Removing Tumbler Lever

I am in the general process of partial disassembly of my 10EE for cleanup and painting. Like others before me, I didn't plan on such a complex disassembly, but it got away from me especially after looking at the superb work of others.

I have had (with the exception of one) no problems removing taper pins and the lathe is generally disassmbled into its assemblies. The the taper pin is out on the tumbler lever (I myself call this the 'feed engagement' lever). So it would seem the lever should slide-off to the right but it won't budge and I have applied what I consider the maximum advisable force on it. I did this by engaging the shaft end with what amounts to a gear-puller to assist in yanking. I have also tried heating. Am I missing something?

Back to my single disobedient taper pin. The 'back gear' lever has a pin which has been man-handled in the past and the small end is non-existent (it had been smashed flush with the OD of the lever). It is now literally is not visible. I removed paint and then tried polishing the area to see if I could highlight the location of the small end of the pin but this actually made it worse. Invisible.

Does anyone have an ingenious technique, besides destructive disassembly. I saw Cal's trick with the ball bearing, which I would be happy to try but I can't locate the position.

Thanks

Is the a round- or square-dial 10EE?

I'm not sure what levers you're talking about. Some photos would be helpful.

Cal

If you can still see the large end of the taper pin, try driving it in further. Just a few thou will make the small end visible. Also, if you have some etching acid, brush it on, that should also make the small end visible.

Pictures

Cal Haines said:

Is the a round- or square-dial 10EE?

I'm not sure what levers you're talking about. Some photos would be helpful.

Cal

Click to expand...

Lathe is Square Dial 1969

Picture of the lever with the small end of the taper pin invisible. In the lower right of the lever you can just see the large end of the taper pin, which is visible. I did tap on the large end and I was able to get a very faint visibility of the small end, but using a 3/32 punch I was unable to get it to budge in the other direction. It gets dicy because as soon as I punch it as there are then witness marks (because the small end is flush) which make it hard to re-find the true position. After the comment about Acid - I remember I have dye penatrant at my hangar so I am going to go over there to pick it up and use it to provide a good image of the pin location. Then I am going to carefully (with a makeshift jig) put a small locating center in the small end of the pin, and then use your ball bearing trick to pressure it out. I plan on using a 'c' clamp to do it. My 'c' clamps have the shaft end recessed (won't interfere with the large end of the pin) and the stationary end flat (to contact the bearing). So I think this should work.


Picture of my other bad boy, the "tumbler" lever. The pin is out, - but can't budge the lever off. I can't find any other means of attachment but it sure is stuck.

SN3308 said:

Lathe is Square Dial 1969

Picture of the lever with the small end of the taper pin invisible. In the lower right of the lever you can just see the large end of the taper pin, which is visible. I did tap on the large end and I was able to get a very faint visibility of the small end, but using a 3/32 punch I was unable to get it to budge in the other direction. It gets dicy because as soon as I punch it as there are then witness marks (because the small end is flush) which make it hard to re-find the true position. After the comment about Acid - I remember I have dye penatrant at my hangar so I am going to go over there to pick it up and use it to provide a good image of the pin location. Then I am going to carefully (with a makeshift jig) put a small locating center in the small end of the pin, and then use your ball bearing trick to pressure it out. I plan on using a 'c' clamp to do it. My 'c' clamps have the shaft end recessed (won't interfere with the large end of the pin) and the stationary end flat (to contact the bearing). So I think this should work.
View attachment 307879

Picture of my other bad boy, the "tumbler" lever. The pin is out, - but can't budge the lever off. I can't find any other means of attachment but it sure is stuck.
View attachment 307878

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You could apply some propane heat to the casting. Be careful of the sight glass and the emblems.
Keeping the heat on the handle and not the shaft will expand the casting.
Scrape paint so you dont breathe burning paint fumes.
You dont need to get it red hot.
That's a thick casting so give it a couple minute's

You may want to shield that shaft below it but it shouldn't really hurt anything.

Geeze, I thought mine had bad paint, but yours might be the new GOLD standard. Btw, when I removed all of the drive riveted plaques, I tapped all those holes and used SS button head socket screws, to never again deal with drive rivets.

daryl bane said:

Geeze, I thought mine had bad paint, but yours might be the new GOLD standard. Btw, when I removed all of the drive riveted plaques, I tapped all those holes and used SS button head socket screws, to never again deal with drive rivets.

