Noisy Spindle Bearing
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  1. #1
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    Default Noisy Spindle Bearing

    Gentlemen

    I am cleaning up a recently acquired 1969 10EE 30" lathe. This lathe is equipped with a Baldor 5HP VFD drive (no back gear). This was originally a 480v machine and I have been testing it on single phase 480 temporarily until I can equip it with the proper VFD. I have a Fuji ACE VFD which can drive this motor from 240 single phase and am looking forward to getting this set up and operating and expect it will be a good setup.

    Unfortunately, I made an unwanted discovery. I notice that when operating the spindle at low RPM (under 100) the pulley -side of the spindle bearing is making a bad sound approximately once every 5 revolutions. Something to do with the bearing race I am sure but that's as much as I know. I can't attach a video unfortunately. I removed the flat belt and am only turning the spindle.

    The spindle sounds 'normal' at higher speed, although my expectation was it would be more quiet than it actually is.

    I have checked the oil level (single sightglass) and the operation of the tach gear scraper and little mini-reservoir at the top an that appears to be OK.

    So I think the only course is to remove the spindle and take a look.

    1. Can someone with decent skills perform the disassembly / reassembly? (i.e. me)
    2. Are special tools required?
    3. Is sanity required?

    Thanks
    Gerry Block

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    From my experience with a CVA (same same but different) you will need to make a special puller for jacking the spindle out. It uses studs that screw into the spindle nose cover bolts and then a long piece of allthread down the spindle with a washer and nut at the pulley end that you tighten to slowly push it out

    (After undoing the collar nuts that retain everything)

    Its not that bad a job just take it slowly and don't get frustrated.

    Do not pick up a hammer.

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

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    Do some searching on here. A fellow did a very good detailed write up some time back.

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    OK got it. I will look for that thread and study it. Thanks

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    Removing is easy, just make sure to unscrew the inch and half set screw on the back of the headstock. If you get new bearings here is the info, read all the way thru.

    "new" spindle/ new bearings, 10EE WIAD old style rear bearing headstock

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    Quote Originally Posted by BSCustoms View Post
    Do some searching on here. A fellow did a very good detailed write up some time back.
    10ee spindle removal

  7. Likes mllud22, Colt45 liked this post
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    Thank you Cal. I think I have all the links now to study. I have been monitoring the Monarch forum for quite a while, but I admit I find searching on PM not easy when I'm looking for something specific. Works better to go back to Google and it finds the thread.

    I was confused about the simplest detail - removing the drive pulley assy - until I realized that because the lathe has a collet closer there is an drive tube threaded on the end of the shaft which also serves as the jam nut for the drive pulley. It has hole for a small johnson bar to unthread it, but it won't easily budge so I'll work on that one.

    Thanks all for assistance. Great forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SN3308 View Post
    Thank you Cal. I think I have all the links now to study. I have been monitoring the Monarch forum for quite a while, but I admit I find searching on PM not easy when I'm looking for something specific. Works better to go back to Google and it finds the thread.

    I was confused about the simplest detail - removing the drive pulley assy - until I realized that because the lathe has a collet closer there is an drive tube threaded on the end of the shaft which also serves as the jam nut for the drive pulley. It has hole for a small johnson bar to unthread it, but it won't easily budge so I'll work on that one.

    Thanks all for assistance. Great forum.
    Check first two things before you pull it:

    - Preload (of the front and most crucial bearings).

    - Whether the noise is coming from the REAR, and LESS critical bearing.

    My faint recollection is that it was around 13 revolutions before the precession of one of my "marginal" front bearings repeated the position of the roller at fault?

    A 5 rev repeat might be the rear one? Check your TIR. Rear has far less effect than front.

    You should acquire or fab a proper "pin spanner" for that jam nut, too. The holes are very shallow. Use of a length of ignorant rod in a hole to tommy-bar it tends to tilt and wallow-out the hole badly and right away early.

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    It is mostly if no all coming from the rear - I can hear it even more clearly by positioning a microphone there and listening. I saw in a related 'removing the spindle' post that someone in the act of removing the spindle got the rear bearings out very early in the extraction process. I will take this approach, and see about swapping just the rear bearing to see how far that gets me. I have not measured the accuracy, which I will do to the best of my ability. I am more interested in the machine running quietly than in any theoretical accuracy, just on principle. I'm sure the two things are related.

