Not a rebuild or restoration - I swear!
Close
Login to Your Account
Likes Likes:  0
Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Wichita, KS
    Posts
    133
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    34

    Default Not a rebuild or restoration - I swear!

    Since I bought my 10EE, the cross-slide had a lot of play in it. The gib was tightened as much as it could be and the backside would lift when taking heavy cuts with a boring bar or when parting. The HS end of the carriage has always been low, as well, with the gib bearings not having enough travel to take up the slack. I picked up another carriage, also worn, but not as badly last summer and am finally getting to putting it on.

    This started out simple. Just swap the carriage. Oh, but the gib bearings have been painted over and a couple won't spin at all. So, now the carriage is off, the apron is off, and I'm hoping to avoid much more disassembly. I want to have a look at the half nuts, though, as the threads don't always pick up in the right spot, even when they are engaged in the same spot on the dial. Having the ELSR makes it easy to back the carriage up for the next pass, but sometimes I need to move the carriage way back to test fit a thread and it's faster to just do so manually.

    I measured the crests of the threads on the threading leadscrew near the HS and they are roughly 0.060". Near the middle of the leadscrew, they are slighly rounded and measure closer to 0.040, IIRC. The wear is pretty gradual, but obviously the thread spacing isn't completely right. Good enough for short threading jobs, but I couldn't make another leadscrew on it and have it come out right.

    I was concerned about the rack and pinion since the carriage was riding so low, and there is visibly more wear near the ends of the rack teeth than in the root. After getting it cleaned up a little, it is still there, of course, but it doesn't look as bad as it did. I can also see the wear in the pinion, but there's still a good bit of meat left, so I am inclined to leave it as is. I will never put the hours on it that caused the wear that's there, so it will probably still outlive me.

    20200504_224123s.jpg

    20200505_230659s.jpg

    This wasn't supposed to be a new project, but I guess it is!

    Dave

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    31,468
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    9886

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by whateg0 View Post
    Since I bought my 10EE, the cross-slide had a lot of play in it. The gib was tightened as much as it could be and the backside would lift when taking heavy cuts with a boring bar or when parting. The HS end of the carriage has always been low, as well, with the gib bearings not having enough travel to take up the slack. I picked up another carriage, also worn, but not as badly last summer and am finally getting to putting it on.

    This started out simple. Just swap the carriage. Oh, but the gib bearings have been painted over and a couple won't spin at all. So, now the carriage is off, the apron is off, and I'm hoping to avoid much more disassembly. I want to have a look at the half nuts, though, as the threads don't always pick up in the right spot, even when they are engaged in the same spot on the dial. Having the ELSR makes it easy to back the carriage up for the next pass, but sometimes I need to move the carriage way back to test fit a thread and it's faster to just do so manually.

    I measured the crests of the threads on the threading leadscrew near the HS and they are roughly 0.060". Near the middle of the leadscrew, they are slighly rounded and measure closer to 0.040, IIRC. The wear is pretty gradual, but obviously the thread spacing isn't completely right. Good enough for short threading jobs, but I couldn't make another leadscrew on it and have it come out right.

    I was concerned about the rack and pinion since the carriage was riding so low, and there is visibly more wear near the ends of the rack teeth than in the root. After getting it cleaned up a little, it is still there, of course, but it doesn't look as bad as it did. I can also see the wear in the pinion, but there's still a good bit of meat left, so I am inclined to leave it as is. I will never put the hours on it that caused the wear that's there, so it will probably still outlive me.

    20200504_224123s.jpg

    20200505_230659s.jpg

    This wasn't supposed to be a new project, but I guess it is!

    Dave
    Aright. "Not a..." and chips to be made leaves "Redneck Monkey Patching 101", yah?

    Racks are in two sections on 20" 'ers, three on 30" -ers. ISTR the PM trick is to swap them?

    Their depth of engagement with the pinion, AND yer LS wear may be less a problem if/as/when yah get the carriage lifted by Moglice (or whatever) back up to where the apron's "guts" are on the same CL as the LS and surfacing shaft CL's.

