Parker/Eurotherm 514C/507 4Q SSD DC Retrofit into 1961 10EE Modular - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    The DC Drive's needs - not JUST Eurotherm/Parker-SSD, but the "lost volts" of any Thyristor-class drive on single-phase input.

    It has now been a VERY long time since SCR's were limited to being gated ON, then having been 'locked' in that state, having to await a zero-cross of the power they are conducting to drop back into the OFF state.

    Several types can be gated OFF during the conductive part of the cycle, then switched ON again before the half sine-wave fed to them has completed its journey.

    With clever triggering and advanced SCR array modules, it is not uncommon for 3-Phase ONLY Thyristor drives to be able to simulate 24 pulses from the inherent 6 pulses of a 3-phase input, both sides rectified.

    The best a single-phase fed SCR-class DC Drive can support is one-third of that, or 6 pulse emulation where but TWO pulses are at its input. The clever lads at Shackelton didn't go quite that far - a 514C is a rather primitive beast compared to their larger digitally controlled DC Drives. Nonetheless it is a far more sophisticated bit of kit than, for example, the otherwise quite serviceable KB-Penta 180 VDC 4Q drives or a Beel/BICL D510(X) 1Q drive, even when 'boosted'.

    Why is it we NEED a voltage boost? The physics of it all. We have wide and deep troughs to fill in the wave form in order to deliver smooth DC output. Some folks - PM members included, have convinced themselves they are getting 230 VDC out of an UNboosted 230 VAC in single phase drive.

    Simply put, they are measuring incorrectly, and that has been biting 10EE solid-state DC Drive performance right square in the a** for far too many years.

    KB-Penta, Minarik, Danfoss-Graham, Dart, Emerson / Schneider Control Techniques, SECO, et al would NOT ALL be 'telling the same lie' when they rate their drives at 180 VDC off 230 VAC single-phase in. Fifty or so volts have 'gone missing'.

    The Eurotherm/Parker-SSD 514C manuals give us something more useful than 'just' that fifty volts. They list the gap at three different in/out ranges. We can ignore the 90 VDC off 110/120 AC input one. The other two are more useful:

    180 VDC out @ 220/240 VAC in.

    Midpoint, 230 VAC, same 50 Volts, or 22% gone missing as all other SCR-class drive makers. NB: PWM drives are different.

    320 VDC out @ 380/415 VAC in.

    Midpoint, 397.5 VAC, less 320 VDC, and we've now lost 77.5 Volts, or 19.5%.

    The 10EE motors only want 230 to 265 VDC so let's figure 20% loss and add that on to the upper bound:

    265 VDC @ 120% = 318 VAC in. We will want to apply a choke as load-side ripple filter, and that can lose a few volts as well. I recommend 320 VAC input as the lower bound.

    My own triple-transformer rig is nominally 349 VAC capable, 277+48+24, able to provide around 280 VDC ...but then.... I make far more tests than chips, and can switch-out the third booster for 318 VAC anyway, but our everyday JF run the b***h 'sweet spot' is about 320 VAC to 340 VAC

    So, short of finding an appropriate euro-spec transformer or ordering a costly custom-wind, or winding our own (which is actually easy-peasy for most old-school Ham Radio operators and even quite a few 'hollow state' Audiophiles)...

    How do we get there?

    We 'stack' more common and easier to find transformers.

    Next post...
    Last edited by Monarchist; 04-09-2017 at 04:41 AM.

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    Using stock transformers that can be combined as suitable candidates for 'stacking':

    Mine are 240->277 VAC @ 5 kVA, 240->48 VAC @ 2kVA, 240->24 VAC @ 1.5 kVA.
    As both of the lesser-voltage and kVA units COULD have been smaller yet, I don't 'really' have the full 8.5 kVA their nameplates sum to. Closer to 6 kVA minimum, 7.5 kVA max.

    That math is 'çlose enough to' this:

    Total voltage 349 VAC.

    277 VAC is 79.4% of total Voltage. We can presume it 'hits the wall' first @ 5,000 VA

    48 VAC is 13.8%. We'll add that percentage of 5 kVA = 688 VA (a 1 kVA or 750 VA might do..).

    24 VAC is 6.9 %. We'll add that percentage of 5 kVA = 345 VA (a 500 VA might do..).

    Roughly 6 kVA, worst-case. In practice, probably 7.5 kVA capable without strain.

    6 kVA @ 349 VAC = 17.2 A. My 3 HP motor wants but 12 A, the 514C maxes out delivering 16 A, and is set to allows a 150% overload for 60 seconds, or 24 A.

    On the input side, 6 kVA @ 240 VAC = 25 A. I use a 30 A capable circuit.

    Example 2:

    Mark has a salvaged Modular drive "T5" transformer rated 5830 VA that measures 300 VAC out off input of around 230 VAC.

    As we knew we would be pushing the limits of a nominally 16 A max 514C-16 to operate a motor that is nameplated @ 18.1 FLA, he added a 32 VAC - I forget whether 1 kVA or 1.5 kVA? (update - it is a 2 kVA).

    Anyway - output was 332 VAC, no-load, nominal total around 6.8 kVA to 7.3 kVA.

    Bottom line?

    - Seek 220-240 VAC primaries on all. 120 VAC in could be made to work in theory, but the doubled Amperage forces costlier wire, and a hard to find single-pole 50-60A breaker.

    - Seek a combination of secondaries that add-up to 320 VAC to 350 VAC.

    - Work towards a 6kVA to 10 kVA total.

    - Don't let a 'too small' transformer become a current bottleneck.

    - Oversizing the SMALL one(s) is much cheaper than oversizing the BIG(GER) one(s).

    If in doubt? Post the specs and ask if you found a 'deal or a dog' as to suitability.

    Tons of PM'er's know more about this s**t than I do. I was just a guy with spare time and a few extra dollars to go digging, 'rediscover' old wheels, and even run destructive tests.

    Hope that covers it all well enough.
    Last edited by Monarchist; 04-09-2017 at 09:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpmar_bt View Post
    Hi,

    I'm interested in the isolation transformer wiring. Could you go into a little more detail about that and how you got to the output voltage?

    Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    Example 2:

    Mark has a salvaged Modular drive "T5" transformer rated 5830 VA that measures 300 VAC out off input of around 230 VAC.

    As we knew we would be pushing the limits of a nominally 16 A max 514C-16 to operate a motor that is nameplated @ 18.1 FLA, he added a 32 VAC - I forget whether 1 kVA or 1.5 kVA? Anyway - output was 332 VAC, no-load, nominal total around 6.8 kVA to 7.3 kVA.
    In addition to doing the math for transformer sizing, at Bill's recommendation, I purchased a bunch of water heater elements and tested the two T5 transformers I had to ensure their ability to provide needed volts/current.

    As Bill mentioned, I'm using the Trenco TR-3856 which is a 5.83KVA. The center tap from this transformer is 300VAC. I also added a 120/240-16/32, 2.0KVA Boost/Buck and wired the secondaries in series with polarity for Boost. With the two transformers, I get ~332VAC at no-load going into the 514C and this is plenty adequate for my GE Kinamatic 5HP. I am able to achieve armature voltages equal to that of the tube/modular setup and have no problem getting base motor speed at full field of 120VDC and my max of 3000 RPM with field weakening.

    _mg_0995-copy.jpg_mg_1017-copy.jpg

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    I see that you don't use the Field DC supplies of either of the two drives. I understand the shunt field coming from the 507 but I'm a bit confused what the series field should be connected too. I'm using a 514C-32 with power from T5 across 22 and 21 (300VAC). Would I connect the series field across 21 and 22 also?

    Thanks
    Rich

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    Nope unless you like to blow fusses and or breakers.The series field should be in series with the armature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichHansen View Post
    I see that you don't use the Field DC supplies of either of the two drives. I understand the shunt field coming from the 507 but I'm a bit confused what the series field should be connected too. I'm using a 514C-32 with power from T5 across 22 and 21 (300VAC). Would I connect the series field across 21 and 22 also?

    Thanks
    Rich
    No, you don't use the field supply section on either SSD, nor any other commodity DC drive. Abandoned as far, far worse than useless. Dangerous, even, should they fail from even just a broken wire.

    They are simply a naked Full-Wave bridge chip not related to the rest of the drive by anything more than a share of PCB and heat sink. No regulation . No filtering. Not even any control or monitoring.

    For most, the high/low voltage connection option - see KB-Penta KBRG-255 manual - only chooses full-wave // HALF wave, so they are even raggedier on the output.

    Instead, we use a full-featured, but 1Q-only SSD 507's normally ARMATURE supply for a 10EE's FIELD so as to get;

    - far smoother output

    - load regulation

    - "sensitivity", rate-of-change, and stability adjustments

    - ability to vary the current/voltage with low-power potentiometer

    - set upper and lower bounds, trip-points and alarms, including the functional equivalent to Field Loss protection relay, and field acceleration and braking relay.

    An SSD 507's signals and control logic are wire-compatible with the 4Q SSD-514C-16 or 514C-32 Armature supply. Their alarm and fault outputs may be utilized to work them together.

    Much "goodness" is reliant on the 4Q or "regenerative" features of the 514C series, such as no need at all of braking resistor, yet still very fast braking, fast reversing (I can shake a can of paint with mine..), determining a "ZERO RPM" point, holding it, and so signaling.

    The "ZERO RPM" signal may be used for Field Economy, idle state, by piping it to the SSD 507. I've tended to just leave the Field powered for warmth so there is less temp swing in the 10EE.

    The SD 507 can be 1Q rather than 4Q because we use Armature reversing rather than Field Reversing for the 10EE, so it is neither switched nor reversed.

    HTH

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichHansen View Post
    I see that you don't use the Field DC supplies of either of the two drives. I understand the shunt field coming from the 507 but I'm a bit confused what the series field should be connected too. I'm using a 514C-32 with power from T5 across 22 and 21 (300VAC). Would I connect the series field across 21 and 22 also?

    Thanks
    Rich
    Rich,
    21-22 is the center tap from the T5 and is ~300VAC. Add a boost transformer to get up to about 330-350VAC. This is the power supply into the 514C at terminals L1/L2 on the 514C. The motor series field is wired in series with the armature field such that your motor is wired S1 to the 514C, S2 to A1, A2 to the 514C. Therefore, at the 514C A+ and A- terminals you connect your motor leads S1 and A2. Hope this helps.
    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by everettengr View Post
    Therefore, at the 514C A+ and A- terminals you connect your motor leads S1 and A2. Hope this helps.
    Mark
    Eh.. this doesn't have to be complicated, no.

    But neither is it always that simple. The GE KinaMatic is but one of several motors Monarch utilized, and they were not identically wound. All 10EE are OLD by now, and many had third-party rebuilds with more motor choices, yet.

    Main determinant as to whether we even have to care at all which one, is whether the minder of the lathe has need of doing WORK - under load, IOW, not just backing away, no tool in the cut - in the Reverse spindle direction as well as forward.

    There are two different tribes of motor at work, here. Compounding or compensating. Monarch used some of each - different motor maker's wont.

    If the motor dataplate is missing, we need to research their publications, or get a photo off the dataplate of the same make and model of motor, because that is where the distinction is to be found.

    Ex:

    If S1, S2 are depicted on the motor's data plate as in series with A1, A2, and also.. differently arranged for each direction of rotation?

    We'd need to provide for reversing that - just as the dataplate shows them differently - to match direction of rotation selected.

    If, OTOH, the dataplate depicts S1,S2 in parallel with A1, A2?

    We may need to provide for "uprighting" the polarity fed to S1, S2 with addition of a Diode full wave bridge. Or a separate, fixed, supply. ELSE use "Field Reversing" to change direction instead of Armature reversing. Not so easily compatible with how we like to run our SSD drives, that last option.

    Otherwise.. if we shortcut the motor's needs, the compounding/compensating will "fight" the DC Drive's actually more sophisticated regulation capability when in reverse AND under load.

    Pretty much a "don't care" situation if Reverse is not loaded-up. Bias to favor Forward, as above, and worry little or not at all that Reverse would be trying negative compensation ..if even one DID use it under load.

