Restoration of Monarch 10EE Serial#26080 Delivered on 11/2/1944 to Buick - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    Ok. I've got the control unit running, it fires right up, but I cannot get the spindle to run. I'm 90% certain I have all the knobs and levers in the correct positions. Please note that:

    A. I have the apron and saddle off the machine.
    B. My 10EE does NOT have the drum switch with handle, it has a blank round plate over where that should be. (Nov 1944 vintage round dial)

    So my first thought is the DC motor is not getting any power. I have looked through the schematics and some other articles looking to find where I can test whether DC power leaving the generator and being fed to the motor.

    In the panel behind the front access door it appears to me, from my limited electrical knowledge, that either GA1-2 or GS1-2 are supplying the DC feed? (On another topic, do GA and GS acronyms stand for Generator Armature and Generator Shunt?)

    On probably a totally different tangent;
    There is a knob to the right of my reset button in the back of the machine. It has no labels. What is the function of that knob and does it have anything to do with the DC motor or spindle?

    Update:
    I put the meter on GA-1 and GA-2 and am getting a 15V DC reading. So now where are those leads going so I can see if the power is getting to the terminals for the motor?
    It's "electricity", Pilgrim. Not tapwater. "90%" is only good for analog - volume controls and such on boom-boxes and ear-buds.

    Schematic SHOWS you were it all goes. Or should go.

    Believe it. If it ain't so, make it so. Just as Monarch had done.



    See Post 2 w/r the switching.

    One of my two - January 1944 - has the same rig, "white" round-dial.

    Machines with that high-mounted long rod have the early revision "ELSR" controls.
    The "long lever" operated "motor switch" in the HS was moved to a short "pointer knob" switch perched atop the threading direction knob.

    Also check your meter's range setting.

    As-reads "15 VDC" should read 115 VDC or near-as- dammit, any OEM MG, WiaD, or Module drive 10EE, ELSR or otherwise. 150 VDC is improbable. Also wrong.

    10 to 25 VDC, 15 included, sez low-power, low voltage control loop for either of a solid-state DC Drive or a VFD's "remote" controls. You do not have one of those.

    IF the Exciter is supplying only 15 VDC? It needs "flashed". Maybe MORE than that. Read all about it on PM.

    It not only supplies (variable) Field Power.. it supplies "quasi-regulated" eg: relatively UN-varying 115 VDC control-loop power.

    For relays. And the CONTACTOR actuating coils.

    No power, no pull-in. No/low Field Power for the main generator, no sustainable DC to the final-drive motor's ARMATURE, either.

    "PS": Have you looked to see if that knob next to the reset button is a switch for the juice pump - "as usual"?

    Pump may be missing. Switch for it is still there? Stuff happens like that all the time.


    And "Oh, by the way"..

    Have you not noticed.... 60-plus posts by now - that all this "reporting" of various tidings.. is MOSTLY showing that you have not been doing YOUR HOMEWORK?

    It is covered "Right here, on PM". Already. More than a few times.

    Not ALL participants in the Monarch forum have a 10EE. Some have none. Some have two. A few have five or more.

    Not much of this is "new news".

    "So far" your one has produced no indication it was built with its feet on the wrong legs, tailbone connected to the eyeballs or any such weirdness. "Bog standard" it seems.

    RTFM.

    RTPM.

    Life will be easier. Restoral to usefulness will happen sooner.

  2. #62
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    With the ELSR option (that switch thing on the thread.feed select housing) the "N" might disable the drive - it does on the square dial ELSR. With the control in L or R the lever on the rod passing through the top of the saddle into the thread feed select housing should control the drive. I don't have a picture of things on your lathe, but the last image in the first post in this like shows most of the controls:

    Very Interesting Round-Dial 10EE -- EE27264

    Your lathe looks to have some odd dingus on the thread selector (a switch?) that I bet is involved with the problem.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    With the ELSR option (that switch thing on the thread.feed select housing) the "N" might disable the drive - it does on the square dial ELSR. With the control in L or R the lever on the rod passing through the top of the saddle into the thread feed select housing should control the drive. I don't have a picture of things on your lathe, but the last image in the first post in this like shows most of the controls:

    Very Interesting Round-Dial 10EE -- EE27264

    Your lathe looks to have some odd dingus on the thread selector (a switch?) that I bet is involved with the problem.
    Well.. yes.. that IS the ELSR switch control rod's mechanical "lockout" - early version as used on early 1940's "round dial".

