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  1. #81
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    Hmmm, no one has any thoughts??

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    Hmmm, no one has any thoughts??
    I'm thinking this has been a good lesson for you.

    How about calling tech support at Monarch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    I'm thinking this has been a good lesson for you.

    How about calling tech support at Monarch?
    I'm not sure if you're trying to be a smart a$$ or what exactly.

    I have traced the wires and will do it again on Saturday when I get time again.

    Yes, I can and will call Monarch if need be. I had been told there is a wealth of knowledge here on PM that could help, which is why I've been asking. I don't know if what it is doing is of my doing or because something else is wrong. I was hoping to get an idea where to look.

    I appreciate your helpful insight to disregard PM as being a wealth of knowledge I was led to believe it was. Much appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    Hmmm, no one has any thoughts??
    Debugging gets more complicated than simple rewiring.

    If you have a good voltmeter and some experience with measuring potentially lethal voltages, one starting approach is to measure all of the voltages at the test points on the schematics and make note of each voltage. This might give you some hint as to what is not working correctly.

    Unfortunately deciphering the results is a combination of experience, knowledge of the circuit, and some guesswork

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  6. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Pilgrim? Even if someone gives you a gold mine, you still have to use the pick and shovel yourself.

    Nobody here has ARMS long enough to use your meter or solder your wire.

    Nor even SEE through your eyes.

    What an experienced hand has to look for isn't ON a You Tube screen.

    Visual of wires. Meter - more than ONE at ago, here.. 'Scope trace....

    More than one event at a go must dance to "the plan".

    It isn't complicated. But as with piloting an aircraft that makes a good servant, but poor master:

    Uncommonly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity.. or neglect.

    There is no "close enough" There is no prize for "trying hard".

    Every wire has to be "right". Every component must do its job.

    ALL the adjustable Voltages and currents must be properly adjusted.

    Are they?
    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Debugging gets more complicated than simple rewiring.

    If you have a good voltmeter and some experience with measuring potentially lethal voltages, one starting approach is to measure all of the voltages at the test points on the schematics and make note of each voltage. This might give you some hint as to what is not working correctly.

    Unfortunately deciphering the results is a combination of experience, knowledge of the circuit, and some guesswork
    I have no problem doing the work once I figure out what the work actually is. It helps for everyone to remember what may seem common sense to one may not even be a thought to another. My other machines have essentially no electronics contained within other than a motor and maybe a few switches. So the electronics contained within this machine is a HUGE step for me and has created a large learning curve. Remember when you were a virgin, did you know everything your first time out, did you even know what you didn't know?? I think not. I fear I am in a similar situation. I don't know what I don't know; I can only imagine. When something is just nuts and bolts, such as my other lathes, I can take it apart and work at putting it back together and keep working at it until I get it correct and I don't have to worry too much about destroying something or myself in the process. With electronics and the voltages and amperages contained within this machine, I can not only damage something, but potentially cause great harm to myself. I don't know how many know this, but it isn't the voltage that kills, but rather the amps.

    I have a multi-meter and can check for readings; I do not however have a scope. If that is what is needed, then I am at a stand still because I don't have one and don't know where I can put my hands on one.

    I have been looking at the schematic this evening trying to figure out where or how to check some measurements. I am not sure if I should be checking for AC or DC voltage at the various locations, especially since this unit connects to AC current, but switches it to DC, which I believe is one of the positives for this lathe.

    I also have a theory it might be the connector to the anode on ET1. If you remember the connector broke so I have soldered the wire to the outside of the connector as a temp until I can get a replacement. I have ordered a few, once someone said what it was called (again in a degrading manor as if I should have known this Something I would never do if asked about something I am knowledgeable in, like medical issues, but again I guess it is part of my profession to be able to try to talk with people without making them feel like a fool.) So, I wonder if that wire I soldered has come loose, I'll check, again, not sure if how it is acting could be a symptom of that tube not working correctly. I got an idea it could be from reading comments on a YouTube post where the creator of the post was replying to someone else asking a question where their lathe was having a similar problem as mine.

    As a medical professional I have people come to me with symptoms going on and I develop ideas of what the cause may be. Now if they are paying me to determine the cause, that's one thing, I can do my own assessment, perform my own diagnostics, etc. If they are asking my opinion, I tell them what I would look for, what diagnostics I might try and what I believe the solution would be. I don't berate them for not having the knowledge I have, nor for not knowing what or where to begin to look.

    Okay, rant over. Again, I'll go back to my schematic, grab my multi-meter and make some guess of what or where to check. I have some ideas, once I get the readings I don't know if that will mean much to me either. I guess one of my first steps is going to be trying to figure out if I should be checking for AC or DC. I know I need to check the diodes in the module out as I believe those are a common thing to go bad in the module which causes speed issues, but I am also thinking the diode issue can wait until after I figure out what is causing the pulsing or revving of the spindle, unless they could be the cause. I have no idea, totally not my realm of expertise.

  7. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Debugging gets more complicated than simple rewiring.

    ... one starting approach is to measure all of the voltages at the test points on the schematics ...
    When you speak of the test points on the schematics are you talking about this voltage-reading.jpg? Because those show voltage at certain RPMs of which I can get neither currently. I can not get 200 or 2000 RPMs, I can get close to the 2000RPMs, so I could get these readings.

    If you're not talking about that list and there is an actual symbol on the schematic I should be looking for, please share that. I think I know what all or at least most all of the symbols stand for on the schematic. So I'm not sure it is a symbol I'm looking for.

    I appreciate the direction you are pointing me though, it truly does give me an idea where to start, other than wiggling wires and looking for something obvious.

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    I appteciate your insight. My goal is to learn from your mistakes and lack of focus at the task at hand and try not to repeat it.

    BTW, yes I understand the ability of DC current, it is what I start the heart with.

    This is the exact reason why I ask questions, so share your experience and leave the attitude or don't reply.

    Remember it may be someone like me who tries to keep your body body alive one day or take away some pain.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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    Don't listen to the quip:

    "it isn't the voltage that kills, but rather the amps."

    That is just an inside joke that people who work with this
    stuff tell each other. It is like the "medical" joke;

    "It isn't the fall that kills, it's the landing."

    If the circuit is low voltage, 24 volts or less, then you are
    generally safe. Above that you need to be more careful. If
    you see tubes it is always lethal.

    In this circuit always check what you are about to touch
    with a voltmeter. Check both for AC and DC because you
    need to be sure. AC voltage will not register on a meter
    set to DC. DC may not register on a meter set to AC.

    Even after I check a circuit I always hit it with the knuckle
    of one finger. That way if I have made a mistake, the shock
    will pull my arm away.

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  11. #89
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    Yes, that is what I was thinking of.

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  13. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Yes, that is what I was thinking of.
    Perfect, I'll work at doing that tomorrow. New to me 1962 10 EE, troubleshooting and repair

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    I have no problem doing the work once I figure out what the work actually is. It helps for everyone to remember what may seem common sense to one may not even be a thought to another. My other machines have essentially no electronics contained within other than a motor and maybe a few switches. So the electronics contained within this machine is a HUGE step for me and has created a large learning curve. Remember when you were a virgin, did you know everything your first time out, did you even know what you didn't know?? I think not. I fear I am in a similar situation. ...
    Since you quoted my post before this I am going to assume this is in part aimed at me. I think you need to consider that there are cases in medicine that a professional is not going to be willing to offer an opinion over the phone or internet. And even with hands on the patient, in the ideal setting, with all the right equipment at hand, a medical professional may quickly send someone to a specialist. The same thing applies with technical professionals.

    I retired from teaching electrical engineering at a top 10 engineering school. That doesn't mean I can diagnose any electrical circuit thrown out on the internet. I put my caveats in the early post not to be difficult, but to warn you that there are very real limits to what my expertise can provide in these circumstances. If you look back you'll see I even offered that working together in person on it was not out of the realm of possibility. I believe that's a very generous offer on my part, given I have my own machines that are not running, as well as having a life of my own. Please keep this in mind when soliciting free advise from knowledgeable people. Just because they have the knowledge to help you doesn't mean they are under any obligation to do so, especially if you are less than appreciative.

    edited to add: In general you have been very reasonable, but this comment struck me wrong.

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  16. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Since you quoted my post before this I am going to assume this is in part aimed at me. I think you need to consider that there are cases in medicine that a professional is not going to be willing to offer an opinion over the phone or internet. And even with hands on the patient, in the ideal setting, with all the right equipment at hand, a medical professional may quickly send someone to a specialist. The same thing applies with technical professionals.

    I retired from teaching electrical engineering at a top 10 engineering school. That doesn't mean I can diagnose any electrical circuit thrown out on the internet. I put my caveats in the early post not to be difficult, but to warn you that there are very real limits to what my expertise can provide in these circumstances. If you look back you'll see I even offered that working together in person on it was not out of the realm of possibility. I believe that's a very generous offer on my part, given I have my own machines that are not running, as well as having a life of my own. Please keep this in mind when soliciting free advise from knowledgeable people. Just because they have the knowledge to help you doesn't mean they are under any obligation to do so, especially if you are less than appreciative.

    edited to add: In general you have been very reasonable, but this comment struck me wrong.
    I apologize and really the only part of that message that truly applied to you was starting that I'm willing to do the work, that I just need pointed in the right direction. After looking at it, I should have broke the posts apart.

