Restoration of Monarch 10EE Serial#26080 Delivered on 11/2/1944 to Buick - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    That "Right |N |Left" lever-knob switch is labeled with the "sensing" direction when threading to a "stop motor" point. It is ALSO the "FWD-OFF-REV" for the motor. Look around. WHERE is there any OTHER switch to serve that function?

    When it's interlocker rod is OFF the machine, you have created a "non-standard condition".
    I am not familiar with all the parts actual terms, what is the interlocker rod?

    I took the lever mount off the machine to test the micro switches. They do not appear to ever make contact with the metal piece that the lever moves back and forth, which I assumed was an issue. I took the switches themselves off their mounts, turned the machine on and pressed each one in with a wooden dowel and they do turn the spindle.

    Do the push button tops of those switches wear out? It appears these may be worn down too much.

    I also notice that the metal piece the lever moves never moves far enough for the push button part of the switches to NOT make contact, if they could and I would guess the switch operates where when neither can make contact it's in N, when one makes contact its in R or L and when the other does its in the other direction. Please correct me if that is not right.

    monarch_10ee_image_microswitch.jpg
    monarch_10ee_image_microswitch2.jpg
    monarch_10ee_image_microswitch3.jpg
    monarch_10ee_image_microswitch4.jpg

    Image of the contacts on the switches
    monarch_10ee_image_microswitchcontacts.jpg

  2. #82
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    First of all, it's not clear to me that there's anything wrong with the switches. You're assuming that because the motor/generator will start with the "R-N-L" selector in the "R" position, that something is wrong. I think it's likely that you just don't understand how it's supposed to work. As you use the 10EE, you'll find that there are a LOT of controls that aren't intuitive and that unless you do things in the correct order, it won't work.

    As I said, I've never seen nor operated a round-dial with ELSR. I have operated a square-dial with ELSR. IIRC, you don't need to turn the selector knob (figure 12, knob H in the square-dial manual) to neutral to power up the drive. I would expect the same thing to be true with the round-dial ELSR. As I said before, the spindle forward-off-revese control for the machine is the lever on the control rod that runs through the saddle. You drew an arrow to the lever in your photo from your post #1:



    So that we can talk about things using the correct names, I direct you to Parts Picture No. E-14 in the round-dial manual:
    parts_e_14.jpg


    Round-dial parts are referred to by their parts picture and the number on the picture. The parts lists, located elsewhere in the manual, give the names of the parts. For example, the long rod that runs through the apron is part E14-56 and is called "Leadscrew Reverse Control Shaft". You'll find discrepancies between the parts lists and the parts pictures: for example, the control lever (R. H. Safety Stop Lever) is E14-62 on the parts picture, but number 63 on the list. I will use the parts picture number from here on.

    Push the control lever (E14-62) down, the spindle should turn forward, lift it up, the spindle should run in reverse. In the middle position the spindle is off. Somewhere there's a microswitch that senses the middle/off position of the control rod and rack (E14-56 and E14-12); that's the switch that must be in the closed position to allow the MG to start. You've taken the external portion of the control rod (E14-56) off and I suspect that you left the internal portion (E14-12) in the off position, which would explain why the MG will start. Oddly, Parts Picture E-14 only shows two microswitches (E14-26 and E14-61). However, wiring diagram EE-3218 shows three microswitches inside the dashed-rectangle labeled "Micro Switches in L.R.S. Housing". The third switch has terminals 3 and 3A; I imagine that it's in the bottom of the housing where it's not visible in your photos.

    Note that moving the control lever (E14-62) up or down rotates worm E14-52 and pushes/pulls the control rod (E14-56) and the attached control rod rack (E14-12). It's that sideways motion that operates the forward/reverse microswitches.

