Removing Carriage on Monarch 24N?

bloomautomatic · Jan 17, 2019

I need to take the carriage off our Monarch 24N. It looks like it bolts down to the apron on the underside.

My only other experience with removing a carriage is on a South Bend 10". This is a tad bit bigger. I'm guessing I need to support the apron when I break the bolts loose? Is there anything else I'm missing for fasteners? Any other advice is appreciated.

I have this manual for it, but it doesnt give a great assembly view.
http://manuals.chudov.com/Monarch/Monarch-SS-BB-C-CK-CU-CY-EE-K-M-N-NN-W-Lathes.pdf

Thanks

johnoder · Jan 17, 2019

The larger (M, N, NN) Monarchs may have tie downs IN BETWEEN ways - similar to those on rear.

My 24" Lodge & Shipley sure does

Apron may be as much as 350-400 Lbs- don't let it just hang there on lead screw and feed rod

bloomautomatic · Jan 18, 2019

It does have the die downs between the ways, I got that.

In the front,there are 2 tie downs (clamps) behind the apron that I'm having trouble getting to. May need to slide the carriage or apron out of the way to access.

bloomautomatic · Jan 21, 2019

I now have a taper pin stuck in the apron. It has a square head on it and refuses to budge. There is one on each side of the apron. Lefty came out with a little twist. Righty isn't moving and started to round off the head.

It looks like I need to get this pin out so I can move the carriage or the apron over to access the bolts on the inner clamp pieces. I can't see how to get to those bolts while the apron is there.

So, taper pin, stuck in a blind hole where it can't be knocked out. My next thoughts are weld something to the head of it and knock it out. If it still won't go, then last resort is to see if I can get enough space between the apron and carriage to slide a hacksaw blade in there and cut it off flush. After the carriage is slid over I can knock it out and replace with new.

Any other ideas?

rke[pler · Jan 21, 2019

I think I'd weld something to the bottom of that pin and use a slide hammer to pull it. I made a little slide hammer using a vise grip that works nicely to pull things like this.

Cole2534 · Jan 22, 2019

bloomautomatic said:
Any other ideas?

View attachment 247491
View attachment 247492

Grip it with a tap wrench? May prevent the rounding issue.

bloomautomatic · Jan 22, 2019

Cole2534 said:
Grip it with a tap wrench? May prevent the rounding issue.

Good idea, but not enough space behind it. I can only get the open end wrench on from one side.

Cole2534 · Jan 22, 2019

bloomautomatic said:
Good idea, but not enough space behind it. I can only get the open end wrench on from one side.

12pt socket?

jlkunka · Jan 23, 2019

Try an hydraulic push...

Since you have one out, determine the location of the bottom of the hole. Maybe you can drill an intersecting crosshole to the blind bottom (can be small, like 1/8"), drill out & tap 1/4-28 for a grease fitting and push it out with hydraulic pressure.

bloomautomatic · Jan 23, 2019

Thought about drilling from the top down, but it's about 4" from the top of the carriage down to the pin. Not impossible, but fairly deep. It's loose in the carriage part, but stuck in the apron, so if I pushed grease from the blind end, it would seep out through between the apron and carriage.

If I drilled it from the side it might do something.

I'm going to try the 12pt socket if it will fit around it. Next step will probably be to weld something to the end.

Been busy with other machinery breakdowns so haven't got back to this yet.

bloomautomatic · Jan 24, 2019

Got the taper pin out. We welded a head to it and tried knocking it out, wouldn't budge. Welded a 12" piece of bar to it and got it to turn and it came loose. All the weld heat and PB blaster may have helped too. Either way, it seems like turning it worked better than a straight pull. (first pic)

The carriage still is not loose from the apron. I have 2 more clamps on the underside of the carriage that I can't reach with the apron in place. I thought if I got the taper pins out, I could slide the carriage over and remove it. That is not the case. See pics 2&3 for the bolts I can't get to.

Any suggestions on how to get to the inner clamps?

BrianB · Jan 24, 2019

Sure looks like you should be able to get a ratchet on those bolts to me. Not a lot of room to do the ratcheting but should be enough for a fine toothed one to do the job.

labeeman · Jan 24, 2019

Looks like the half nuts need to come off with the lead screw.

bloomautomatic · Jan 25, 2019

BrianB said:
Sure looks like you should be able to get a ratchet on those bolts to me. Not a lot of room to do the ratcheting but should be enough for a fine toothed one to do the job.

If there was enough room, I would have done that already. In picture 3, the perspective is hard to see, but the bolt heads are less than 1/2" from the casting underneath of it. Not enough space to get a ratchet on it, and even with a wrench there's not enough room for the bolt to come out.

I followed my own advice and called the manufacturer. The guy who answered the phone was very familiar with removing the carriage. The apron has to come off first, which means removing the shafts. Slide them out, support the apron and remove it, and then you have access to the inner clamps. He confirmed there's no other way to get to those bolts. The apron has a gear for the power cross feed that sticks up about 3" into the carriage, so it has to drop down to clear the carriage.

He also suggested to try moving the carriage after the shafts are off as that can be a cause of drag in older machines.

bloomautomatic · Jan 29, 2019

I have the apron and carriage off.

Removed the feed rod and lead screw. Had to get the gears off the left side of them and they slid out the right. I dropped the control rod down low enough to clear the apron.

