checking is being done to see if I may have other components that are expecting 440v and are only receiving 220v. I'm not sure there are, but the process continues.

    Hopefully others will have the opportunity to learn from my adventures troubleshooting my lathe. I'm getting closer to getting things worked out and to be absolutely honest, if I were trying to do this on my own, it would be absolutely impossible. As I stated in the beginning, I was clueless and had no clue where to even begin looking. I am extremely grateful for all who have shed some light, shared their experience, photos, advice, etc. Please don't stop because I still don't know very much. I've learned some by doing, but I've just been an instrument doing or looking at/for stuff you folks have suggested. If/when I am able to help anyone else from what I've learned, it will most likely just be regurgitating what you folks have shared with me

  9. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    Originally Posted by medic29
    While talking with Tim we discovered another issue.



    Medic29
    Please post the outcome of weather or not your lathe is 480. I suspect it is.
    My T6 and T7 are also 460/500. So I have the same issue.

    ezduzit posted;

    My 10EE was also a dedicated 460-volt machine which I needed to change over to 230-volts. Monarch was able to supply me with two used transformers and a new heater for one of the contactors, plus instructions for the changeover.

    Talk to Rob Covalt.

    Another option would be a step up transformer or wiring a step down transformer in reverse.
    Your 1962 lathe and mine appear to be identical. My serial number is 44804

    Please keep us posted. Your thread is already helping others. Me

    That T4 transformer may be hard to find but someone on PM has one. NO you cant have mine
    After talking to Tim, or plan now is using a step up transformer to run T6 & T7. Once I switch to the C16J replacements he has, he stated it won't be an issue, the replacements aren't as sensitive to the voltage. New to me 1962 10 EE, troubleshooting and repair

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    After talking to Tim, or plan now is using a step up transformer to run T6 & T7. Once I switch to the C16J replacements he has, he stated it won't be an issue, the replacements aren't as sensitive to the voltage. New to me 1962 10 EE, troubleshooting and repair

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
    Okay, some updates.....

    I did replace T4 with a step-up transformer, not exact specs, but close and appears to be working without issue.

    I ended up getting another step-up transformer which brings the 220v coming into the lathe and steps it up to 440v to power both T6 & T7. I have checked the output voltage of the secondary coils of T6 & T7 and they are both 2.5v, which is exactly what they are supposed to be. Once I finish with the troubleshooting, I will locate this "new" transformer in the transformer compartment. I'll have to make note of it in my manual for this machine so that those who inherit this machine after me will be able to identify it and why it is there.

    I posted a video on my web site which shows the machine running, but I was still have issues of the C16J tubes firing and making this popping noise. You can see the video HERE.

    After some more research and communication I learned the problem was the field circuit was "out of phase." I'm still not completely sure what that means, but it was an easy fix and I ended up fixing that situation by switching the connections from the secondary coil on T8. After doing that my drive now runs, the RPM isn't as fast as it should be, but I'm definitely making progress. You can see the updated video here.
    VIDEO.

    I hope my adventures helps others. I have received a lot of help and advice from many here on PM. I also have to thank Tim Jones a ton. His insight has been tremendously helpful. I'm not sure I would be where I'm at in this process without his guidance. I cannot express how grateful I am.

  12. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    I tried to find information on that specific device without success. I will continue my search and if I still cannot find the info I'll call monarch on Tuesday.

    On one of them in that series, it is normally open and closes at 120 degrees then opens again at 90 degrees. That sounds like the opposite of what is most likely in there.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
    I did contact Monarch about this Klaxon temperature switch. This is the response I received back from Monarch.
    We are pleased to quote the following for your EE lathe:
    27397 thermostat - $103.00 and I have in stock at this time.
    Please reference 0921-5014 with any questions

    I also did quite a bit of research and finally found a way to contact the manufacturer and send them a message requesting information about this switch. This is the response I received back from the manufacturer.
    Hello Rick - thanks for your inquiry. Not sure how old this thermostat is, but we don't have any record of it in our computer system. Our paper files indicate it opens at 200 F +/-8 F and closes at 160 F +/-5 F.

    It is no longer set up in our system. To reactivate it, we would have a minimum order quantity of 50 pcs.

    With the specs I received from the manufacturer I ordered two switches that should work okay for around $8

    I wanted to share what I had found out about the specs for this particular part used in my Monarch lathe.

    Rick

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  14. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post

    *snipped*

    Our paper files indicate it opens at 200 F +/-8 F and closes at 160 F +/-5 F.

    It is no longer set up in our system. To reactivate it, we would have a minimum order quantity of 50 pcs.

    With the specs I received from the manufacturer I ordered two switches that should work okay for around $8
    Hopefully.. they have enough "interrupting" capability to handle the current involved ....as well as close-enough temp operating points?

    Not that it is a show-stopper, so long as they can CARRY the normal load, "closed".

    Under normal operating conditions they can go near-as-dammit "forever" and never HAVE to open even ONCE.

    IF THEN.. the one in-circuit ever DOES have to open? It will have served its purpose even if it destroys itself in the process.

