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  1. #1
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    Default New to me Monarch 10EE just arrived!

    My "new" monarch just arrived! Hrmm, now what to do first!?

    Got a cheap ride off the truck from the local towing company

    img_20180313_094023953.jpg

    img_20180313_084406548_hdr.jpg

    Head stock looks good.

    img_20180313_093956907.jpg

    Ways looks good

    img_20180313_094201476.jpg

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    Welcome to the club and welcome to the Monarch forum!

    What's the serial number and build date?

    I'll be happy to help you out if you have any problems with the motor/generator (MG) drive.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Welcome to the club and welcome to the Monarch forum!

    What's the serial number and build date?

    I'll be happy to help you out if you have any problems with the motor/generator (MG) drive.

    Cal

    thanks Cal, I appreciate the offer and will take you up on it! I plan on getting the MG drive running and keeping it.

    It is "looking" to be in pretty good shape.

    It is sn 19377 dated 5-1943

    I figured one of my first orders of business would be getting the drive running so I can check out the rest of the lathe. Pretty happy with the overall condition so far.

    I ordered a manual today from Monarch.

    Any pointers to good reads on the drive system would be helpful right now.

    I will run the lathe on single phase so I was "thinking" I'd run the 3-phase MG motor with a VFD...looks like a 5HP VFD will do it with a 13.2 amp input. Anyone doing this?

    More Info

    MG Tag

    motor-tag.jpg

    Spindle Motor

    monarch-drive-2-.jpg

    my-monarch-found-16-.jpg

  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    thanks Cal, I appreciate the offer and will take you up on it! I plan on getting the MG drive running and keeping it.

    It is "looking" to be in pretty good shape.

    It is sn 19377 dated 5-1943

    I figured one of my first orders of business would be getting the drive running so I can check out the rest of the lathe. Pretty happy with the overall condition so far.

    I ordered a manual today from Monarch.

    Any pointers to good reads on the drive system would be helpful right now.

    I will run the lathe on single phase so I was "thinking" I'd run the 3-phase MG motor with a VFD...looks like a 5HP VFD will do it with a 13.2 amp input. Anyone doing this?
    I don't actually know of anyone running an MG machine using a VFD. I think that by the time you get to a large enough VFD to run a 10EE, it's cheaper to go with an RPC (rotary phase converter). You can usually buy a used 7.5HP, 3-phase motor to use as the idler for under $100. An RPC parts kit is under $100, complete panels are under $200. With an RPC you can run other 3-phase equipment that may follow you home in the future.

    Another option is a so-called "static phase converter", which is really nothing more than a 3-phase motor starter. The cost around $100. Once the MG is started, it will continue to run on single phase. Adding a pair of run capacitors helps a lot.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    I don't actually know of anyone running an MG machine using a VFD. I think that by the time you get to a large enough VFD to run a 10EE, it's cheaper to go with an RPC (rotary phase converter). You can usually buy a used 7.5HP, 3-phase motor to use as the idler for under $100. An RPC parts kit is under $100, complete panels are under $200. With an RPC you can run other 3-phase equipment that may follow you home in the future.

    Another option is a so-called "static phase converter", which is really nothing more than a 3-phase motor starter. The cost around $100. Once the MG is started, it will continue to run on single phase. Adding a pair of run capacitors helps a lot.

    Cal
    Thanks for input Cal, I appreciate everything you do for this forum...I've read much! So yes been batting around RPC VFD, ETC (to keep the OE MG set running).

    But check this, seems to be relatively new for a VFD in the power range needed for 220 VAC 12 amps or so.

    4KW 22V 5HP VFD SINGLE PHASE VARIABLE SPEED DRIVE INVERTER VARIABLE FREQUENCY | eBay

    Hope the link works. I think this will run the lathe and relatively easy to integrate in the original controls and keep the running as they were designed. I probably will and can add a few estop options to satisfy my safety needs.

    >You can usually buy a used 7.5HP, 3-phase motor to use as the idler for under $100.

    Sorry, newb question, what do yo u mean by idler?

    I'll have to work on a sticky for a vfd power up of a MG set!

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    Hard to go too wrong at that price. VFD seller's feedback looks OK, but not great. Let us know how that works out if you go that route.

    If you're using a VFD with an MG, you would set it up to ramp the MG's motor up at startup and then leave it at 60 cycles. Shutting off the VFD via a emergency stop won't stop the spindle very quickly. You would also want a relay to interrupt C3 from the headstock switch.

    An RPC consists of a control panel and an idler motor. The idler motor can be any 3-phase motor of sufficient size. I'm suggesting that you buy an idler motor locally and add a control panel, rather than buy a complete RPC (including idler motor); you can save $200 to $400 that way.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Let us know how that works out if you go that route.