    Same time that is done, the anti-lift roller bearings should once again have enough adjustment range to bear properly.

    Cross slide is sloppy? Well.. Cee-clamp the f**ker for each pass, sneak-up on final, and we'll find you a clapped-out Niles to teach the "JFDI" way of life to the youngsters on!



    Biggest barrier IMNSHO is yer still runnin' wore-out unless yah get "at least" the inside face of the front inverted Vee (side AWAY from the operator..) nice and straight. That's the primary locater once under load, and why it has a groove in it already.

    Outer flat of the front vee won't be all that badly worn. Flat at the rear "matters", just not as much.

    TS and its ways? If yah ain't goin' whole-hog, just run what yah got and compensate like a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.

    Rare to ask a TS to MOVE when even in use, AT ALL, so that's easier than it sounds, and yah prolly already do it.

    SWAP a saddle? Sorry. I don't see any more gain in that than rotating bald tires of a size as don't even fit the same wheels.

    OEM one is wore to match the ways, THIS lathe. Alien one wore to fit some OTHER lathe.

    Either one will need "lifted".

    If yah don't do "at least" that much, the rest is no more use than masturbation interruptus.

    2 10EE worth, both worn, just differently...and still way to Hell and gone nicer than ANY of the old Niles & even L&S I used to HAVE to run "as-had" .... or go hungry. For-real, not as a figure of speech.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Walla Walla Wine and Wild Turkey
    Posts
    4,752
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    433

    Default

    Another machine from local plutonium production, this 1951 manufacturing model is heavily worn, the front gib/ball bearings are far from contact so they are not even there.
    The amazing thing about the machine is, it can still produce accurate parts. It does have a problem of turning a continuous length of 12", error of around .002". However a grinder spindle can still be produced because the critical areas are short lengths. A new ee, can be spec to .0002" taper in 12".
    The machine to the left of this one is in very good condition, I don't use it very much, certainly not for polishing the rust off a part.
    I can avoid the worst of the wear when machining a part in a chuck, by moving the tool post as far forward as possible, this keeps the carriage from climbing up on the unworn portion of the ways.

    This is the most basic of the ee line, no threading, 6 power feeds! The lever has the same function as the C,D,E, knob, it can shift with the machine in motion, but disengage the feed clutch. That feature can make things go faster with 3 feeds right at hand, and not stopping the machine!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Wichita, KS
    Posts
    133
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Aright. "Not a..." and chips to be made leaves "Redneck Monkey Patching 101", yah?
    I'm hoping for about half a tick better than that, but yeah, still not a perfect machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Racks are in two sections on 20" 'ers, three on 30" -ers. ISTR the PM trick is to swap them?

    Their depth of engagement with the pinion, AND yer LS wear may be less a problem if/as/when yah get the carriage lifted by Moglice (or whatever) back up to where the apron's "guts" are on the same CL as the LS and surfacing shaft CL's.

    Same time that is done, the anti-lift roller bearings should once again have enough adjustment range to bear properly.
    The replacement saddle is about 0.020" taller measuring from the top surface above the ways across a 1" dowel in the vee. That won't get it back to original height/engagement, no. I was hoping for better than it is now, though. I guess there is also a possibility that since the tooth profile of the rack is not even, it could try to bind? Maybe not. I might swap the racks, though. I've read it's not hard to do, and the wear at the ends is definitely less than in the middle.

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Cross slide is sloppy? Well.. Cee-clamp the f**ker for each pass, sneak-up on final, and we'll find you a clapped-out Niles to teach the "JFDI" way of life to the youngsters on!
    Works fine for boring, but how do you part with the cross slide clamped like that? As it is now, even if I'm parting with very little infeed, to the point I am getting almost dust instead of a real chip, the tool will still sometimes try to grab and it yanks it down. Hasn't broken anything yet, but I don't like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    7]TS and its ways? If yah ain't goin' whole-hog, just run what yah got and compensate like a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.

