Restoration of Monarch 10EE Serial#26080 Delivered on 11/2/1944 to Buick - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    I followed Cal’s checklist and I can confirm my machine is wired for 220V three phase, so, as soon as my three phase power is live, I will see if it runs as is.

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    Make sure that you verify that the MG is turning the correct direction when you first fire it up.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Make sure that you verify that the MG is turning the correct direction when you first fire it up.
    Cal
    I spent a little time looking over the wiring panels today as I expect the parts to upgrade and install my phase perfect converter will be here on Tuesday.

    I also read some prior threads dealing with the aforementioned.

    Attached are some images of my main panel. I noticed three things that probably need attention, but I'm not sure I should do anything until I try to power it up for the first time. All agreed?

    1. The three resistors look like they need replacing (first 2 images), the 2kOhm resistor is missing its coating and the front lead looks sketchy. The other two have broken caps and what appears to be some leakage. The top two look original.

    2. The fuse (I'm assuming the brass ended tube in the brass clips is a fuse; 3rd image) looks shot as the class is cloudy and it looks like leakage of some kind in the glass. If it is a fuse, size anyone? I cant find any legible markings on it, nor can I find it on the wiring diagram.

    3. The wiring harness at the bottom appears original as all the wires but one have their original metal id tags on them. (Last image) My thought was to upgrade all the wiring on this machine to new high grade wire, after all if this is original wiring, it is 80 years old.

    monarch_10ee_image_wiringpanelresistors.jpgmonarch_10ee_image_wiringpanelresistors2.jpgmonarch_10ee_image_wiringpanelfuse.jpgmonarch_10ee_image_wiringpaneloriginalwireswithmetaltags.jpg

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    I spent a little time looking over the wiring panels today as I expect the parts to upgrade and install my phase perfect converter will be here on Tuesday.

    I also read some prior threads dealing with the aforementioned.

    Attached are some images of my main panel. I noticed three things that probably need attention, but I'm not sure I should do anything until I try to power it up for the first time. All agreed?

    1. The three resistors look like they need replacing (first 2 images), the 2kOhm resistor is missing its coating and the front lead looks sketchy. The other two have broken caps and what appears to be some leakage. The top two look original.

    2. The fuse (I'm assuming the brass ended tube in the brass clips is a fuse; 3rd image) looks shot as the class is cloudy and it looks like leakage of some kind in the glass. If it is a fuse, size anyone? I cant find any legible markings on it, nor can I find it on the wiring diagram.

    3. The wiring harness at the bottom appears original as all the wires but one have their original metal id tags on them. (Last image) My thought was to upgrade all the wiring on this machine to new high grade wire, after all if this is original wiring, it is 80 years old.

    monarch_10ee_image_wiringpanelresistors.jpgmonarch_10ee_image_wiringpanelresistors2.jpgmonarch_10ee_image_wiringpanelfuse.jpgmonarch_10ee_image_wiringpaneloriginalwireswithmetaltags.jpg
    Happens I gutted ALL the wiring on my first 10EE, so got to see and feel it as I Sawzalled the conduits and pulled it out of the cut-up sections.

    Essentially all of it blue.
    Essentially all insulation jacketing "as-new" for integrity and resilience.

    Starter box indicates that was a "Thomas and Betts" era machine, and T&B were queer for a certain blue. ISTR wartime re-prioritizations sent Monarch over to Cutler-Hammer, later?

    Built 1942. Nothing really wrong with it. Not even where the conduit had hired-on for the secondary job of tramp oil drain.

    Now. BACK side of the "DC panel"? Under the braking resistors?

    Different story.

    The Cambric (woven linen) sleeves had gone hardened with dirt and oil varnish.

    One wire had fatigued, broken, and right where a right-angle bend sent it though a hole to a component on the other side. Stiff Cambric had kept it in contact. MOST of the time. Prior owner's INTERMITTENT mystery resolved.

    You could be ahead to leave the OEM wire TF alone, only double check at all of the terminations. Pulling all-new wire is sort of an "art form" to avoid getting it wrong. Slow and tedious when done right. High-risk and lots of nuisance de-bug when not.

    AND..focus higher-priority time on a thorough inspection of ALL of that DC panel. Both sides.

  5. #45
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    I'll 'second' Thermite's recommendation: 'Leave it alone'. This wiring is not in an automobile, bouncing down rough roads, being flexed, stressed or otherwise traumatized. It's actually in very good condition. Very few if any cracks, splits, frayed areas.
    Shiny plastic wires with bright new colors is not necessarily any better than the in-place and proven-functional existing wiring.

    The slight bit of corrosion on the end of the resistor is likely from moisture from either someone 'washing' or rinsing off solvents, or maybe the resistors are in an area that didn't get the oily mist from all the machinery flinging fine droplets of oils into the air..
    Or that resistor regularly got hot enough to boil off any protective oil, leaving the bare copper to be exposed to corrosion.

    Were it my machine, I'd gently wipe off the fuzzy-blue-green corrosion, but leave a layer in place. Then find some sort of protectant to brush on the exposed copper. I'm sure there are some favorite oils or coatings that PM members will recommend. But to replace it because over 80+ years it has a slight bit of corrosion on it? Not me.. And copper, when it corrodes is self-limiting or self sealing. The corrosion on copper blocks additional oxidation, unlike ferrous metal which will keep corroding until perforated or disintegrating. Copper-clad roofs on buildings for example, last for centuries..

    This machine appears to be in wonderful, well preserved condition, I'd continue to preserve it, and that includes using it for what it was intended: fine, precision turning. The 'exercising' of the machine is part of preserving it..

    JMHO, many others may disagree.
    DualValve

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    Quote Originally Posted by DualValve View Post

    This machine appears to be in wonderful, well preserved condition, I'd continue to preserve it, and that includes using it for what it was intended: fine, precision turning. The 'exercising' of the machine is part of preserving it..

    JMHO, many others may disagree.
    DualValve
    I totally agree, just looking for more expert opinions.

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    If I sent you a photo of my resistors, associated wiring and general appearance of the inside of either of my round-dial machines, you'd take one look at the images and go give YOUR machine a big hug... :-)

    My machines did not receive as nice of a working career and life as your's had.. and it really shows..
    I'm a bit envious !

    DualValve

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    Quote Originally Posted by DualValve View Post
    ...take one look at the images and go give YOUR machine a big hug... :-)
    .. or give it a touch of the Sawzall, pair of SSD DC Drives (Armature and Field) .... and about sixty or seventy fewer wires and terminations?


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    My three phase converter is getting installed today. Before I attempt to power up the machine and start it, is there anything I should know about the dial and gear settings? Since I have never operated this lathe, I want to ensure they are correct before the first start up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    My three phase converter is getting installed today. Before I attempt to power up the machine and start it, is there anything I should know about the dial and gear settings? Since I have never operated this lathe, I want to ensure they are correct before the first start up.
    As with any OTHER first-go, "strange" machine.. EVERYTHING that can be in neutral, dis-engaged, etc. SHOULD BE.

    Confirm all that by hand-pulling it over.

    And if nothing else has even a single a drop of lube?

    Make VERY sure those precious spindle bearings DO HAVE, their due and proper rations!

  11. #51
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    A checklist for a 'first-start' .

    Make sure that everything that will be rotating has proper lubrication.
    Make sure that everything that will be rotating is properly tight, or removed [Like the Chuck on the spindle: tight or removed]
    Make sure that the correct electrical power is hooked up, and has proper fuses or circuit breakers inline.

    Mentally make sure all the above is accomplished.
    Then push the start button.
    Look at the direction the MG is turning, usually clockwise when looking at the belt on the generator to the exciter, there is an
    arrow cast into the ends of the units..
    If the direction of rotation is wrong, swap any two wires from your power source to the lathe main contactor.

    Turn the speed control knob fully counter clockwise, then rotate about 1/4 turn clockwise, [should be a few hundred rpm].
    Then you should be able to move the lever on the drum switch and the spindle will turn.

    DualValve

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom;
    Originally Posted by dinotom
    My three phase converter is getting installed today. Before I attempt to power up the machine and start it, is there anything I should know about the dial and gear settings? Since I have never operated this lathe, I want to ensure they are correct before the first start up.
    Well, these are amazingly well built machines. All original motor parts in this unit, and it powered right up. Who knows how long it really sat unused; but the seller had it in storage for two years and I have had it since April 2019.

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    Congratulations !!
    A fine piece of machinery saved and resurrected !

    Now: to reinforce some comments made earlier: make SURE you have the correct lubricant in the three headstock compartments. The sight-glasses are often cloudy, or stained. They actually come out fairly easily, and I found that a Q-Tip with a mild solvent will remove the staining. Or new ones can be made or found.
    With the sight glass removed, use a wire and a long wood-shaft Q-tip to drag any junk, gunk, debris off the floor of the oil reservoir to the window for removal. Rinsing with Kerosene is an acceptable method.. DO NOT use an air blow-gun,, it will force the gunk/dirt/debris into the oh-so-precieous spindle bearings and 'force-feed' the bearing destructive particles and abrasives.
    Just swab, and rinse a few times.. then use the correct Mobil DTE LIGHT 'Circulating Oil' to refill the reservoir.. Do NOT use Mobil DTE 'hydraulic oil'.. a very different animal, and unfortunately often confused with the correct 'Circulating Oil'

    And of course read several of the apron oil pump/way-oil refurbishing threads and do the same for your lathe.. once done, you and it are good for many decades of precision turning.

