New to me 47 Monarch 10ee pre-run checklist? Broken tachometer?
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    Default New to me 47 Monarch 10ee pre-run checklist? Broken tachometer?

    Hi all! I've been creeping this forum for a while now lusting over all your beautiful lathes, and now I've finally purchased my very own Monarch 10ee. Being a rookie I bought the machine sight on scene, only doing a quick visual inspection (I was too excited to find a 10ee close to me at a great price). I'll attach some pictures as it currently sits, I plan to pick it up within a week or two.

    I want to make sure everything is mechanically in check before I start to run this thing, and there is one area of concern. In one picture you'll see that the tachometer needle is broken and missing the protective shield. Not 100% what could've caused this broken needle, but I'd like to find out why, if anyone has any ideas please let me know. It also has a VFD, hopefully everything electrically is alright.

    Other than that the lathe is overall pretty greasy and can use a good cleaning. This is my order of operation:
    - Good cleaning
    - Flush oil and replace (where can I find this info?)
    - Mechanical check of all mechanisms (any critical areas for attention?)
    - Wire up and run? (I'll be hiring a professional electrician)
    ad_1561161054151.jpgimg_20190625_124612.jpgad_1561161049951.jpgimg_20190625_124114.jpgimg_20190625_124123.jpg

    Any advice is greatly appreciated, as I said this is new territory for me but I'm beyond excited.

    Thanks guys,


    -Addison

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    it looks like the original drive has been updated at some point. originally that vintage machine would have had a motor generator drive. a rather large DC motor connected to a back gear transmission located under the headstock and driving the long belt wrapped around the spindle pulley. the dc motor was driven by another smaller AC motor located under the tailstock. The smaller three phase AC motor under the tailstock had a piggy back DC generator mounted on it to generate the DC for the large spindle motor. your second picture of the panel with all the contractors and relays is not original equipment so it leads me to believe the generator section might have been updated also. Remove the door at the tailstock end of the machine and post a pic of what is there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GetBlitzified View Post
    Hi all! I've been creeping this forum for a while now lusting over all your beautiful lathes, and now I've finally purchased my very own Monarch 10ee. Being a rookie I bought the machine sight on scene, only doing a quick visual inspection (I was too excited to find a 10ee close to me at a great price). I'll attach some pictures as it currently sits, I plan to pick it up within a week or two.

    I want to make sure everything is mechanically in check before I start to run this thing, and there is one area of concern. In one picture you'll see that the tachometer needle is broken and missing the protective shield. Not 100% what could've caused this broken needle, but I'd like to find out why, if anyone has any ideas please let me know. It also has a VFD, hopefully everything electrically is alright.

    Other than that the lathe is overall pretty greasy and can use a good cleaning. This is my order of operation:
    - Good cleaning
    - Flush oil and replace (where can I find this info?)
    - Mechanical check of all mechanisms (any critical areas for attention?)
    - Wire up and run? (I'll be hiring a professional electrician)
    ad_1561161054151.jpgimg_20190625_124612.jpgad_1561161049951.jpgimg_20190625_124114.jpgimg_20190625_124123.jpg

    Any advice is greatly appreciated, as I said this is new territory for me but I'm beyond excited.

    Thanks guys,


    -Addison
    I cannot get a good view of the dataplate, but it is a "brass round-dial" so more likely 1942, not 1947. Round-dials went over to white-metal for the war, and were later replaced with "square dial" - still "MG", then WiaD, then Module drive.

    IMNSHO, the single most critical item to insure is put-right before running is proper lube (Mobil DTE Light) in the two spindle-bearing reservoirs. The bearings they serve are the single most expensive parts if you have to replace them.

    The sight glasses are ALSO the "drains" and are often coated with grunge on the inside, so remove the three screws, each, grab a pin-spanner (HF one even works..), use it in the screw holes to TWIST, not pry, each of the bezel-rings to break the adhesion to the old cork seals...

    The rest is well covered "right here on PM". Monarch Forum. You will have easily several WEEKS of reading to do, more later as you go throught apron & c. - but your confidence level and reduction in risk, worry, and damage will be far the better for it.

    Meanwhile - more photos of your motor, VFD, and controls. please.

    Monarch "factory" rebuilds to the later "square dial" aside, no two field-expedient/ DIY VFD downgrades are ever quite exactly alike.

    VFD capacitor banks have finite lives, too, so you may want to budget a new VFD.

    Or seek an original DC motor and "put it back right."


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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    it looks like the original drive has been updated at some point. originally that vintage machine would have had a motor generator drive. a rather large DC motor connected to a back gear transmission located under the headstock and driving the long belt wrapped around the spindle pulley. the dc motor was driven by another smaller AC motor located under the tailstock. The smaller three phase AC motor under the tailstock had a piggy back DC generator mounted on it to generate the DC for the large spindle motor. your second picture of the panel with all the contractors and relays is not original equipment so it leads me to believe the generator section might have been updated also. Remove the door at the tailstock end of the machine and post a pic of what is there.
    Thanks for the response! Yes I regret not taking way more pictures, definitely more to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I cannot get a good view of the dataplate, but it is a "brass round-dial" so more likely 1942, not 1947. Round-dials went over to white-metal for the war, and were later replaced with "square dial" - still "MG", then WiaD, then Module drive. - I'll double check the plate when the lathe is settled in, but I'm pretty sure it reads 1947?

    IMNSHO, the single most critical item to insure is put-right before running is proper lube (Mobil DTE Light) in the two spindle-bearing reservoirs. The bearings they serve are the single most expensive parts if you have to replace them. The sight glasses are ALSO the "drains" and are often coated with grunge on the inside, so remove the three screws, each, grab a pin-spanner (HF one even works..), use it in the screw holes to TWIST, not pry, each of the bezel-rings to break the adhesion to the old cork seals... - Will 100% do, this is the kind of info I'm looking for. Thanks for the tip!

    The rest is well covered "right here on PM". Monarch Forum. You will have easily several WEEKS of reading to do, more later as you go throught apron & c. - but your confidence level and reduction in risk, worry, and damage will be far the better for it. - Totally agree, lots of good information on this forum, and I'm thankful for the active community.

    Meanwhile - more photos of your motor, VFD, and controls. please. - More pictures to come!

    Monarch "factory" rebuilds to the later "square dial" aside, no two field-expedient/ DIY VFD downgrades are ever quite exactly alike. VFD capacitor banks have finite lives, too, so you may want to budget a new VFD. Or seek an original DC motor and "put it back right." - I think for now I will try and see if I can get the VFD working. If it doesn't work, I'll find a different solution.


    See response above in red. Thank you for the response, lots of good info.

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    Tachometer, BTW, is a Stewart-Warner mechanical, first cousin to a speedometer head. One of my 10EE has the same sad state - bustid. I acquired a complete tacho and its drivetrain shafts and gearing from a part-out. PM has threads that cover that sort of repair.

    It may take quite a while before you can get it back in order.

    "Meanwhile" no need to rig a DIY tacho. Most VFD have either/both a numerical display and outputs that can be connected to a third-party meter arranged to indicate motor-shaft RPM.

    Actual spindle RPM is a tad higher - check your pulley sizes. Just calculate a multiplier, and that'll be "good enough" as to optimizing for making chips while you scout the parts and service to put the OEM one into working order.

    Suggest you NOT start-out by tearing everything apart and painting it. Better to see to the lubricants and power, then try running it long enough to get used to what you have and what it needs next and most urgently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GetBlitzified View Post
    Hi all! I've been creeping this forum for a while now lusting over all your beautiful lathes, and now I've finally purchased my very own Monarch 10ee. Being a rookie I bought the machine sight on scene, only doing a quick visual inspection (I was too excited to find a 10ee close to me at a great price). I'll attach some pictures as it currently sits, I plan to pick it up within a week or two.

    I want to make sure everything is mechanically in check before I start to run this thing, and there is one area of concern. In one picture you'll see that the tachometer needle is broken and missing the protective shield. Not 100% what could've caused this broken needle, but I'd like to find out why, if anyone has any ideas please let me know. It also has a VFD, hopefully everything electrically is alright.

    Other than that the lathe is overall pretty greasy and can use a good cleaning. This is my order of operation:
    - Good cleaning
    - Flush oil and replace (where can I find this info?)
    - Mechanical check of all mechanisms (any critical areas for attention?)
    - Wire up and run? (I'll be hiring a professional electrician)
    ad_1561161054151.jpgimg_20190625_124612.jpgad_1561161049951.jpgimg_20190625_124114.jpgimg_20190625_124123.jpg

    Any advice is greatly appreciated, as I said this is new territory for me but I'm beyond excited.

    Thanks guys,


    -Addison
    Hi Addison,

    Welcome aboard!

    This post tells you how to check the carriage for wear:
    Here's a disccusion about oil.
    There's a lot of bad information out there on the subject of oil for your 10EE. You'll find people telling you to use motor oil or hydraulic oil. What you want is machine tool circulating oil such as Mobil DTE Light and DTE Heavy Medium. The carriage and tailstock need way oil like Mobile Vactra #2. Mobil DTE 24 and DTE 26 are hydraulic oils and ARE NOT the right lubricant, despite the similar name and viscosity.

    The correct Mobil lubricants are available online, from McMaster-Carr:
    Mobil DTE Light, 1 gallon: 2158K14
    Mobil DTE Heavy Medium, 1 gallon: 2158K15
    Mobil Vactra #2, 1 gallon: 2158K21

    This post discusses flushing and refilling the various lubricants:
    One thing that you should definatly do is remove, inspect and clean the compound, carriage, apron and taper attachement assemblies. Just like a fine firearm requires periodic disassembly, cleaning and lubricating, so do most machine tools. This thread should get you started on removing the carriage, etc.:
    Here's an album that has a series of photos that show how to take the top slide and taper attachment apart: Unfortunately, photobucket has hosed up the album so that the descriptions don't show. If you look at it as a "story" you can see some of the descriptions, but then the photos are out of order.

    Please post a photo of your spindle motor.

    Let me know as you have questions.

    Cal

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    Welcome and hats off to Cal as that post of his really covers it!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GetBlitzified View Post
    ...
    ad_1561161054151.jpg
    Also, the 1947 date is not correct. As far as I know, the last round-dials were built in early 1945. With serial number 19290, it was probably built in 1943.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Also, the 1947 date is not correct. As far as I know, the last round-dials were built in early 1945. With serial number 19290, it was probably built in 1943.

    Cal
    AFAIK the "ordered" date set the S/N, the completion/delivery date set the data plate date?

    We've had other evidence of wartime priorities shifting early-order 10EE to completion far later than ones ordered months afterwards.

    There is also the issue of sequestered machines that may have been cancelled as wartime efforts, government agencies, company or division-of were re-purposed or even wound up altogether. A 10EE then sold to a new entity before final completion.

    Also.. at least a few where "older" models were ordered for the buyer's own reasons. MMT didn't turn those orders away so long as they still had the goods to build to them readily. New money for old rope.

    Would MMT have ever built 10EE "on speculation" then sent them off to their own warehouse & distributor/dealer showrooms?

    Only maybe. But it was a choice mooted by the arrival of War Two, then Korea. Thereafter MMT didn't have to "sell" as much as "allocate".

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    Cal, this is exactly the kind of info I've been looking for, you are the man. Will do all those tips when the lathe arrives, although I wish I knew the quick feeler gauge test before hand to inspect for wear. Fingers crossed the carriage checks out. Thank you SO much for all this info, it's gold to me!

    I'll definitely look into the year.. for all I know the bottom portion of the two got worn off and looks like a 7!

    I'm organizing transport to happen sometime next week, so plenty more pictures to come

    -Addison

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    Quote Originally Posted by GetBlitzified View Post
    .. wish I knew the quick feeler gauge test before hand to inspect for wear.
    It will be worn. Lot of years since even 1947.

    Even so... the wear stabilizes, there is a LOT of mass there and very wide and long stance to reduce rocking-horse.

    Result is that the line of travel of the working tool-tip doesn't get out off its plan as much as less heavily built lathes with half the wear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GetBlitzified View Post
    ad_1561161054151.jpg

    I also have a lathe that was sold in Canada by Williams & Wilson.

    dsc04968.jpg

    There's a restoration thread here My first Monarch 10EE '5/42 round dial S/N 13938

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    My guess, the tag reads 1943.

    Hal

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    Alright after some shipment and storage disputes the lathe is finally ready to be loved again. I've got some more pictures for you folks, and the thing is GUTTED! Heres a few notes from me:

    - Seems as though the only electrics inside are the the motor and the DC drive (VFD?) After looking up the model number "Saftronics DG8-15-2" this drive is only rated for 3hp.. its to my knowledge that you want a VFD to be rated MORE than the motor rating.. but perhaps this is different for a DC motor? If you can't tell already I'm no electrician!

    - Upon closer inspection of the serial plate, the machine IS a 1943! You guys are sharp.

    The next few things for me is to remove the apron and clean the carriage, flush and replace all oils, and finally a good clean/paint.
    mvimg_20190729_185850.jpgmvimg_20190729_185939.jpgimg_20190729_190237.jpgimg_20190729_185859.jpgimg_20190729_185914.jpg

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    Default Apron/Carriage Maintenance

    Alright guys, I've successfully removed the apron and carriage as per recommendation. Now that they are off the machine, is there anything I should be looking for / needs attention? These are my ideas so far,
    Apron:
    - Remove and clean everything I can (any step by step process out there? ) is it too much to remove everything?
    - Ensure oil lines are not clogged
    - Ensure oil pump operates properly
    - Replace carriage roller bearings (they feel quite rough)

    Carriage:
    - Remove and clean
    - Replace carriage roller bearings
    - Replace way seals

    I'm hoping these roller bearings are just a standard size? Any advice is greatly appreciated!

    apron-2.jpgapron-1.jpgapron-3.jpgapron-4.jpg

    -Addison

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    Here's a link with the apron bearing numbers: 10EE apron internal bearings

    RC99 went through his apron and posted some nice photos about how shafts come out, etc. I think this is the thread: OzEE rebuild

    Cal


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