    In the mean time, I spoke with General Bearing. They still have 4 sets of the front bearings left, and guess what - they want to sell me all 4 sets. They are saying that the one-off price is $1675 but $1200 for all 4. I think this is pretty negotiable. Any interest on anyone's part for the others? My personal guess is that they can be gotten for the 'original' price of $1000 a set if I order all of them at one time.

    Regarding the spanner - yes, I'll make one! Its already out of round from somebody doing this at least once.

    Gerry Block

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    Quote Originally Posted by SN3308 View Post
    It is mostly if no all coming from the rear - I can hear it even more clearly by positioning a microphone there and listening. I saw in a related 'removing the spindle' post that someone in the act of removing the spindle got the rear bearings out very early in the extraction process. I will take this approach, and see about swapping just the rear bearing to see how far that gets me. I have not measured the accuracy, which I will do to the best of my ability. I am more interested in the machine running quietly than in any theoretical accuracy, just on principle. I'm sure the two things are related.

    In the mean time, I spoke with General Bearing. They still have 4 sets of the front bearings left, and guess what - they want to sell me all 4 sets. They are saying that the one-off price is $1675 but $1200 for all 4. I think this is pretty negotiable. Any interest on anyone's part for the others? My personal guess is that they can be gotten for the 'original' price of $1000 a set if I order all of them at one time.

    Regarding the spanner - yes, I'll make one! Its already out of round from somebody doing this at least once.

    Gerry Block
    I have two 10EE. if they mean $1,200 for the LOT, I'll take two sets out of the four for $600 if you want to do that. If they mean $1,200 each, my ones are not so bad I'll replace them at all. Somewhere around $800, I might take ONE set.

    I'm not sure it is any GOOD, but I have a rear bearing sitting here on a part-out spindle a prior Pilgrim robbed for its front bearings.

    Just sent you a contact email.

    BTW ...Even the "adjustable" pin-spanners (and"hook" spanners) work OK vs loose pins. I have enough stuff around that needs hook or pin, I've gradually been scarfing them up rather than fab, but it isn't rocket science fabbing htem. Just time consuming and time always in short supply.

    Even the H-F ones are better than loose pins.

    The face pin one is what yah need for twisting 10EE sight-glass bezels to get the old cork gasket broken loose without breaking the fragile flint glass they used before going over to present-day Lexan discs.

    A 3-pronged adjsutable Bergeon watch case back tool - or the Chicom bad-copy H-F also carry can also do that.

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    Well, let me talk to those guys a little more and see what they will really do. I have read years worth of chatter about these bearings on this forum and the only thing I know for sure is they are hard to find. There is always the envious story of someone finding a NOS pair in the back of the next guy's workbench, but that stuff doesn't happen to me. I'll have to buy them.

    I'm going to take copious notes about my disassembly which at the end I'll publish for the next guy. But nevertheless I did finally get the rear drive components removed off the spindle and cleaned up the gunk on the shaft to take a gross measurement. (BTW I don't have a really suitable test indicator or even a good enough stand - I'll have to rectify that). I of course isolated the motor and it is perfect - and silent.

    The drive end of the spindle shaft looks like it is moving +/- .0005 once per revolution. I won’t pass any judgement about the cause until I replace the rear bearing pair, which need replacing judging by sound.

    The front of the shaft is moving something on the order of +/- .0001, once per revolution at the mouth of the taper. I am not yet going ascribe what is the cause and what is the effect. I would guess the front could be moving due to the rear, or vice-versa, or the spindle could be bent which I wouldn't think would be likely, or its not clean, or....

    So first I will get the rear bearing pair and see if I can remove/replace without disassembling the entire spindle, as I learned happened to one fellow by accident.

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    Our pernicious drama-queen / barking-mad nut-case / mendacious stalker-troll / COVID-orphan being Hell-bent on rendering adult exchanges of information problematic, anywhere on PM?

    I'll onpass what has worked as to measuring techniques directly to you by email in the coming days and weeks.

    Meanwhile? "First, do no harm"

    ONCE per revolution also needs to be vetted as to whether it is even in the same polar coordinate position, every revolution.

    Or if it is "precessing" as rolling-element bearing fails are wont to do as they reveal themselves.