    IOW "should be OK". It's safer than just leaving it out or bypassing the device.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Hopefully.. they have enough "interrupting" capability to handle the current involved ....as well as close-enough temp operating points?

    Not that it is a show-stopper, so long as they can CARRY the normal load, "closed".

    Under normal operating conditions they can go near-as-dammit "forever" and never HAVE to open even ONCE.

    IF THEN.. the one in-circuit ever DOES have to open? It will have served its purpose even if it destroys itself in the process.

    IOW "should be OK". It's safer than just leaving it out or bypassing the device.
    The specs for the ones I ordered are normally closed and open at 90 C or 194 F and resets and closes again at 75 C or 178 F. They are rated for 10 amps. The original switch was connected with 20 gauge wire, which as a maximum amperage limit around 10-11 amps. So I am thinking this should be okay. Since I have the wires twisted together currently while troubleshooting, I can put a meter on it while the lathe is running to test the amperage. I wouldn't think this to be a high amperage circuit since it is set up as a protection circuit. Typically those types of circuits are low amperage designed to protect the higher amperage power circuits.

    Truly the whole idea of this switch being located there is an attempt to protect the electronic components within this compartment in case of fan failure. I would be interested in how many people have run their 10EE and had them shut down due to a build up of heat which caused this switch to activate. I am kind of thinking probably not many as it seemed like no one had any idea of the specs for this switch or adequate replacements. This leads me to believe that either this component rarely, if ever goes bad, or the overheating isn't that much of an issue. I will probably reach back out to the manufacturer in an attempt to find out what the original current rating was for the switch originally just to be safe.

    With that being said, if there are others who would like to complete an order for 50 of them, I'll gladly purchase at least one and possibly two, but as you can see, the manufacturer requires a minimum order of 50 to produce this particular switch again.

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    There should not be much current on the switch. It pulls in PC which is just a control for a coil.

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    I did a slight upgrade the other day, might be temporary, but for now this is the route I'm going. Replaced the two fuses with circuit breakers. Decided to do this after blowing both fuses while performing some trouble shooting trying to solve some phase issues.

    I did things so that I can easily put the fuse holder and fuses back in place. No new holes were made or anything. New to me 1962 10 EE, troubleshooting and repair

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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    Why are there exposed wires?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    Why are there exposed wires?
    Going into the breaker box? If that is your question, it's because that is how it was originally wired. The wires connect to the terminal block on the other side, then come through the holes and attached to the fuse holder then back through the other holes to another terminal block.

    I just ran the wires inside the project box and connected them to the circuit breakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantGunderson View Post
    I think the concern is overtime small vibrations can wear holes in the wire insulation where it goes through the holes in the casting / box. A simple solution is a bit of heat shrink over the wires in those areas as an extra buffer. Better yet instal grommets for the wires to enter through. On my 44 10EE all stock wiring is inside of conduits. The conduits also keep the wires from being exposed to oil and cutting fluids which may over time corrode / degrade the insulation on some wires. Not to mention most electrical code that I know of requires wires to be in conduit until terminated inside of a box. It’s just good practice.
    Since this compartment is actually covered by a closed door when in operation, none of the above should be an issue with the exception of the wires going through the board.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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    It would have seemed a simple matter to just mount that box directly over where the wires exited, covering them completely.

    As far as my qualifications to critique someone else's work, I'll post a couple photos of my own work (on yachts).

    Photo of a work in progress of an engine and Aquadrive installation (including electrical) I did from scratch.



    And a photo of a refit I did to the battery system (including wiring plus designing and fabricating the high density battery racks) on an 80' yacht. Some of the wiring of the equipment in the upper part of the photo was left as installed by the builder.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    It would have seemed a simple matter to just mount that box directly over where the wires exited, covering them completely.

    As far as my qualifications to critique someone else's work, I'll post a couple photos of my own work (on yachts).

    Photo of a work in progress of an engine and Aquadrive installation (including electrical) I did from scratch.



    And a photo of a refit I did to the battery system (including wiring plus designing and fabricating the high density battery racks) on an 80' yacht. Some of the wiring of the equipment in the upper part of the photo was left as installed by the builder.

    I imagine I could have turned the box 90 degrees and did that. I could have mounted the project box to the casting further inside that compartment. I really think this is an extremely small issue. In all actuality, at the time I wasn't concerned about that wiring like that. That particular whole unit folds down where there are numerous open wires. Again, this compartment is going to be closed and none of that wire will be open to anyone. No more so than the wires located in the relay compartment or transformer compartment. All of these compartments will be closed, this everything will be contained within the container.

    I guess my question is why do some consider this an issue? Or is it that I changed from fuses to breakers?

    I do appreciate your input and will take it into consideration in the future. New to me 1962 10 EE, troubleshooting and repair

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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    Getting some new paint. The other layers needed to come off. This probably isn't close to original, but I kind of like it. Shout out to Sherwin Williams for help with the paint. We'll see how it wears. It will be awhile before it fully cures. New to me 1962 10 EE, troubleshooting and repair

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