    Rare to ask a TS to MOVE when even in use, AT ALL, so that's easier than it sounds, and yah prolly already do it.
    I'm not too worried about the TS. The inner ways are already worn as evidenced by the fact that the handle is tight halfway through it's movement at the end of the lathe, but in the middle, it comes around all the way to its stop when locking in place. Interesting, both of these saddles have bearing material there, though. I guess it's expected that eventually it will ride on that surface, so put the material there for when that happens? Or was it done that way with the intent of spreading the wear?

    20200505_204125s.jpg

    I know it's not much of an improvement. Compared to what was there, though, it's got to be a little better, though. I agree that the "right" thing would be to go whole hog, but that just isn't in the cards today.

    Dave

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    marysville ohio
    Posts
    9,892
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2820
    Likes (Received)
    6593

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by whateg0 View Post
    I'm hoping for about half a tick better than that, but yeah, still not a perfect machine.



    The replacement saddle is about 0.020" taller measuring from the top surface above the ways across a 1" dowel in the vee. That won't get it back to original height/engagement, no. I was hoping for better than it is now, though. I guess there is also a possibility that since the tooth profile of the rack is not even, it could try to bind? Maybe not. I might swap the racks, though. I've read it's not hard to do, and the wear at the ends is definitely less than in the middle.



    Works fine for boring, but how do you part with the cross slide clamped like that? As it is now, even if I'm parting with very little infeed, to the point I am getting almost dust instead of a real chip, the tool will still sometimes try to grab and it yanks it down. Hasn't broken anything yet, but I don't like it.



    I'm not too worried about the TS. The inner ways are already worn as evidenced by the fact that the handle is tight halfway through it's movement at the end of the lathe, but in the middle, it comes around all the way to its stop when locking in place. Interesting, both of these saddles have bearing material there, though. I guess it's expected that eventually it will ride on that surface, so put the material there for when that happens? Or was it done that way with the intent of spreading the wear?

    20200505_204125s.jpg

    I know it's not much of an improvement. Compared to what was there, though, it's got to be a little better, though. I agree that the "right" thing would be to go whole hog, but that just isn't in the cards today.

    Dave
    You can't just swap carriages like underwear! The new one needs to be scraped to fit your lathe. If you are going to swap carriages without scraping why don't you just glue some .060 turkite on and run it without scraping, at least it will raise the carriage like you want. It will still be a shit job but at least the carriage will raise by more than .020......

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    31,468
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    9886

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by whateg0 View Post
    Works fine for boring, but how do you part with the cross slide clamped like that?

    Ermm.. since 1960.. with a decent hand hacksaw, actually. Can't part worth shit on what I started on (South Bend and Logan 9, 10, 13).

    Not at all hard, sawing in motion. Just pop a tool-tip, hand-held graver, or file notch were yah want it first so the saw blade STAYS where yah want it.

    I recommend the hand-held graver.

    Ditto for chamfering and radiusing. Keep the working side off the fulcrum SHORT. REALLY SHORT! It ain't wood yer working, but tough alloys of steel.

    As to the sawing? Keep clearing the gullets. Keep the spindle turning AND use full-blade saw strokes or near-as-dammit with the hand hacksaw.

    Did I mention clearing the gullets?

    Now .. trashed machine tools can still do good work.

    But they ain't ordinarily FAST at it.

    At some point.. yah either do a proper rebuild.. or just go and find another lathe as doesn't NEED either rebuild nor "compensation time-waste" so badly.

    "In between" - putting scarce time and wasted skill - into HALF ASSED rebuild can be the killer. Yah run out of the years of yer life all too soon and don't have shit to show for the effort. DAMHIKT!

    Best to run what yah got, waste no time at all... and go find that better machine SOONER!

    Or bite the bullet, Study-up. Tool-up. Train-up. And do a bitchin' GOOD rebuild "the RIGHT way".

    Did I fail to mention that "in-between" is a killer?

    We don't call it "GENIUS patching 101" do we?

    Anyone up for a fresh banana?