    DualValve

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    Quote Originally Posted by DualValve View Post
    Congratulations !!
    A fine piece of machinery saved and resurrected !
    DualValve
    Thanks. Now that I know its working, I need to remove the motors and seriously clean the inards of this unit as there is a lot of grease, sludge, chips etc. I probably will not take the headstock apart as it appears in very good condition but I will clean it as best I can. Then I will add all the fresh oils after

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    Default Gear and directional knobs, levers

    So the machine fires up and the motor and exciter sound like they are in very good condition. Trying to determine if the gears in the headstock are functioning correctly. But before I did so, I was trying all the knobs and levers on the headstock with machine NOT running.

    In the images below, the directional selector only goes to the Right and Neutral, I cannot get it to go to the Left setting. Is this normal? I don't think so.

    Additionally, in the last photo, this knob, when pulled out will only go one detent to the right? is this normal?

    monarch_10ee_image_directionknob.jpg

    monarch_10ee_image_directionknobneutral.jpg

    monarch_10ee_image_threaddirection.jpg

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    The lever on the top of the 'threading selector box' is mechanically AND electrically tied into the lathe.

    The engagement 'dog' on the sliding gear that the round knob moves left and right has only ONE slot or position where it will engage the matching slot for the dog to engage the mating gear.

    So: pull and turn the round knob to the left while turning the spindle/chuck by hand, you will find a spot where the knob will turn the remaining distance. If you can't find that spot, just remove the top cover on the headstock and the drain pan/screen, then look inside as you turn the left-right threading knob. you can see the sliding selector and can see the dog and recess match up, then add some additional torque or wiggle or two and the sliding gear will slide in.

    THEN the small lever on top will move to the 'left' position and make the electrical connection to run the spindle motor in reverse direction..

    DualValve

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    So the machine fires up and the motor and exciter sound like they are in very good condition. Trying to determine if the gears in the headstock are functioning correctly. But before I did so, I was trying all the knobs and levers on the headstock with machine NOT running.

    In the images below, the directional selector only goes to the Right and Neutral, I cannot get it to go to the Left setting. Is this normal? I don't think so.

    Additionally, in the last photo, this knob, when pulled out will only go one detent to the right? is this normal?

    monarch_10ee_image_directionknob.jpg

    monarch_10ee_image_directionknobneutral.jpg

    monarch_10ee_image_threaddirection.jpg
    There is an additional sliding control rod (with the knurled end) shown in the third photo, on the face of the box with the R N L switch. Pull it out or push it in. It has been ages since I had one of these rube goldberg devices apart, but they have interlocks built in to them to prevent certain actions. My suggestion is to take it apart and study it and see how it all works.

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    Dumb question I'm sure, but since I've never operated lathe before and I have the saddle and apron removed, can I still engage the spindle from the headstock knobs/levers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    Dumb question I'm sure, but since I've never operated lathe before and I have the saddle and apron removed, can I still engage the spindle from the headstock knobs/levers?
    Surely can do. Only thing it needs is motor, reduction gearbox, at least one Vee belt.

    And PROPER SPINDLE LUBE, of course!

    All else is "optional", so to speak.

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    Ok. I've got the control unit running, it fires right up, but I cannot get the spindle to run. I'm 90% certain I have all the knobs and levers in the correct positions. Please note that:

    A. I have the apron and saddle off the machine.
    B. My 10EE does NOT have the drum switch with handle, it has a blank round plate over where that should be. (Nov 1944 vintage round dial)

    So my first thought is the DC motor is not getting any power. I have looked through the schematics and some other articles looking to find where I can test whether DC power leaving the generator and being fed to the motor.

    In the panel behind the front access door it appears to me, from my limited electrical knowledge, that either GA1-2 or GS1-2 are supplying the DC feed? (On another topic, do GA and GS acronyms stand for Generator Armature and Generator Shunt?)

    On probably a totally different tangent;
    There is a knob to the right of my reset button in the back of the machine. It has no labels. What is the function of that knob and does it have anything to do with the DC motor or spindle?

    Update:
    I put the meter on GA-1 and GA-2 and am getting a 15V DC reading. So now where are those leads going so I can see if the power is getting to the terminals for the motor?
    Last edited by dinotom; 02-12-2020 at 07:23 AM. Reason: Update post


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