    Very Interesting Round-Dial 10EE -- EE27264

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Well.. yes.. that IS the ELSR switch control rod's mechanical "lockout" - early version as used on early 1940's "round dial".

    Very Interesting Round-Dial 10EE -- EE27264
    I read through the post mentioned in the quote above and note the following:

    Checking the DC Panel
    In the AC panel the voltage between E1 and E2 was 120.8 VDC
    It was the same between E1 and E2 in the DC panel so there is nothing troublesome with the wiring from the AC panel to the DC panel.

    There is continuity in the fuse, so it should be good.
    There is continuity from C1 to E2 as well as from C2 to E2.
    The selector for the back gear is on back gear.

    One item Cal noted was that the exciter overload relay was tripped.
    Cal said "It's the left-hand of the two devices near the bottom of the panel, to the right of the terminals". See the attached image of my DC panel.

    inkedmonarch_10ee_image_dcmotorelectricalboxfrontview.jpg

    In my panel there is nothing to the right of the terminals. Was he referring to what I've circled in blue? I don't see any way to reset that

    I don't like the feel of the switch. I took it apart since clearly there is some reason it wouldn't go to the Left detent. See the attached images.

    When it is off it goes to the left detent and the unit can NOT be put back in place with it in the left position. As you can see in the first image one of those square "plates" on the shaft is likely blocking the piece the selector moves, from moving. The clutch knob is also stuck in my opinion, which could also be part of the issue.

    switchcaseinterior.jpg

    switchcaseinterior_left.jpg

    switchcaseinterior_right.jpg

    I believe the problem possibly lies with this selector or the clutch knob since the clutch knob only moves one detent to the right. I believe it is supposed to move all the way around the selector positions.
    mainview.jpg

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    I believe the problem possibly lies with this selector or the clutch knob since the clutch knob only moves one detent to the right. I believe it is supposed to move all the way around the selector positions.
    mainview.jpg
    CLEAN all around it. Take the curved, cast top cover off the HS.

    Clean again.

    Remove the sheet steel windage tray.

    Now "observe" with Mark One eyeball how that knurled knob acts on the Left-Neutral-Right dog clutch via a rack & pinion operated shifter fork.

    Read more, experiment "hands on" as you go so you OWN each increment of "the knowledge."

    In the fullness of time, less "I beleive".
    More "I now understand what Monarch DID."

    Seventy six years and counting, that 10EE knows what IT knows- couldn't change if it wanted to do. And it does not want to.

    Up to "We chikn's" to learn what the 10EE "believes".

    Not the other way 'round.


  6. #66
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    Hi Dinotom.

    First, you can make the MG unit run, correct? If wired correctly the MG has a 'neutral-safety micro switch. The start button to start the MG has to have the L-N-R switch has to be in neutral, or the MG won't start for safety sake, 'ready to spin the spindle'.

    Next, remove the cover on the end of the base under the tailstock, momentarily 'bump' the MG start button then quickly look at the belt and pulleys on the generator and piggyback exciter. There is usually a cast-in arrow on both of them showing correct rotation direction, most are clockwise. IF they are turning the wrong way, swap any two of the 3-phase power wires at or prior to the main contactor, this will change the motor rotation direction.

    With the MG running in the correct direction, measure the voltage output from the exciter. it should be 115-120VDC. If it is zero or near zero, then search this forum 'no exciter voltage'.. there is a very good post, a 'STICKY' at the begining of the Monarch forum. Here it is:
    10EE - No Exciter Voltage

    The exciter HAS to make make 115-120VDC in order to provide a field current for the DC Generator, the DC spindle motor, and the control of all the relays in the control panel in the motor-end of the lathe.

    So even if the MG starts, and runs, NOTHING else happens unless the exciter is creating 115-120VDC.

    Next, with the headstock end covers removed, make SURE the 'back-gear' is actually 'in gear' it can be 'between' gears, and the big DC spindle motor can run so quietly you do not know it's running, but the belts are not being powered due to the transmission not being in gear.

    The electric switch on your Left-Neutral-Right threading selector IS moving to the 'right' position, correct? if so it is irrelevant where the threading knob is, that only connects the spindle to power the lead-screw. The lathe will run just fine without the lead screw..
    at least in your case to the 'right'.

    So go through the above list and points, and read the 'no exciter voltage post' You should figure things out or at least know what is and is not working.

    DualValve

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    In post #64 he says he has exciter voltage. So if the forward or reverse relays don't operate, there may be an issue with the microswitches.

    Tom, Do you have a wiring diagram? Diagram EE-3218 should be correct for your machine and DC control panel.

    What you're calling the "AC panel" is usually referred to as the "MG terminal panel"; there are both AC and DC voltages there.

    The switch in back on the AC contactor cover, next to the reset button, controls the coolant pump.

    You can bypass the microswitches by connecting from E2 to either C1 or C2 at the terminals on the bottom of the DC control panel. Jumpering from E2 to C1 should cause the forward relay to close and the spindle to turn. It's best to make up a special jumper with a single pole switch and a 1/2 amp fuse, so that you don't burn something up. Make sure that you identify the terminals before attaching a jumper; it's easy to get off a row. Look at both the terminal label and the metal tags on the wires to verify that you're on the right terminals.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    In post #64 he says he has exciter voltage. So if the forward or reverse relays don't operate, there may be an issue with the microswitches.
    Aye.. switches in general.

    But hang on... 15 VDC was on the ARMATURE circuit after all, was it not?

    Tom? .. dumb question. Or maybe not?

    Have you run the speed control through it's range?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by DualValve View Post
    With the MG running in the correct direction, measure the voltage output from the exciter. it should be 115-120VDC.

    DualValve
    The MG is running in the correct direction.
    On the MG panel in the front of the machine I read the following

    E1 to E2 reads 124VDC
    GA1 to GA2 reads 14.8VDC
    GF1 to GF2 reads .01VDC
    GS1 to GS2 reads 0VDC

    Is there some other set of terminals to read the exciter voltage? Did I misunderstand Cal's original thread? I am getting 124 VDC at E1 to E2 in both the MG terminal box and the DC panel box and I would think that's correct and the motor is getting the DC voltage it needs.

    Also, the MG starts regardless of whether the switch is in N or R position, does this indicate its defective or the wiring is defective? In the pictures I posted, in post 64, it sure looks like those red wires aren't original.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    CLEAN all around it. Take the curved, cast top cover off the HS.

    Clean again.
    Remove the sheet steel windage tray.
    Now "observe" with Mark One eyeball how that knurled knob acts on the Left-Neutral-Right dog clutch via a rack & pinion operated shifter fork.

    Thermite,

    I did do all that. The knob, although it moves to the right does NOT appear to move the clutch mechanism at all.

    I also did not mention that the knob, when pulled out and turned to the right, does not push back in. If that means anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    Thermite,

    I did do all that. The knob, although it moves to the right does NOT appear to move the clutch mechanism at all.

    I also did not mention that the knob, when pulled out and turned to the right, does not push back in. If that means anything.
    I'm now trying to "walk with you" on my own January 1944 Round dial with (early) ELSR.

    Were are talking about the round, knurled knob which has three holes drilled into the back of it for a protruding pin off the casting at 6 o'clock that serves as detent. This is why I suggested being able to see the shifter fork move as you manipulate the knob.

    The pin or holes CAN get buggered by "Bubba" but it isn't likely.

    Shifter forks, OTOH, have been known to be BENT (my '42 10EE had that..).

    Getting the rack out of sync off a botched repair is actually less likely. Too extreme to escape early notice.

    If no one has already mentioned it, the dog clutch can need a bit of turning-over by hand of the spindle to engage.

    Until it does? No, the actuating knob cannot always be placed into either of L or R "home". Only Neutral is "don't care".

    That other gadget mentioned - knurled pin at about 8 o'clock - is not an electrical switch. It is a mechanical lockout to prevent the ELSR rod from tripping spindle shut-off accidentally when one is NOT using it intentionally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    The MG is running in the correct direction.
    On the MG panel in the front of the machine I read the following

    E1 to E2 reads 124VDC
    GA1 to GA2 reads 14.8VDC
    GF1 to GF2 reads .01VDC
    GS1 to GS2 reads 0VDC

    Is there some other set of terminals to read the exciter voltage? Did I misunderstand Cal's original thread? I am getting 124 VDC at E1 to E2 in both the MG terminal box and the DC panel box and I would think that's correct and the motor is getting the DC voltage it needs.

    Also, the MG starts regardless of whether the switch is in N or R position, does this indicate its defective or the wiring is defective? In the pictures I posted, in post 64, it sure looks like those red wires aren't original.
    The exciter is working, but that's only part of the equation.

    The exciter does three things:
    1. Provide voltage to operate the relays on the DC control panel
    2. Provide voltage to the spindle motor's field, via the "Motor Rheostat"
    3. Provide voltage to the generator's field, via the "Generator Rheostat"


    The exciter is connected to the generator and to the spindle motor by contacts on the forward (F) or reverse (R) contactor (aka relay). When neither F nor R are closed, the generator and spindle motor are disconnected.

    The voltage that you're seeing between GA1 to GA2 is due to residual magnetism in the generator's field. GF1 to GF2 is zero because the generator rheostat is disconnected by F/R and not providing voltage to the generator field. GS1 to GS2 is zero because the generator's armature is disconnected from the spindle motor's armature and no current is flowing through the generator's shunt field.

    Your problem, at this point, is that F/R aren't closing. You can try bypassing the microswitches, as suggested, to see if the spindle motor will run.

    BTW, the F-N-R selector on top of the tombstone doesn't, by itself, control the spindle; it just changes the sense of microswitches to match the direction that you're feeding/threading. The control rod that runs through the carriage is what actually operates the switches. It has to move left or right to cause the switches to operate. When you raise/lower the lever on the rod, that funny nut in the bracket on the right end of the control rod moves the rod left/right and in turns causes the cams to operate the correct microswitch. I've never had the opportunity to work with a round-dial ELSR, so I don't pretend to know how the cams accomplish this. When you figure it out, please let the rest of us know.

    Cal

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    Here are two links to my posts that explain the basics of how the motor/generator drive system works:

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    You can try bypassing the microswitches, as suggested, to see if the spindle motor will run.
    Handy item to have, given we are dealing with LETHAL voltages, here, is to fall by the local Big Box, pick up a blister-pak of replacement rubber tips for tube-legged stools and/or walking canes. Next, mosey over to the plumbing section and pick up one of those 2-foot precuts of PVC pipe the tips will fit. Or can be Gorilla-taped to not fall-off.

    Now... one has a "magic wand" as can push a contactor closed, physically.

    Worth it to know the "Big Rocks" are in the jar, primary power is "there".

    The switching - or broken wire or rheostat termination - that SHOULD be doing it can then be traced-out. In the usual simple, but - honestly - b****y TEDIOUS manner.

    Can't be helped.

    Just be glad a 10EE only "owns" a total of a bit under 80 wires and terminations, all-up.

    AND NOT over a 100,000 of even a modest Telco Central Office switch, back in the "space division" days.




    BTW, the F-N-R selector on top of the tombstone doesn't, by itself, control the spindle; it just changes the sense of microswitches to match the direction that you're feeding/threading. The control rod that runs through the carriage is what actually operates the switches. It has to move left or right to cause the switches to operate. When you raise/lower the lever on the rod, that funny nut in the bracket on the right end of the control rod moves the rod left/right and in turns causes the cams to operate the correct microswitch. I've never had the opportunity to work with a round-dial ELSR, so I don't pretend to know how the cams accomplish this. When you figure it out, please let the rest of us know.

    I SHOULD do this, given I have one of the rare birds where I can get AT it... but cannot commit to how soon. Pressing family bizness, this month and the next two, all complicated by Coronavirus suspension of air-travel, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Handy item to have, given we are dealing with LETHAL voltages, here, is to fall by the local Big Box, pick up a blister-pak of replacement rubber tips for tube-legged stools and/or walking canes. Next, mosey over to the plumbing section and pick up one of those 2-foot precuts of PVC pipe the tips will fit. Or can be Gorilla-taped to not fall-off.

    Now... one has a "magic wand" as can push a contactor closed, physically.

    Worth it to know the "Big Rocks" are in the jar, primary power is "there".

    The switching - or broken wire or rheostat termination - that SHOULD be doing it can then be traced-out. In the usual simple, but - honestly - b****y TEDIOUS manner.
    Thermite,

    Great suggestion. I used a 1" 3 ft wooden dowel to push in the contactors and the spindle turns. I assume that now means there is something wrong with the micro switches

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    Or the coils, or the AP relay, or ...

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    Thermite,

    Great suggestion. I used a 1" 3 ft wooden dowel to push in the contactors and the spindle turns. I assume that now means there is something wrong with the micro switches
    Not really. Per the late Field First Sergeant Willie Williams, veteran of the 101st Airborne jump into Holland:

    "ASSUME? If necessity is the Mother of Invention, then ASSUMPTIONS are the Mother of all F**k ups!"

    It more likely means you aren't turming the ELSR rod counterclockwise by enough for the cam-you-thot-was-a-gear at the TS end to shift the ELSR control rod far enough in the TS-direction to allow the lever/pointer switch to move clockwise.

    Just turn it far enough to center the rod's travel left-right, pull out the knurled locking pin at about 8 o'clock to the leadscrew direction shifter-fork control knob and lock it into Neutral.

    Now that the power switch can move, see whatcha got, power-delivery to the contactors wise.

    I'm tellin' yah... more hands-on and JUST TRY stuff, less "I beleive" keyboarding of guesses, pre-conceptions, and ASS U ME umptions......

    ... "lo and beHELD"... you'll come to discover that old 10EE can be be a right capable TEACHER.

    One does have to pay attention?

    My one is about forty feet from the keyboard, so wuddn' yah know it? I had to go and get hands on.

    10EE don't give ME no "free pass" to sit on my ass any more than it gives YOU one.

    JFDWT

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    It more likely means you aren't turning the ELSR rod counterclockwise by enough for the cam-you-thot-was-a-gear at the TS end to shift the ELSR control rod far enough in the TS-direction to allow the lever/pointer switch to move clockwise.
    As noted before, the apron, saddle and all three rods are off the machine.

    The L-N-R switch must be defective, since when its in R (can't get in L when its back in place) the MG should NOT turn on ...but it does and it is not supposed to (per other threads I've read).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Or the coils, or the AP relay, or ...

    Cal
    Cal,
    Any specific order of steps I should take to determine what's at fault?

    All the help I've gotten from you folks is greatly appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    As noted before, the apron, saddle and all three rods are off the machine.

    The L-N-R switch must be defective, since when its in R (can't get in L when its back in place) the MG should NOT turn on ...but it does and it is not supposed to (per other threads I've read).
    That "Right |N |Left" lever-knob switch is labeled with the "sensing" direction when threading to a "stop motor" point. It is ALSO the "FWD-OFF-REV" for the motor. Look around. WHERE is there any OTHER switch to serve that function?

    When it's interlocker rod is OFF the machine, you have created a "non-standard condition".

    That is no more any sort of Monarch-component "defect" than a flathead Ford V8 with the distributor off the mill and over the other side of the garage bay soaking in the parts warsher has an "ignition system defect".

    The "MG" has its own mag-starter (backside of the HS) and pushbutton switch (down by yer left knee).

    Start of a full shift or a shorter tasking session, the MG is sort of "armed". Put to running in standby mode, READY to deliver power, whether the final-drive motor has been told to USE that power or NOT.

    In case you missed that, its exciter is the only source of power FOR the switches that activate relays and contactors.

    They are all Dee Cee. There is no 24 VAC "control" transformer, as many other machines built more recently have.

    How could ANYTHING else be responsive if that nominal 115 VDC for the control loops were to be absent?

    OR.... "locked out".

    A 10EE may not be modern-day "OSHA safe", but neither was it dangerous. It has SEVERAL common-sense safety modes incorporated into its control loops.

    Latter-day ones added spindle-lock-engaged detection, and reduction gearbox linkage safety, too.

    Simple. Effective. But it will never understand humans well-enough to read minds.

    You have to understand the 10EE instead.

    Not hard. Not especially dangerous.

    Just a tad "unforgiving". Much like flying an airplane:

    Safety Poster Crash


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