I ran a 2" round bar through the lead screw holes and supported that with a crane. There are 2 flathead screws in the top of the carriage, one of them is under the cross slide. Also disconnected the oiler line between the apron and carriage. Removed the bolts and let the crane down and the apron dropped away from the carriage. Set it off to the side.

This gave access to the last clamps. Removed those, put a sling around the carriage and lifted it up. Used a chain pull going back to the taper attachment to keep it all level.

It looks like the carriage has been riding on the front flat way (#2 in the pics). The underside of the carriage is rather rough and so is the flat way on the bed. The front V-way is fairly smooth. All the surfaces on the v-way look like they have a lip of about 1/32" where it's worn down.

According to Monarch, this is all steel on steel, with no replacement parts. So, what options do I have other than clean it, grease it and put it back together?

Cole2534 · Jan 29, 2019

Can you relieve the carriage .050" or so? My 12ck has similar wear and that's the best I've come up with.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

sfriedberg · Jan 30, 2019

It's not impossible to scrape steel, but that probably wasn't the swamp you set out to drain.

When you get toward the end of this process, replace the way wipers. If they had been maintained, most of that damage would have been prevented.

Demon69 · Jan 30, 2019

bloomautomatic said:
I have the apron and carriage off.

Removed the feed rod and lead screw. Had to get the gears off the left side of them and they slid out the right. I dropped the control rod down low enough to clear the apron.

I ran a 2" round bar through the lead screw holes and supported that with a crane. There are 2 flathead screws in the top of the carriage, one of them is under the cross slide. Also disconnected the oiler line between the apron and carriage. Removed the bolts and let the crane down and the apron dropped away from the carriage. Set it off to the side.

This gave access to the last clamps. Removed those, put a sling around the carriage and lifted it up. Used a chain pull going back to the taper attachment to keep it all level.

It looks like the carriage has been riding on the front flat way (#2 in the pics). The underside of the carriage is rather rough and so is the flat way on the bed. The front V-way is fairly smooth. All the surfaces on the v-way look like they have a lip of about 1/32" where it's worn down.

According to Monarch, this is all steel on steel, with no replacement parts. So, what options do I have other than clean it, grease it and put it back together?

View attachment 248270
View attachment 248271
View attachment 248272
View attachment 248273

At a glance looks like your saddles worn in the normal mode and dropped down to start hitting surface 2, this puts the carriage out of alignment with the shafts and contributes to the drag the tech mentioned.
You can use a way liner (Turcite/Rulon etc, ive no direct experience with it), mill out surfaces 1 and 4 to make room for the liner and glue them in place. You have to consider the location of the saddle in relation to the shafts. If you temporarily refit the saddle and those hold down clamps, you could use a feeler gauge between them and the bed to give you and idea of how far its dropped, provided noones messed with the hold downs before. The cross slide has to be perp to the bed.
Where is this .030" wear ridge btw? In the bed or the saddle? The bed im guessing will be hardened, having it sent out to for grinding is the norm, not cheap. In reality .030" of wear in the bed of a machine that size shouldnt be too much of a problem for most, you can use a straight edge and feeler gauges to give you an idea of wear in each side of that Vee. Equal wear is the best you can hope for.
Theres gonna be wear in the cross slide and compound etc, as well as the tailstock, depends on what you need from the machine as to how far you wanna go.

Keith Rucker has some videos on the restoration on his Monarch. In Part 15 hes working the turcite on the saddle. Havent watched them in detail but parts 12 - 16 should cover most of what youll need. No 5 minute job but not so bad if you keep step by step simple.

bloomautomatic · Jan 30, 2019

Cole2534 said:
Can you relieve the carriage .050" or so?

Not really. Carriage is too big to fit on my mill.

bloomautomatic · Jan 30, 2019

Demon73 said:
At a glance looks like your saddles worn in the normal mode and dropped down to start hitting surface 2, this puts the carriage out of alignment with the shafts and contributes to the drag the tech mentioned.
You can use a way liner (Turcite/Rulon etc, ive no direct experience with it), mill out surfaces 1 and 4 to make room for the liner and glue them in place. You have to consider the location of the saddle in relation to the shafts. If you temporarily refit the saddle and those hold down clamps, you could use a feeler gauge between them and the bed to give you and idea of how far its dropped, provided noones messed with the hold downs before. The cross slide has to be perp to the bed.
Where is this .030" wear ridge btw? In the bed or the saddle? The bed im guessing will be hardened, having it sent out to for grinding is the norm, not cheap. In reality .030" of wear in the bed of a machine that size shouldnt be too much of a problem for most, you can use a straight edge and feeler gauges to give you an idea of wear in each side of that Vee. Equal wear is the best you can hope for.
Theres gonna be wear in the cross slide and compound etc, as well as the tailstock, depends on what you need from the machine as to how far you wanna go.

The wear ridge is in the saddle. It's too big for my milling machine here.

Sending out the bed to have it re-ground wouldn't be worth it. At that point, I'd look at buying another machine.

This lathe is used in our maintenance shop for repairs of old equipment and fab'ing parts for welding. I need to get it in good usable condition.

That video series looks good. I'll take a look at the rest of them.

Thanks for your help on this.

Removing Carriage on Monarch 24N?

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