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Those SS screws look good and like they were meant to be there. And make removal easy. Painting without removing the emblems is wasted effort.

I give up

mllud22 said:

Those SS screws look good and like they were meant to be there. And make removal easy. Painting without removing the emblems is wasted effort.

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Thanks for suggestions and the award on worst paint. The paint was bad to begin with, but what you are looking at now is half-removed paint. I stopped cleaning when I couldn't get this pin out.

I have tried everything. I previously had in fact heated the handle (with a Master heat gun) until it was too hot to touch - although I'll try the torch as a last resort. I took Zyglo and definitely identified the pin location but it is of no use, it still won't budge. I tried Cal's method with a ball, using a c-clamp as the forcer. There was enough force to put a dent in the end of the pin, but did it move? Of course not.

So the existential question I am facing is how many days of work is it worth spending on a 5-minute job? I may take a die grinder and cut the handle in two. I'm getting there. It may be easier to find a new handle rather than what I am doing now.

SN3308 said:

Thanks for suggestions and the award on worst paint. The paint was bad to begin with, but what you are looking at now is half-removed paint. I stopped cleaning when I couldn't get this pin out.

I have tried everything. I previously had in fact heated the handle (with a Master heat gun) until it was too hot to touch - although I'll try the torch as a last resort. I took Zyglo and definitely identified the pin location but it is of no use, it still won't budge. I tried Cal's method with a ball, using a c-clamp as the forcer. There was enough force to put a dent in the end of the pin, but did it move? Of course not.

So the existential question I am facing is how many days of work is it worth spending on a 5-minute job? I may take a die grinder and cut the handle in two. I'm getting there. It may be easier to find a new handle rather than what I am doing now.

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With that other handle so close so probably dont have room for a bearing splitter to get behind it. You would probably need to remove the emblems,
A wood chisel is flat on one side. Can you get in behind it and wedge it out. Easy on the gearbox casting.


Use half of a bearing splitter to wedge in behind the handle
https://www.amazon.com/Shankly-Bear...moval+tool&qid=1608338387&sr=8-39&tag=mh0b-20

SN3308 said:

Thanks for suggestions and the award on worst paint. The paint was bad to begin with, but what you are looking at now is half-removed paint. I stopped cleaning when I couldn't get this pin out.

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Ah, that explains it. Mine had at least 5 to 8 coats of different shades of "porch paint", some Latex. Looks like yours is similar. I took all the mechanically stripped castings down to a car/industrial restoration stripper place, and they put them in big boiling vats. Came out like fresh castings. I don't know if there are any places like that anymore.

My experience is that Monarch levers have a very snug fit, likely honed, and that it is very common for pinned shafts/levers to also have a set screw. Look on the tumbler lever for a hex set screw, perhaps painted over, that is 90 degrees around the radius from the taper pin end.

daryl bane said:

Ah, that explains it. Mine had at least 5 to 8 coats of different shades of "porch paint", some Latex. Looks like yours is similar. I took all the mechanically stripped castings down to a car/industrial restoration stripper place, and they put them in big boiling vats. Came out like fresh castings. I don't know if there are any places like that anymore.

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I believe that the EPA made the cost of disposing of those chemicals so expensive that they couldn't make any money. Radiator shops and chroming operations also took a hit.
Although I did see a program on PBS that a young man running a plating operation figured out a way to reuse his acids. I was nodding off or I would know more. Old age thing


Sn3308
Colt 45 has it , There is also a very small set screw there. I just went out too the shop and looked. My lathe only has one repaint.
There is a set screw at 45 deg. from the pin.

SN3308 said:

...
Picture of the lever with the small end of the taper pin invisible. In the lower right of the lever you can just see the large end of the taper pin, which is visible. ...
View attachment 307879
...

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According on the common wisdom, the end of the pin at about 3 O'clock is mostly likely the large end of the pin, as you suggest. This is based on the assumption that the pins are drilled and reamed after the machine (or at least the gearbox) is assembled. So that whatever side is the easiest to access is probably the large end. However, if the handle were fitted while the gearbox was off the machine, it might have been more convenient to go in from the other side. If the small end was peened over by someone that tried to take it out before, it can look bigger than the large end. Before you cut the handle apart, you might want to try grinding the handle down a little on each side, to get a fresh end of the pin to deal with. I don't know about anyone else, but trying to measure the difference in diameter between the two ends is pretty tough. So you may have been working on a bad assumption about what end is the big end (the old Lilliputian Problem once again!).

I wound up having to drill out one of my taper pins. Here's a link to the post that describes the single-use drill jig that I made to do the job:It worked much better than I had dared to hope. I was able to drill all the way through the pin. I had expected the drill to wander off into the softer metal of the knob and tear it up.

Regarding the other handle: If the hidden setscrew isn't the problem, you might try reaming the hole. It's possible that during a subsequent assembly the handle and shaft weren't properly lined up and the process of driving the pin in raised a burr on the shaft that's keeping the handle from coming off. I always lightly ream the handle and hole after assembly to assure that everything is perfectly lined up.

Cal

Progress

Cal Haines said:

According on the common wisdom, the end of the pin at about 3 O'clock is mostly likely the large end of the pin, as you suggest. This is based on the assumption that the pins are drilled and reamed after the machine (or at least the gearbox) is assembled. So that whatever side is the easiest to access is probably the large end. However, if the handle were fitted while the gearbox was off the machine, it might have been more convenient to go in from the other side. If the small end was peened over by someone that tried to take it out before, it can look bigger than the large end. Before you cut the handle apart, you might want to try grinding the handle down a little on each side, to get a fresh end of the pin to deal with. I don't know about anyone else, but trying to measure the difference in diameter between the two ends is pretty tough. So you may have been working on a bad assumption about what end is the big end (the old Lilliputian Problem once again!).

I wound up having to drill out one of my taper pins. Here's a link to the post that describes the single-use drill jig that I made to do the job:

round dial QC gearbox handle removal
​

It worked much better than I had dared to hope. I was able to drill all the way through the pin. I had expected the drill to wander off into the softer metal of the knob and tear it up.

Regarding the other handle: If the hidden setscrew isn't the problem, you might try reaming the hole. It's possible that during a subsequent assembly the handle and shaft weren't properly lined up and the process of driving the pin in raised a burr on the shaft that's keeping the handle from coming off. I always lightly ream the handle and hole after assembly to assure that everything is perfectly lined up.

Cal

Click to expand...

Cal,
Thank you for your detailed answer. I now have all the handles off. I am glad I slept on it as I was going into that bad place where Im sure I would have manhandled it worse.
I waited for my son to come over. We lightly ground down the left side as you suggested (again) and with his super eyesight he could see the faint outline of the pin. He took on the job of precisely positioning and holding the punch. I swung the 5 lb hammer. We took a single blow and then inspected, and repeated. We did this a few times with absolutely nothing. He then asked me to switch to a 1/8" punch instead of 3/32, and hit it harder - and voila it exited in a single blow. I inspected the pin and I would say there was faint corrsion - or rust - near the large end of the pin.
This lucky conclusion was only possible because he got the tool precisely in exactly the right spot, probably within .005. The original sin, I think, was not hitting it hard enough so that the pin flattened instead of exiting.
The large end, BTW, is on the right, so this work was all taking place on the left side.
Then on to the tumbler handle. The setscrew was in there but was loose, but to be on the safe side we completely removed it. The handle still would not budge, so using an aluminum rod as an extender we hit it on its left side (as close to the tumbler shaft was we could get) using the same 5lb sledge, and it did start to move. We did the rest by conventional means of wedging a screwdriver between the machine body and the lever and rotating it as a cam. The lever was pretty tight.
Whew.
I guess these parts haven't come off in 50 years and thats the explanation.
The only disassembly left is to remove the motor, the rest is done, and I can start the paint prep process. I think this will take a while as I am doing more than originally contemplated.
The paint is Sherwin Williams Marine paint (similar to JetGlo).

BTW referring to my earlier post, I would comment that the Dye Penetrant was useful but only because I had some. Not worth spending money on it - could have done without it.