    I happen to be one of those who commonly threads, bores, or turns when in Reverse, so..

    Leaving S1, S2 out of the circuit altogether is cheapest. That's partly as one no longer has to care. SSD drives have broad enough shoulders to not need the assistance.

    PM has an older thread on the nuances and pragmatism of all of that, motor winding type relevant, DC drive type agnostic.

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    Is 320VAC into the 514c a hard target or a lower limit? In other words, if I feed it a bit more more can I tune the output down to compensate? Looks like I can but wanted to confirm, as it gives a few more options on transformer arrangement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Is 320VAC into the 514c a hard target or a lower limit? In other words, if I feed it a bit more more can I tune the output down to compensate? Looks like I can but wanted to confirm, as it gives a few more options on transformer arrangement.
    Upper bound, actually. Well. I run my "ordinary" @ 349, the test rig was higher -able to OUTPUT @ 370+ VDC. I have 2, 3, 4, or 5 transformers in an "array" on the TEST bench.

    There are contrary needs in want of compromise:

    - Too low the incoming AC Voltage on-tap, you cannot fully power the motor- most especially not under heavy load. 285 VAC is about as low as you want to go on the THREE HP motor. A 277 VAC transformer didn't cut it. I had to parallel/series others with it. The 5 HP would need no more IF yah had the Amperage at the transformer AND the 32- Amp 514C-32 SSD Drive. If not, then 300-320 is a better target, though not a "hard" target, even then. The SSD is for-damned-sure "adjustable"!



    - "On the other hand".. At higher AC input, a much shorter ON time for each pulse is needed to put a given amount of energy under the curve after integration. Now it is rougher pulsing - most especially under light load and lower RPM demanded.

    Part of why the motor benefits from the big fat choke/ripple-filter aiding the smoothing and adding to electromagnetic "inertia"?

    Welll... the choke sort of serves as a flywheel... or even a torsional vibration damper, as on a Dodge Cummins diesel's crankshaft.

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    Ok, to start I found an Acme T-1-53144-1 transformer, full isolation plated for converting 208 -> 120/240. It has primary taps for 192v in -> 240, so 240 in will give me 308, and with luck won’t need to add a buck/boost transformer for voltage. Only rated 5KVA so may not be the final config. Next will be a good choke, which may just end up as the primary of a buck/boost.

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    I'm using a T-5 I got from Russ here and am getting 310VAC on the secondary taps. I actually had to tune down the drive to hold the maximum output to 240VDC. 308VAC will be fine. IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark999 View Post
    I'm using a T-5 I got from Russ here and am getting 310VAC on the secondary taps. I actually had to tune down the drive to hold the maximum output to 240VDC. 308VAC will be fine. IMO
    That can happen. They were built when utility mains were still 220 VAC.

    Present-day, it depends on what one has, "out of the wall", locally.

    My incoming Service Entrance has been 245-246 for the past 29+ years, here off Virginia Electric Power ==> Dominion Virginia Power. Poor Californios have seen rather a lot of "ZERO" Volt utility-mains power, recent year or so, but that we cannot adjust for!

    10EE is best served, load regulation-wise, if there is 255-265 VDC "available" as the OEM had. It will only ask for - and get - the power set as max on the SSD drive if the drive's IR (or tacho) logic detects the need of it.

    OEM MG and tube drives were tuned "once". To a compromise. It was all they had.

    SSD Four-Quadrant drives are dynamically reviewing and adjusting all the time. That's THEIR "nature". Analog sensing and control logic. Continuous. Not clocked-sample and "step function" digital.

    Annnnd.. 10EE with DC motors don't actually work very hard, most real-world tasking, anyway!

    Their deep pockets of reserve torque were meant for superior stability more than heavy chip-ripping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    10EE is best served, load regulation-wise, if there is 255-265 VDC "available" as the OEM had. It will only ask for - and get - the power set as max on the SSD drive if the drive's IR (or tacho) logic detects the need of it.

    OEM MG and tube drives were tuned "once". To a compromise. It was all they had.

    ...

    Annnnd.. 10EE with DC motors don't actually work very hard, most real-world tasking, anyway!

    Their deep pockets of reserve torque were meant for superior stability more than heavy chip-ripping.
    I’m going to start with targetting 240VDC max to the motor. That’s what it is plated for. Of course, 310VAC is RMS, not peak voltage. Full wave rectify it and you get 155V rms or about 220V peak. A switcher (analog or digital) is going to hit something near peak, higher or lower depending on circuitry. So the numbers seem in the right ballpark. Voltage and amperage to be checked as I build ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    I’m going to start with targetting 240VDC max to the motor. That’s what it is plated for. Of course, 310VAC is RMS, not peak voltage. Full wave rectify it and you get 155V rms or about 220V peak. A switcher (analog or digital) is going to hit something near peak, higher or lower depending on circuitry. So the numbers seem in the right ballpark. Voltage and amperage to be checked as I build ...
    Don't forget to take the reading load-motor side of whatever you use for the ripple filter. [1]. There is generally at least a 6 VDC drop, peak reading. My 270 VDC is about 264 at the motor. And again, that's a max. Also not really much loss of energy, given the choke has smoothed-out the ripple.

    The more important number is KVA or net motor heating under load. The use of a motor NOT rated for continuous duty (note the "30 minutes" on the 3 HP large-frame data plate) might at first seem daft, BUT.. it was a hoist and elevator motor already old and long-proven before the first 10EE was built.

    Those go down as well as up. They wait for passengers to get in and out of the cab, or for riggers to attach and detach a load. They sit idle whilst no one comes to ride or the hoist's hook awaits a load to be positioned.

    Similar duty on a 10EE.

    The longest a 10EE can stay "in the cut" is only 20" of traverse commonly, 30" on the rare long-bed models. MOST work might not even be 10" of traverse - or even FIVE inches - whilst in the cut before one is cranking back for the next pass or pausing to mic the part or remove it and load the next.

    During those natural "breaks" the motor is running unloaded and cooling itself from the just-completed pass. REALLY rare to run any 10EE anywhere near "FULL" load, either. Not for very long, anyway.

    Similar effect, the availability of over-Voltage. It only sees any actual DEMAND so very seldom it is not a source of stress. The DC drive has set-points for max current. It even has a thermal input if you wish to put one on - or inside of - the motor to shut-down on overheat.

    DC motor, after all. They are often "all about variable", "Type T" msot of all.

    As with any nameplate, that's just a "snapshot" of the specific balance of Current, HP, Torque @ the specified Voltage, and Full Load Amps that will sustain the specific RPM @ full-kinetic load.

    So long as... the spikes from mechanical contactor operation (4 to 5 times the "working" DC Voltage) nor the heat do not damage the insulation, the motor run at some OTHER Voltage and FLA Current will have some OTHER HP and RPM. 4.3 HP I run my nominal 3 HP to at "max".

    Given the SSD "Four Quadrant" DC Drive uses no contactors, but instead switches its SCR's "incrementally" to ramp the drive up and down - or go from FWD to REV - two-second the default minimum, both cases?

    It generates NO spikes at all of that sort.

    Even so, an SSD has a rather massive MOV onboard, too, About $75 bucks worth of "massive MOV" compared to a few dollars only for lesser ones.

    End of the day, a 4Q drive places less stress on the motor even at boosted Voltages than the OEM rig did. So long as it has a ripple filter, anyway.

    Those Voltages in the 240 - 255 VDC range rather than 230 VDC? Documented in PM's old threads.

    They are measurements taken by OTHER owners of OEM drives - "MG" included.

    It was Monarch/Reliance who were "hot rodding" their "joint venture" 10EE collaboration before I was even born!

    I'm just following suit!

    Then pushing a tad further, given I DO have the 4Q Drives AND NO contactors, AND have a fat ripple filter, where they had "none of the above"... yet built an insanely durable Dee Cee motored 10EE, even so.

    The 'reserve" is there, and plenty of it.

    Then again.. I WOULD feel comfortable saying that. I have only TWO 10EE. And FOUR motors for them. 100% "spares", IOW!



    [1] Email me if you have trouble finding one. I have "spares", but NRi will sell you one with "Free Shipping". Unless I got the last of the ones they had..

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    Has anyone worked out a circuit to emulate the polarity switching of the armature vs. the series field for forward/reverse? Or has everyone gone with the “not worrying about it” approach and been happy with that? Obviously some serious DC contactors are required. My lathe is missing those. I figure it can be done with a handful of power mosfets, GTO thyristors, or igbt’s and probably some rectifier diodes to keep everything biased correctly for 4 quadrant behavior, but haven’t yet worked that out. Leaning toward leaving that for “down the road” but something I’ve thought a bit about as I compare the Parker solution to the original as-built monarch design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Has anyone worked out a circuit to emulate the polarity switching of the armature vs. the shunt field for forward/reverse? Or has everyone gone with the “not worrying about it” approach and been happy with that? Obviously some serious DC contactors are required. My lathe is missing those. I figure it can be done with a handful of power mosfets, GTO thyristors, or igbt’s and probably some rectifier diodes to keep everything biased correctly for 4 quadrant behavior, but haven’t yet worked that out. Leaning toward leaving that for “down the road” but something I’ve thought a bit about as I compare the Parker solution to the original as-built monarch design.
    you obtain fwd/rev using the speed setpoint pot for the 514.
    you can also use a TPDT relay to swap pins 14 & 16 of the 514C to reverse direction. @bll230 is using circuit to do just that with the ESLR lever. i was going to try it out, but haven't found the need and continue to use the pot on my DIY control box.

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    here is my 514C/507 control. the pot on top is for fwd/rev 4Q control 0 to ~1200 rpm. the pot on the bottom is for field weakening base speed to 3000 rpm. i'm using the ESLR lever micro-switches to engage run on both the 514C/507.

    mvimg_20200630_183732-copy.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by everettengr View Post
    you obtain fwd/rev using the speed setpoint pot for the 514.
    you can also use a TPDT relay to swap pins 14 & 16 of the 514C to reverse direction. @bll230 is using circuit to do just that with the ESLR lever. i was going to try it out, but haven't found the need and continue to use the pot on my DIY control box.
    Ack, I was picturing the series field and my fingers wrongly put shunt field in my post. I fixed that.

    I’ve already figured out I’m going with the relay swapping +10/0v/-10v for reversing and stopping the 514c in conjunction with the ELSR. On my factory schematic with the 5HP GE kinamatic, there is both a shunt field and series field. The shunt field is what gets weakened for RPM increase. The series field is in series with the armature as necessary to give the RPM stability but the armature flips polarity for Forward vs. Reverse via two 2-pole DC contactors. So the 507 drives the shunt field, and the 514c drives the armature and series field. But per factory the series field doesn’t change polarity on reverse, only the armature. I don’t see how this behavior can be mimicked without those contactors or other equivalent switching. I think thermite mentioned just ignoring this in an older post, i.e. reversing the series field with the armature. Seems that might make reverse less stable for actual cutting?

    Here’s my schematic:
    5ad9e604-579b-4b2d-9e68-199aa2cdc660.jpg
    3f2ffcb4-1d41-4b22-8928-bea2ce1cb68d.jpg
    Last edited by rabler; 06-30-2020 at 09:11 PM. Reason: uploaded better picture

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post
    Ack, I was picturing the series field and my fingers wrongly put shunt field in my post. I fixed that.

    I’ve already figured out I’m going with the relay swapping +10/0v/-10v for reversing and stopping the 514c in conjunction with the ELSR. On my factory schematic with the 5HP GE kinamatic, there is both a shunt field and series field. The shunt field is what gets weakened for RPM increase. The series field is in series with the armature as necessary to give the RPM stability but the armature flips polarity for Forward vs. Reverse via two 2-pole DC contactors. So the 507 drives the shunt field, and the 514c drives the armature and series field. But per factory the series field doesn’t change polarity on reverse, only the armature. I don’t see how this behavior can be mimicked without those contactors or other equivalent switching. I think thermite mentioned just ignoring this in an older post, i.e. reversing the series field with the armature. Seems that might make reverse less stable for actual cutting?
    FORWARD and REVERSE are controlled with the speed setpoint pot on the 514C.


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