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Wichita, KS
    Posts
    133
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    You can't just swap carriages like underwear! The new one needs to be scraped to fit your lathe. If you are going to swap carriages without scraping why don't you just glue some .060 turkite on and run it without scraping, at least it will raise the carriage like you want. It will still be a shit job but at least the carriage will raise by more than .020......
    The replacement already has what I believe to be Turcite applied, so I do kind of expect that wear-in to occur. The real reason for replacement isn't even the wear in the bottom; it was the fact that I can't tighten the cross-slide gib enough to take up the slack.

    Dave

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    31,468
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    9886

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by whateg0 View Post
    The replacement already has what I believe to be Turcite applied, so I do kind of expect that wear-in to occur. The real reason for replacement isn't even the wear in the bottom; it was the fact that I can't tighten the cross-slide gib enough to take up the slack.

    Dave
    C'mon Dave! "kind of expect" in one hand, s**t on the other, see which one does "the blinding obvious" FIRST!

    Hundred-dollar pack of all thicknesses of sheet Bronze shim stock shudda been in yer kit for ages, already. If not, rob an empty bean-tin or sumthin' for thin stock.

    'bout 30 minutes to an hour to get that worn gib backshimmed.

    Now... sanity check as to half-assed Monkey-patching, 'coz you've just "engineered" a NEW pain in the ass.

    The f**ker will NOW need ANNOYING adjustment as yah go and most of the time .. because it is still running in an hourglass or beer-keg shaped track - no longer a nice parallel one!

    Bite the bullet, scrape that true, and yah can put the ignorant Cee clamp CRUTCH back in with the wood butchering tools.

    And yah didn't even need to UNBOLT the carriage, let alone swap it.

    This vast wish-for implemented with HALF-vast methods is reminding me of the country song where he sez he dug through his closet and:

    "..put on my cleanest dirty shirt".

    Too much pain. Too little gain, one dirty shirt much the same as any other.

    Learn the mysteries of "laundry" and apply them. Or buy new - or clean USED - shirts.

    Machine tools have similar rules.

    TANSTAAFL Waste of time tryimg to "kid yourself"

    Do it right. Or not at all.

    And JF "run what yah got" until yah can get better goods.

    Cant "fake" those by any amount of f**kin' around "detours".

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Maryland
    Posts
    37
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    As to the sawing? Keep clearing the gullets. "Keep the spindle turning AND use full-blade saw strokes or near-as-dammit with the hand hacksaw."

    I forget who it was, perhaps Keith Rucker or one of the other guys who post machining videos on Youtube, has a video where he used a hand held power bandsaw to part off a big chunk of steel with the lathe turning. Not the recommended method but a hand hacksaw is not a recommended practice either. The bandsaw sure is less work and faster.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    marysville ohio
    Posts
    9,892
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2820
    Likes (Received)
    6593

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    C'mon Dave! "kind of expect" in one hand, s**t on the other, see which one does "the blinding obvious" FIRST!

    Hundred-dollar pack of all thicknesses of sheet Bronze shim stock shudda been in yer kit for ages, already. If not, rob an empty bean-tin or sumthin' for thin stock.

    'bout 30 minutes to an hour to get that worn gib backshimmed.

    Now... sanity check as to half-assed Monkey-patching, 'coz you've just "engineered" a NEW pain in the ass.

    The f**ker will NOW need ANNOYING adjustment as yah go and most of the time .. because it is still running in an hourglass or beer-keg shaped track - no longer a nice parallel one!

    Bite the bullet, scrape that true, and yah can put the ignorant Cee clamp CRUTCH back in with the wood butchering tools.

    And yah didn't even need to UNBOLT the carriage, let alone swap it.

    This vast wish-for implemented with HALF-vast methods is reminding me of the country song where he sez he dug through his closet and:

    "..put on my cleanest dirty shirt".

    Too much pain. Too little gain, one dirty shirt much the same as any other.

    Learn the mysteries of "laundry" and apply them. Or buy new - or clean USED - shirts.

    Machine tools have similar rules.

    TANSTAAFL Waste of time tryimg to "kid yourself"

    Do it right. Or not at all.

    And JF "run what yah got" until yah can get better goods.

    Cant "fake" those by any amount of f**kin' around "detours".
    Yeah, everybody knows that!


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •