Restoration of Monarch 10EE Serial#26080 Delivered on 11/2/1944 to Buick - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    That "Right |N |Left" lever-knob switch is labeled with the "sensing" direction when threading to a "stop motor" point. It is ALSO the "FWD-OFF-REV" for the motor. Look around. WHERE is there any OTHER switch to serve that function?

    When it's interlocker rod is OFF the machine, you have created a "non-standard condition".
    I am not familiar with all the parts actual terms, what is the interlocker rod?

    I took the lever mount off the machine to test the micro switches. They do not appear to ever make contact with the metal piece that the lever moves back and forth, which I assumed was an issue. I took the switches themselves off their mounts, turned the machine on and pressed each one in with a wooden dowel and they do turn the spindle.

    Do the push button tops of those switches wear out? It appears these may be worn down too much.

    I also notice that the metal piece the lever moves never moves far enough for the push button part of the switches to NOT make contact, if they could and I would guess the switch operates where when neither can make contact it's in N, when one makes contact its in R or L and when the other does its in the other direction. Please correct me if that is not right.

    monarch_10ee_image_microswitch.jpg
    monarch_10ee_image_microswitch2.jpg
    monarch_10ee_image_microswitch3.jpg
    monarch_10ee_image_microswitch4.jpg

    Image of the contacts on the switches
    monarch_10ee_image_microswitchcontacts.jpg

  2. #82
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    First of all, it's not clear to me that there's anything wrong with the switches. You're assuming that because the motor/generator will start with the "R-N-L" selector in the "R" position, that something is wrong. I think it's likely that you just don't understand how it's supposed to work. As you use the 10EE, you'll find that there are a LOT of controls that aren't intuitive and that unless you do things in the correct order, it won't work.

    As I said, I've never seen nor operated a round-dial with ELSR. I have operated a square-dial with ELSR. IIRC, you don't need to turn the selector knob (figure 12, knob H in the square-dial manual) to neutral to power up the drive. I would expect the same thing to be true with the round-dial ELSR. As I said before, the spindle forward-off-revese control for the machine is the lever on the control rod that runs through the saddle. You drew an arrow to the lever in your photo from your post #1:



    So that we can talk about things using the correct names, I direct you to Parts Picture No. E-14 in the round-dial manual:
    parts_e_14.jpg


    Round-dial parts are referred to by their parts picture and the number on the picture. The parts lists, located elsewhere in the manual, give the names of the parts. For example, the long rod that runs through the apron is part E14-56 and is called "Leadscrew Reverse Control Shaft". You'll find discrepancies between the parts lists and the parts pictures: for example, the control lever (R. H. Safety Stop Lever) is E14-62 on the parts picture, but number 63 on the list. I will use the parts picture number from here on.

    Push the control lever (E14-62) down, the spindle should turn forward, lift it up, the spindle should run in reverse. In the middle position the spindle is off. Somewhere there's a microswitch that senses the middle/off position of the control rod and rack (E14-56 and E14-12); that's the switch that must be in the closed position to allow the MG to start. You've taken the external portion of the control rod (E14-56) off and I suspect that you left the internal portion (E14-12) in the off position, which would explain why the MG will start. Oddly, Parts Picture E-14 only shows two microswitches (E14-26 and E14-61). However, wiring diagram EE-3218 shows three microswitches inside the dashed-rectangle labeled "Micro Switches in L.R.S. Housing". The third switch has terminals 3 and 3A; I imagine that it's in the bottom of the housing where it's not visible in your photos.

    Note that moving the control lever (E14-62) up or down rotates worm E14-52 and pushes/pulls the control rod (E14-56) and the attached control rod rack (E14-12). It's that sideways motion that operates the forward/reverse microswitches.

    As for checking the switches, I would hook an Ohmmeter to the terminal on each switch and verify that the switch closes when the plunger is pressed (this is done with the MG OFF). From there, you should be able to start the spindle by pressing and holding one of the switches. If that doesn't work, check for continuity between terminal C3 and terminals C1 or C2 at the bottom of the DC control panel (again, done with the MG OFF).

    Cal

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    Cal,

    Thanks for the detail, although it appears you didn't read my post which is the one right before yours. The micro switches work, I took them off their mounts and tried them individually by pushing down the plunger with a wooden dowel. The problem is the lever mechanism is NEVER pushing down the plunger on the microswitches in any position (at least with the mechanism unbolted from the headstock and why the lever is never making the spindle turn)

    I will post a video tomorrow of how my lever is working vis-à-vis the microswitch plungers so you will all have a better idea what I'm seeing.

    At this point I know the motors all work, which was really all I needed to know prior to taking them out so I can clean them up and clean out the inside of the lathe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    I am not familiar with all the parts actual terms, what is the interlocker rod?
    My own term, off the back of ONE of its functions. not Monarch's proper name.

    Mea Culpa. I've got the physical lathe. Cal does not, but HE has the manual and has dug it out for you, eg: "Leadscrew Reverse Control Shaft".

    What should by NOW be obvious is that it is ALSO the "Motor Switch", sometimes called "drum" switch, just not by Monarch. There is no other on an ELSR 10EE.

    Ultimately, Cal is telling you the same thing though.

    The machine wasn't MEANT to be operable by parts that are not even ON the lathe nor in their correct relationship. "Manual' lathe means "HANDS" are meant to be touching it. A "reaper" drone controlled from afar it is not.

    Back to why it isn't acting as you "believe" it should:

    With all this dissed-ass-scrambled, you don't have a faulty switch.

    You simply have no obvious and easy way to ACTIVATE the switch(es) in the manner and relationship required.

    Put it back the way it was meant to be and it should "Just F(aithfully) Work".

    "If it isn't broke, BREAK IT!" Only worked for Tommy Smothers - a stand-up comic, not a Machinist..


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    At this point I know the motors all work, which was really all I needed to know prior to taking them out so I can clean them up and clean out the inside of the lathe.
    There is a dead-simple "kit" of tricks to getting final-drive motor and MG in and out easily, but you need to know a few things, first:

    - The four feet of the final-drive motor are each SHIMMED to the mounting plate. Have a care to preserve that. Remove the bolts, pry the motor up. Extract the stack of shims, drop them into a ziplock bag, sharpy-mark which leg they b'long to.

    - The resilient mounts under the plate will have perished with age. Not always with equal "drop". Buy or make NEW ones and fit them before re-installing the motor. The plate needs to be reasonably level. Excessive drop makes it harder to get OEM belts on and off.

    To get the motor OUT, lever it up, place a length of big box steel angle under the feet, one each side, as rails protruding out the back. You will need more lift to clear over the top of some protruding bolt heads. Common 3/4" "polywood" exterior PVC-reglued sawdust trim fits, and is slippery when oiled. A short wooden pry board, and you can inch the motor out the back. Have a cheap furniture dolly handy, and off you go.

    - The MG has one fastener trapped under the "snail" discharge chute of the blower that wants a short-legged-Ell Allen wrench. I used an adapter I own to open-end wrench instead. Replace that one, better-yet ALL of them, WITH hex-headed bolts instead of Allen sockets, and no future problem. Common socket wrench, box endn or open end can reach, has better grip than silly Allen sockets. If ignorant hex-heads offend yer sensitivity? Replace silly-Allen with stouter Torx II.

    The MG also wants rails and lift to clear obstructions, but there's ANOTHER "CAVEAT".

    An MG's "belly" hangs down below the mounting ears. They are NOT "feet". And it is a cylinder. And it has a heavy Exiter mounted atop.

    Prepare in advance to draw it out onto a pair of elevated wood or metal rails, or the playful sumbich will ROLL OVER on yah in a New York Minute.

    If you use a dolly to move it about, that animal will need elevated blocking down each side to pick-op the mounting "ears" to prevent rollover as well.

    Pulling or putting back, NOTHING needs brute force lift. Just something to slide it over the bumps atop, a bit of tight-space, short-stroke levering work and extra patience because each pry-lever "bite" is a small one - no help for it.

    Take good notes as you disconnect the wires. Take BETTER fotos of them as well.

    Add your own markings if need be with a packet of those tie-wraps with the label tabs already built-in and a sharpie.

  6. Likes DualValve liked this post
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    There is a dead-simple "kit" of tricks to getting final-drive motor and MG in and out easily, but you need to know a few things, first:
    Thermite,

    An excellent outline of steps, thank you. Going to be starting on it Monday

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    Default Extra NOTES

    Hi dinotom.
    Sounds like you are going to really 'spruce-up' your 10ee. I've not pulled either the spindle drive motor-gearbox or pulled the MG unit on either of my 10ee lathes.
    I did purchase a MG unit and it was very nicely boxed/crated on a HD pallet for shipping [thanks again Bill] The MG is awkward to maneuver, and like Thermite said, will roll over with ease. I would recommend that as soon as possible, to put two 'skids' under the unit, Like a ~30" 2x4 on each side, and lag-screw the MG to the wood skids. This should provide 'SOME' stability to the top-heavy unit.

    I will emphasize Thermite's comment about photos and notes.. I used to have an excellent memory.. And when performing tasks like disconnecting wiring, my brain still 'thinks' I have a good memory: I'll remove a wire, look at it's position, the logic of it's bends and then think: 'I'll remember that'.. and move on to the next wire.. BIG MISTAKE. So I'm slowly learning to not only take photos. but to make my own line-drawings with each wire labeled with my own marker/tag/label. The photos don't show all the number tags but my sketch can and does.
    I just hate having to drape out leads to my VOM to identify a wire from a tagged-connection 3-4 feet away.. With my sketch and photo, that is not needed.

    When you have the spindle drive motor out and the MG unit out, it is a good time to take advantage of the easy access to the brushes. brush tension springs and wires. The brushes should slide easily in their guides and the springs provide steady pressure on them. Do not 'dress' the commutators unless you find burnt/blackened segments, the commutators will have a dark-copper penny color, this is correct. There are many posts/threads on the subject of brushes and commutators here on PM.

    Looking forward to your photos of 'before and after' your clean up !

    DualValve

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    Default Unknown part in coolant sump

    Does anyone recognize if this is a part from the 10EE? I found it in the coolant sump when I was cleaning it out. It has NTN stamped on it so it could be some kind of bearing retainer? (It has a set screw and through hole and it looks like one side is a bearing race)

    unknown1.jpg
    unknown11.jpg
    unknown111.jpg

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    Default Coolant pump specs

    My lathe originally came with a coolant pump. Not that I really care, but I'd like to restore it as close to original spec as possible. I want to keep a look out for the pump/parts its missing. I asked Monarch for the pump/motor specs, which they would not provide but they said they have the parts in stock for $1200, which Im not willing to do, at least now.

    Does anyone have any pictures of the coolant unit? A parts diagram for it? A set of specs for the motor and/or pump?

    Any help appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    My lathe originally came with a coolant pump. Not that I really care, but I'd like to restore it as close to original spec as possible. I want to keep a look out for the pump/parts its missing. I asked Monarch for the pump/motor specs, which they would not provide but they said they have the parts in stock for $1200, which Im not willing to do, at least now.

    Does anyone have any pictures of the coolant unit? A parts diagram for it? A set of specs for the motor and/or pump?

    Any help appreciated.
    Howland motored. ISTR B&S added the pump, supplied them to Monarch as a unit?

    I have a complete pump from a '42 round-dial lying loose, here, but not sure I didn't already scrap the mounting goods. I may have a second one as well.

    There "might be" a thread on PM with fotos covering the cleanup of motor and pump. It was a seriously well-built item.

    Heavy bugger, too. Prolly cost as much to safely crate and ship as what I've been buying new single-phase ones for.

    CAVEAT: Those don't fit into the built-in compartment of an MG-era 10EE. I run plumbing OFF the machine to a portable juice cart.

    Email me (NOT "Private Message" - the box is always full) if you want it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    CAVEAT: Those don't fit into the built-in compartment of an MG-era 10EE.
    "Those" refer to the original motor/pump or the second one you have?
    If you have the one from the 42 round dial, I'd probably prefer that. I can make a mounting bracket.

    I will email you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    "Those" refer to the original motor/pump or the second one you have?
    If you have the one from the 42 round dial, I'd probably prefer that. I can make a mounting bracket.

    I will email you.
    OEM pumps, both. If the '44 even still has its one. It's sorta "landlocked" tight at the back whilst I'm scraping paint, operator side, at the moment.

    Best hope that I still have the mount. It was a complex bit of kit so the pump could be removed for service.

    CAVEAT TWO: I have only the two Round dials. I have no klew if the later square dial mounts the same juice pump the same way (shaft horizontal, not shaft vertical) as the R-D's do, nor if they have the same compartment and mount.

    Others on PM WILL know the answer to that.

    Best to wait until one of them confirms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    - The four feet of the final-drive motor are each SHIMMED to the mounting plate. Have a care to preserve that. Remove the bolts, pry the motor up. Extract the stack of shims, drop them into a ziplock bag, sharpy-mark which leg they b'long to.

    - The resilient mounts under the plate will have perished with age. Not always with equal "drop". Buy or make NEW ones and fit them before re-installing the motor. The plate needs to be reasonably level. Excessive drop makes it harder to get OEM belts on and off.

    To get the motor OUT, lever it up, place a length of big box steel angle under the feet, one each side, as rails protruding out the back. You will need more lift to clear over the top of some protruding bolt heads. Common 3/4" "polywood" exterior PVC-reglued sawdust trim fits, and is slippery when oiled. A short wooden pry board, and you can inch the motor out the back. Have a cheap furniture dolly handy, and off you go.

    - The MG has one fastener trapped under the "snail" discharge chute of the blower that wants a short-legged-Ell Allen wrench. I used an adapter I own to open-end wrench instead. Replace that one, better-yet ALL of them, WITH hex-headed bolts instead of Allen sockets, and no future problem. Common socket wrench, box endn or open end can reach, has better grip than silly Allen sockets. If ignorant hex-heads offend yer sensitivity? Replace silly-Allen with stouter Torx II.

    The MG also wants rails and lift to clear obstructions, but there's ANOTHER "CAVEAT".

    An MG's "belly" hangs down below the mounting ears. They are NOT "feet". And it is a cylinder. And it has a heavy Exiter mounted atop.

    Prepare in advance to draw it out onto a pair of elevated wood or metal rails, or the playful sumbich will ROLL OVER on yah in a New York Minute.

    If you use a dolly to move it about, that animal will need elevated blocking down each side to pick-op the mounting "ears" to prevent rollover as well.

    Pulling or putting back, NOTHING needs brute force lift. Just something to slide it over the bumps atop, a bit of tight-space, short-stroke levering work and extra patience because each pry-lever "bite" is a small one - no help for it.
    Bill,

    Just getting started today on removing the MG unit but before I do I just want to clarify some items you noted above.

    See the following images:

    Left side of MG Unit
    inkedmonarch_10ee_image_mgunit_left_li.jpg

    Right side of MG Unit
    inkedmonarch_10ee_image_mgunit_right_li.jpg

    There appear to be flat bar "rails" already under the unit and its mounting feet. Has someone modified the mounting to make it easier to remove the motor the next time? Or are these the original mounts from Monarch?

    It "appears" I can just unbolt the flat bar mounts, pry it out from behind until I can pull it out by the flat bar "rails"

    monarch_10ee_image_mgunit.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    Bill,

    Just getting started today on removing the MG unit but before I do I just want to clarify some items you noted above.

    See the following images:

    Left side of MG Unit
    inkedmonarch_10ee_image_mgunit_left_li.jpg

    Right side of MG Unit
    inkedmonarch_10ee_image_mgunit_right_li.jpg

    There appear to be flat bar "rails" already under the unit and its mounting feet. Has someone modified the mounting to make it easier to remove the motor the next time? Or are these the original mounts from Monarch?

    It "appears" I can just unbolt the flat bar mounts, pry it out from behind until I can pull it out by the flat bar "rails"

    monarch_10ee_image_mgunit.jpg
    OEM, AFAIK.

    The salvaged one I shipped recently had the same rig. A "probably" matching tell-tale that the piggyback exciter had its mounts sorted out to permanent pads, fixed position. Whereas the older ones stood on adjustable stand-off studs.

    It seems to have been a change that went down somewhere after my '42 AND '44 "round dial" MG were built. Both of those had four individual pads, probably Neoprene.

    I don't personally know if the change to rails meant it was part of the "Square dial" revision set or preceeded it.

    I didn't take that one I shipped out, but had to pull the rails to crate it. Fasteners were rusted, had to be sawed through as the underside head was sotted, not hex. One side was already missing outright as well.

    It should be "somewhat" easier to pull and put back than those without attached rails, but...

    .. note the larger diameter of the main cylindrical body of the unit, and that there is a large azure UNDER it in the floor of the base casting.

    AFAIK, you'll still need to block under both sides to prevent it rolling on the curve of its belly, as that STILL hangs low.

    .. you'll still "benefit" from getting Ell if not also polywood under them before trying to slide and/or pry-bar "dogpaddle" the heavy bugger - out OR in.

    What I did to ship that one was to space a pair of 2" X 12" parallel, just enough gap to thread lifting straps though, then Sawzall an azure under the belly, half in each plank.

    The 1 5/8" or so "actual" thickness of the nominal two-by was JUST enough the belly cleared the 4-by skid that was under the top planks at right angle, centered. I was even able to put a thin wooden wedge in there for best stability.

    There's yer hint as to how "tall" the naked "ears" sit above the belly. Right about an inch and a half? Rail and rubber pads might be about 3/8" thick, net-net?

    Don't want to overdo the lift, or the top fo the MG will hit the underside of the sump.

    Once out, lifting strap or chain placement needs finesse as well. The balance point is just a tad rearward of the "front" edge of the exciter, and you do NOT want to snag either of the electical box, nor any conduits.

    I use "furniture" dollys, plus a cheap H-F jack-up die cart and a ratchet hoist off a beam clamp - hanging the beast shaft-axis vertical by straps - to mess with these.

    Not really "in to" working on my belly, nor all bent-over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    It seems to have been a change that went down somewhere after my '42 AND '44 "round dial" MG were built. I don't personally know if that meant it was part of the "Square dial" revision set or preceeded it.
    This machine is a round dial delivered in Nov 1944 to Buick motors.

    And the MG Unit pulled right out using the "flat bar rails" onto an 18" long HF dolly. Easy as pie.

    monarch_10ee_image_mgunit_out.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    This machine is a round dial delivered in Nov 1944 to Buick motors
    I have other stuff to do before I order a manual, belts, brushes, wiper felts & c. - and ask Monarch "to whom" initially shipped, but..

    .. "Round-dial" # EE 25152 4-1944 still had the adjustable stud exciter standoffs, seperate pads, no rails.

    So at least now PM knows the year the change was made.

    Not the month. Yah have to keep in mind that all through the War, priorities were constantly being juggled.

    My 9-1942 delivered "Brass" round-dial has a lower S/N (assigned at INITIATION, December, 1941, not completion), than a passle of higher S/N 10EE sent to Canada that were ordered LATER but shipped earlier.

    Buick, FWIW, was into M18 "Hellcat" tank destroyer design, War Two.

    Harley Earl's team, plus a descendent of the Marmon flour-milling machine empire, later fast road and racing car, family.

    To the present day, there ain't many armoured vehicles as fast over the ground as a Hellcat. Had to be fast. Their armour was a joke, and their gun wasn't much unless yah could get to a favourable angle on a Tiger or Panther tank, eg: BEHIND the sumbich, one round and "game over".

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    Default Motor/Exciter cleanup

    Now that I have the MG Unit out, I've cleaned it up pretty good. Taken all the grease fittings off and thoroughly cleaned them and inspected the motor inards as best I can without dis-assembling. Although I generally replace the bearings, this unit ran so well I am loathe to mess with it.

    I did find a badly worn wire, which I fixed.

    Bad wire
    badwire.jpg

    Fixed
    wire_fixed.jpg

    Can anyone opine on the condition of the copper? it looks okay to me.

    Exciter
    exciter.jpg

    Motor
    acmotor.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    Now that I have the MG Unit out, I've cleaned it up pretty good. Taken all the grease fittings off and thoroughly cleaned them and inspected the motor inards as best I can without dis-assembling. Although I generally replace the bearings this unit ran so well I am loathe to mess with it.

    I did find a badly worn wire, which I fixed.

    Bad wire
    badwire.jpg

    Fixed
    wire_fixed.jpg

    Can anyone opine on the condition of the copper? it looks okay to me.

    Exciter
    exciter.jpg

    Motor
    acmotor.jpg
    Yep if it ain't broke don't fix it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labeeman View Post
    Yep if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    Meahh.. It's out. It ain't a touchy to mess with "PM" motor. I have two spare motors. Do you have even one spare?

    I'd pull the innards, clean the housing, run a coupla thin coats of Xylol-thinned red glyptal, air-dry ..unless you can take it to a shop and have it done proper with Vacuum and bake?

    Turn the commutator, do the bearings, clean the brush-holders, seat the brushes nicely. Adjust the "tamper" on each for the new full-length brushes, etc.

    Because you can.

    And the motors have gone scarce. And because NEW Baldor/Reliance RPM III Dee Cee motors hve an MSRP of around eleven-THOUSAND-Mike-Foxtrot US dollars? And aren't even as smooth as the old style?

    Also.. it's a bit of a bitch to take 'em out and put 'em back, even though an "ordinary" commutator stoning and brush refresh can be done WITHOUT need of removing Motor OR MG. Access is a tad tight, but "do able" as they were designed to be serviced in situ.

    And most of all because "done well"... that'll buy you about ten years or so of not having to mess with it again.

    MAYBE not even for new brushes. The minimum life is about 2,000 Power-On-hours. They can run about triple that, conditions are good.

    "Power On" meaning making turns. The MG and/or motor. Not the calendar on the wall.

    So one to three sets of brushes a year, wartime 3-shift work, NOW translates to MANY years, typical Old Iron no longer working even ONE shift, full 8 hours, nor even every day of every week.

    I've a motor about half-way through all that, but then again, it WAS the one I used for "destructive testing".

    Wuddn' yah know it? Reliance-cut-nails-tough old large-frame simply refused to destruct, commutator flash-over corona, RPM waaay past 2400 .. or not..

    But I do gots to get some molten Copper spatter dealt with!


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    Now that I have the MG Unit out, I've cleaned it up pretty good. Taken all the grease fittings off and thoroughly cleaned them and inspected the motor inards as best I can without dis-assembling. ...

    Can anyone opine on the condition of the copper? it looks okay to me.

    Exciter
    exciter.jpg

    Motor
    acmotor.jpg
    The second photo is not the "ac motor". You're looking at the DC generator end of the motor/generator combo. The AC motor is in the other end. The belt driven unit on the top is the DC exciter.

    The commutator on the exciter looks fine. The generator's commutator is worn down quite a bit where the brushes run and I don't like the looks of the dark bands. I don't know if a commutator dressing stone could true this up. I'll ping hitandmiss Bill and see what he thinks.

    Cal


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