    I whole heartedly appreciate all of the thoughts and direction shared with me during this adventure.

    My issue has never been with you. I try to take things with a grain of salt most times although I falter when I'm struggling and frustrated because I can't figure it out or don't have the knowledge or experience and I feel like someone is essentially laughing at my frustration.

    I completely understand a person cannot effectively diagnose anything via text or even over the phone. Many times visuals are needed, or something described, etc. which I am more than willing to provide if I know that is what is needed.

    When working in a small hospital I had to assist a neurologist examine a patient. The neurologist was in Paris, France, the patient and I were in Illinois. I had to move the camera around so the neurologist could see what he needed to see, hold the microphone strethoscope over the patient's heat, lungs, bowl, etc. And perform some of the physical exams with the patient while the neurologist watched. I share this because I feel it may be the same. I may not know what to do, but if told, I can do it and share what I find. I may even figure it out and just want to confirm my thoughts.

    I wish I could diagnose this thing on my own, but that is not where I have knowledge. In a past post I shared that I wished there was a way to repay the generosity in the future. Maybe one day someone will have a need for that which I am knowledgeable in. New to me 1962 10 EE, troubleshooting and repair

    Again, please accept my sincere apology. I will try to do better.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Yes, that is what I was thinking of.
    voltage-reading.jpg

    I had thought checking these voltages would be fairly straight forward, but when I was doing it, I ended up with some questions, so I thought it would be better to ask to find out for sure.

    The top of the column states "ACROSS", the first one is LINE (L1-L3), so I check the voltage using the multimeter one lead on L1 and the other on L3. No problem.

    A few lines down it states "R14 (-29 +29A)", the next line states "C2 (-22 +42)" and so on.

    So, I'm not sure how to check those. I am thinking I need to take to cover off the module and plug it into the unit and run the lathe so I can get these readings.

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    Is this FLASH (spark) normal?

    http://www.rrogers.us/monarch/QSM flash.mp4

    That just seems odd, especially when nothing else does this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post

    I had thought checking these voltages would be fairly straight forward, but when I was doing it, I ended up with some questions, so I thought it would be better to ask to find out for sure.

    The top of the column states "ACROSS", the first one is LINE (L1-L3), so I check the voltage using the multimeter one lead on L1 and the other on L3. No problem.

    A few lines down it states "R14 (-29 +29A)", the next line states "C2 (-22 +42)" and so on.

    So, I'm not sure how to check those. I am thinking I need to take to cover off the module and plug it into the unit and run the lathe so I can get these readings.
    Pretty much have to. From the schematic:



    You can see R14 as well as the "<<" marks indicating the connections into the module. From another print:



    Showing where in the module those pinouts are. Have to have the cover off for those.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    Is this FLASH (spark) normal?

    http://www.rrogers.us/monarch/QSM flash.mp4

    That just seems odd, especially when nothing else does this.
    I think that's expected from the armature contacts, the asbestos sheets at the sides indicates that.

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    I think part of my machine's problem are these pesky diodes!!! I just finished testing them, see below.

    1) 0.657
    2) 0.588
    3) 0.634
    4) 0.680
    5) 0.601
    6) 1.081
    7) 0.590
    8) 0.608
    9) 0.609
    10) 0.587
    11) 0.586
    12) 0.609
    13) 0.615
    14) 0.608

    So I'm thinking #6 is probably bad??

    In another post I read where the 1N1084 can be used as a replacement. I have seen both silicon 1N1084 and ceramic 1N1084, would either of these work??

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    Pretty much have to. From the schematic:



    You can see R14 as well as the "<<" marks indicating the connections into the module. From another print:



    Showing where in the module those pinouts are. Have to have the cover off for those.
    Okay, that's what I was thinking. I'm not sure how comfortable I am running it with that cover off, but I can check what I need to check with the unit folded down, then turn off the lathe and the power, then fold the power unit up and restart the lathe.

    I was going to pull the module off and remove the cover anyway to check the diodes which I hadn't done yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    I think that's expected from the armature contacts, the asbestos sheets at the sides indicates that.
    That makes sense!!! Thanks!!!!

    I'll just have to remember not to operate the lathe where gas is leaking. LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by medic29 View Post
    voltage-reading.jpg

    A few lines down it states "R14 (-29 +29A)", the next line states "C2 (-22 +42)" and so on.
    Any ideas about this?? Is it indicating to check both sides of the resister? Then both sides of the capacitor? Maybe that's it, IDK.


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