    If you're using a VFD with an MG, you would set it up to ramp the MG's motor up at startup and then leave it at 60 cycles.

    Shutting off the VFD via a emergency stop won't stop the spindle very quickly. You would also want a relay to interrupt C3 from the headstock switch.

    Cal
    I will let the group know. I just haven't figured out why this isn't a good option, but yet no one has apparently done it? Not really looking to add another 5th "motor" (and or generator or two) into the mix that a RPC would add to run the lathe.

    The idea for sure is to ramp the vfd right up to 60 Hz to run the 3 phase ac "drive" motor.

    Agreed on shutting off the VFD for an e stop won't do squat. Definitely need to brake the spindle to a stop the way monarch intended it. Thanks for the tip on the C3 wire. I don't think that will be hard to implement.

    Anywho to introduce myself (sort of again) after I was outcast in PM for discussing my Kao Fong Taiwan made mill....

    Waves to the group and here is what else I mess around with.

    The Kao Fong and probably some pixs of the SB 10K trainer lathe.

    Flickr: Page Not Found

    and my mopar car project:

    68 GTX Project | Page 9 | For B Bodies Only Classic Mopar Forum




    Brian aka rakort aka rak

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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    I will let the group know. I just haven't figured out why this isn't a good option,
    Brings more pain than gain, basically.

    The 3-P motor in the MG is only around 4 1/2 HP, by definition starts "unloaded", as the DC load motor is idle when it is fired-up.

    That isn't enough of a starting load to bother even a 5 HP idler'ed RPC, though most folks recommend a 7.5 HP idler or better.

    In this application, the VFD isn't meant to do other-than 60 Hz, cannot involve itself in braking, e-Stop nor even ramp up or down of the load motor.

    Reputable VFD makers specify right in their manuals how often the capacitor bank on their VFD should be renewed - typically 7 to 9 years, sometimes less. WTH - even the newer-generation Phase-Perfect want new caps every three years. Per their manual. You can't make this shit up. RTFM.

    Few VFD end-lusers, and not a whole lot of plant-wide networks of "many, many" VFD ever do that replacement. The caps usually costing more as a set for a onesie than a new VFD, built tens of thousands at a go does, new VFD are rolled-in instead.

    The RPC, by comparison, "may" also need new caps in its control/starter box in the fullness of time. But said "fullness" can be out around 20 years or so, AND even then, if the idler is also gifted a new set of bearings, all of that is much cheaper than the caps alone for a VFD.

    Put another way.. if you have a need and can afford the initial cost and upkeep for a VFD over an RPC - 10EE or any other 3-P load motor - by all means, use one.

    An MG era 10EE does NOT need a VFD, and is more robust and trouble-free run off an RPC even than off a Phase-Perfect.

    Static "Converter"? That's an Oxymoron. Not a converter at all.

    Mere pre-packaged Monkey-Patch to trick a 3-P motor into running "dropped phase", and HOT at about 31% of nameplate instead of just sitting at zero RPM and humming "fanless room heater that also blows"... but fuses or CB's, and not por le sport.

    That ain't "running".

    That's pretending to run vs a decent RPC that can provide 90+ % of load-motor nameplate.

    2CW

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    Good input, so your bottom line is more about the robustness of the RPC verses the VFD. I can appreciate that. I will investigate what solutions for a RPC look like. Regarding changing caps in the VFD...yeah, I would never see that happening....these drives are disposable at the price they are going for these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    Good input, so your bottom line is more about the robustness of the RPC verses the VFD. I can appreciate that. I will investigate what solutions for a RPC look like. Regarding changing caps in the VFD...yeah, I would never see that happening....these drives are disposable at the price they are going for these days.
    Yup. But the cost of disposables does add-up over the long-term, be it a year, five years, even fifteen years. Lybarger's Corollary to Sod's Law ( All else being equal, YOU LOSE! ) sez they'll always fail at the worst possible time, so emergency- f**k-with is an even greater nuisance/expense than the amortized costs are.

    The RPC, by comparison, is basically "wire and forget".

    I chose one of Jim's "Phase Craft" units AFTER buying meself a brand-new Brazilian-made "Weg" 10 HP motor. He configures the Phase-Craft differently based on motor RPM, so I went for a sweet deal - inbound shipping included - on the motor first, so I'd know what to order from him.

    At 10 HP, it will also start and run any other SINGLE 3-P machine I own (7.5 HP Cazeneuve lathe, 7 HP Alzmetall DP, 5 HP ++ Quartet mill, etc.)

    If ever I need more? I can drop a 5 HP, 7.5 HP, or another 10 HP 3-P motor onto the line as supplementary idler once the primary RPC Idler is up.

    AND/OR just start and run one or more of the above machine-tools, unloaded. Which is more likely, given there is but one of me, and no more than one machine I'd ever need to have doing useful work at the same time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    I will let the group know. I just haven't figured out why this isn't a good option, but yet no one has apparently done it? Not really looking to add another 5th "motor" (and or generator or two) into the mix that a RPC would add to run the lathe.
    Brian aka rakort aka rak
    I didn't say it wasn't a good option, I'm just not aware of anyone who's doing it. It certainly wouldn't surprise me to find out that there are MG-drive 10EEs with VFDs. But the last time I looked into it, it was about $500 for a VFD that would do the job. If you can now get one for around $125 that will work, great.

    Be aware that the MG drive's dynamic braking relies on having full field voltage to quickly stop the spindle. If you cut power to the MG's motor, field voltage will fall as the MG winds down. You might want to time how long it takes to stop the spindle from full speed by just interrupting C3 vs. interrupting C3 and dropping out the VFD.

    Out of curiosity, what's driving the desire/need for the emergency stop function?

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    I didn't say it wasn't a good option, I'm just not aware of anyone who's doing it. It certainly wouldn't surprise me to find out that there are MG-drive 10EEs with VFDs. But the last time I looked into it, it was about $500 for a VFD that would do the job. If you can now get one for around $125 that will work, great.

    Be aware that the MG drive's dynamic braking relies on having full field voltage to quickly stop the spindle. If you cut power to the MG's motor, field voltage will fall as the MG winds down. You might want to time how long it takes to stop the spindle from full speed by just interrupting C3 vs. interrupting C3 and dropping out the VFD.

    Out of curiosity, what's driving the desire/need for the emergency stop function?

    Cal
    Yes this could be interesting. I agree with your sediments that a 5 HP single phase VFD being $125 is surprisingly cheap. Thats why I'm struggling with the concept of a $200-500 RPC. Yes I could probably get a free 3 phase donor motor at wok, but still at $125 for a VFD? NO matter what it's low risk.

    I'm totally on board with e-stops not killing the VFD.....that'd be "coast stop" and that is why I am dedicated in this drive resto scenario to get all of the original DC controls including the brake working.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Out of curiosity, what's driving the desire/need for the emergency stop function?
    Cal
    Off, forgot to answer....just a safety nut, engineering manager here in a paper mill where safety trumps everything...its in my blood. I added two "coast" wanabee estop buttons to the vertical mill I just revived from the dead with a vfd (i.e no braking).
    This lathe has a lot more snort than that mill and I wana be able to stop it!

    I liked an idea I saw recently to restoring an old AB foot switch to act as an estop trip.

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    so few more dumb newb questions if you yalls don't mind?

    what is an appropriate ratio to drive the exciter generator?

    my-monarch-found-16-.jpg

    00z0z_4l5prp4n53k_1200x900.jpg


    ?

    thanks
    rak

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    This looks like project in itself?

    Clutch seems sketchy....maybe just flush it out with carb cleaner and hope for the best? I hear the setscrews are a bitch.
    img_20180314_175654086.jpg

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    do these "bolts" really go down to the bottom and serve to level the 3-point setup?

    img_20180316_191929714.jpgimg_20180316_191929714.jpg

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    WTB......anyone got a half nut lever? I haven't been able to get mine to move.....probably why the knob is broken off the end. Possibly a frozen up interlock pin / ball / spring?

    img_20180316_190428655.jpg

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    Welcome to the 10EE owner's club.

    I got my 10EE with MG set about 30 years ago...

    I'll just share that I experienced a lot of maintenance issues with this drive. Always repairable, but part were expensive and which parts to replace not always straight forward to diagnose. You will be dealing with a whole bunch of tired components and not be sure which one is the most tired.

    I switched to a VFD driving a 3 phase spindle motor nearly 20 years ago, keeping the backgear. This upgrade has worked PERFECTLY.

    just my two cents. The only real problem with my 10EE is that I just cannot stand to run a lesser machine

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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    WTB......anyone got a half nut lever? I haven't been able to get mine to move.....probably why the knob is broken off the end. Possibly a frozen up interlock pin / ball / spring?
    The knob just to the left has to be in the middle position for the half nut lever to be operable.

    Bob

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    Agreed the direction knob needs to be in the middle, but there is no detectible middle or detent, I've fiddled with it a little without success so far. That's why on wondering if the interlock is jammed up.


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