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    A 1969 has (should have) the angular contact bearing pair for the rear bearing. eBay has high precision bearing pairs in virtually every size for cheap, start looking there. The issue with the front pair is the flange, that is the reason eBay isn’t good for it. Even so, when I was buying my front pair, there were a couple of 2MMF/2MM pairs on eBay, just not the right size.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bll230 View Post
    A 1969 has (should have) the angular contact bearing pair for the rear bearing. eBay has high precision bearing pairs in virtually every size for cheap, start looking there. The issue with the front pair is the flange, that is the reason eBay isn’t good for it. Even so, when I was buying my front pair, there were a couple of 2MMF/2MM pairs on eBay, just not the right size.
    Yes that makes sense. In the mean time I took the time to get a better dial indicato(- +/-4 mils) and spent more time cleaning the shaft where I am measuring. So now I am in the position of having better information and looking a little silly as a result. My original problem - the sound - is still there, but the runout is totally different than I reported. On the rear shaft there is no discernable movement at all on the .0001/division dial indicator. I looked at it under a magnifying glass to be certain of this statement. This is true even as the rear bearing makes its 'once every five revolution' sounds. So the runout is unmeasurable by me.

    In the front, there are some small dings on the inside surface so if I pick the best spot I get +/- one needle width (+/- .00001?)

    With the 5C collet chuck installed (after a thorough inspection and cleaning of the mating surfaces) my best visual estimate is +/- .00002".

    So it sure looks like I should tuck my tail between my legs and leave it alone.

    I also have installed the Fuji Frenic VFD and that seems to work very well although a little convoluted to program (unlike the Baldor). I did not enable the feedback encoder. I don't believe it will provide any advantage. The VFD control inputs are interfaced directly to the drum switch and a single-turn linear potentiometer was installed in the lathe speed control box as the VFD speed control. So the operation of the lathe is very much like the original design - turn on the power, set the speed, move the handle.

    The electrical interlock is provided that will not allow power-up if the handle is not in 'neutral' position.

    Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by SN3308 View Post
    In the front, there are some small dings on the inside surface so if I pick the best spot I get +/- one needle width (+/- .00001?)

    With the 5C collet chuck installed (after a thorough inspection and cleaning of the mating surfaces) my best visual estimate is +/- .00002".
    I found the most significant dings about 2/3rd's of the way back- right on the front edge where the taper resumes after the relief back of the D1-3 cams. Apparently, tapered goods being inserted are at an agle often enough to batter that edge quite often.

    Nuisance work, stoning those insde there, but I hadn't gotten it good enough, first time I tried to vet the bearings. Knew I had an issue. Wasn't sure where, why, nor how much.

    Second go, taper as good as I could make it, blued-up and finally taking one of Brian Miller's superb test bars to put the indicator tip onto, I was looking at bearing error, rather than just spindle taper surface glitches.

    Your figures look right decent! The numbers might not actually improve, even if you go that extra mile.

    Your confidence IN the numbers can improve!


    I did not enable the feedback encoder. I don't believe it will provide any advantage.
    If you HAVE an encoder, by all means use it. Tacho or encoder feedback can either/both widen the usable stable RPM range, or improve the stability of holding by anywhere from double to a full order of magnitude.

    The VFD manual will have the info. Same again, DC drives.

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    Regarding the encoder. The way I understand it the new generation VFD's actually has a good idea of where the motor armature is. And of course the synthesized 3 phase output is spot-on in frequency. So as long as the armature stays locked to the magnetic field, as a system it should remain very accurate in speed. The inner loop feedback in the VFD is occurring in the waveform generation domain (probably at a very high rate of in excess of 1Khz) and making corrections to keep the armature in lock.

    So that is my story. When I get motivated I will make some tests and measure the speed performance (monitoring the encoder output with an oscilloscope) in both modes and see what is actually happening. But let me get some of my other issues resolved, like getting those nasty pulleys back on!

    And by the way, the internal tach generator driving the speed meter is spot on.

    Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by SN3308 View Post
    Regarding the encoder. The way I understand it the new generation VFD's actually has a good idea of where the motor armature is.
    They do, indeed, or more usefully, whether the motor is deviating from the optimal, "sensorless vector" is it?

    Anyhoo, "new technology" is easily old enough to vote, and works very well, long-since. AC motors are at-core"frequency animals" that care more about attempted sync, HP and torque to acccomplish it are "chasing" the goal.

    DC motor is the opposite. Torque animal. RPM is actually just a byproduct.
    Comparable integral feedback for DC is the "IR" loop. but... use of even an analog tachogenerator can improve RPM-holding under load tenfold if not twentyfold, if not a hundredfold.

    Downside is the analog tacho costs from $250 to $2500, a Reliance MOUNT for it is over $250! You don't even want to KNOW that a 5 HP Reliance RPM III Dee Cee motor can have a MSRP of over $11,000 USD?

    VFD + 3-P motor is right decent value for poverty-biscuit budgets!



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