    As for checking the switches, I would hook an Ohmmeter to the terminal on each switch and verify that the switch closes when the plunger is pressed (this is done with the MG OFF). From there, you should be able to start the spindle by pressing and holding one of the switches. If that doesn't work, check for continuity between terminal C3 and terminals C1 or C2 at the bottom of the DC control panel (again, done with the MG OFF).

    Cal

  3. #83
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    Cal,

    Thanks for the detail, although it appears you didn't read my post which is the one right before yours. The micro switches work, I took them off their mounts and tried them individually by pushing down the plunger with a wooden dowel. The problem is the lever mechanism is NEVER pushing down the plunger on the microswitches in any position (at least with the mechanism unbolted from the headstock and why the lever is never making the spindle turn)

    I will post a video tomorrow of how my lever is working vis-à-vis the microswitch plungers so you will all have a better idea what I'm seeing.

    At this point I know the motors all work, which was really all I needed to know prior to taking them out so I can clean them up and clean out the inside of the lathe.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    I am not familiar with all the parts actual terms, what is the interlocker rod?
    My own term, off the back of ONE of its functions. not Monarch's proper name.

    Mea Culpa. I've got the physical lathe. Cal does not, but HE has the manual and has dug it out for you, eg: "Leadscrew Reverse Control Shaft".

    What should by NOW be obvious is that it is ALSO the "Motor Switch", sometimes called "drum" switch, just not by Monarch. There is no other on an ELSR 10EE.

    Ultimately, Cal is telling you the same thing though.

    The machine wasn't MEANT to be operable by parts that are not even ON the lathe nor in their correct relationship. "Manual' lathe means "HANDS" are meant to be touching it. A "reaper" drone controlled from afar it is not.

    Back to why it isn't acting as you "believe" it should:

    With all this dissed-ass-scrambled, you don't have a faulty switch.

    You simply have no obvious and easy way to ACTIVATE the switch(es) in the manner and relationship required.

    Put it back the way it was meant to be and it should "Just F(aithfully) Work".

    "If it isn't broke, BREAK IT!" Only worked for Tommy Smothers - a stand-up comic, not a Machinist..


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    At this point I know the motors all work, which was really all I needed to know prior to taking them out so I can clean them up and clean out the inside of the lathe.
    There is a dead-simple "kit" of tricks to getting final-drive motor and MG in and out easily, but you need to know a few things, first:

    - The four feet of the final-drive motor are each SHIMMED to the mounting plate. Have a care to preserve that. Remove the bolts, pry the motor up. Extract the stack of shims, drop them into a ziplock bag, sharpy-mark which leg they b'long to.

    - The resilient mounts under the plate will have perished with age. Not always with equal "drop". Buy or make NEW ones and fit them before re-installing the motor. The plate needs to be reasonably level. Excessive drop makes it harder to get OEM belts on and off.

    To get the motor OUT, lever it up, place a length of big box steel angle under the feet, one each side, as rails protruding out the back. You will need more lift to clear over the top of some protruding bolt heads. Common 3/4" "polywood" exterior PVC-reglued sawdust trim fits, and is slippery when oiled. A short wooden pry board, and you can inch the motor out the back. Have a cheap furniture dolly handy, and off you go.

    - The MG has one fastener trapped under the "snail" discharge chute of the blower that wants a short-legged-Ell Allen wrench. I used an adapter I own to open-end wrench instead. Replace that one, better-yet ALL of them, WITH hex-headed bolts instead of Allen sockets, and no future problem. Common socket wrench, box endn or open end can reach, has better grip than silly Allen sockets. If ignorant hex-heads offend yer sensitivity? Replace silly-Allen with stouter Torx II.

    The MG also wants rails and lift to clear obstructions, but there's ANOTHER "CAVEAT".

    An MG's "belly" hangs down below the mounting ears. They are NOT "feet". And it is a cylinder. And it has a heavy Exiter mounted atop.

    Prepare in advance to draw it out onto a pair of elevated wood or metal rails, or the playful sumbich will ROLL OVER on yah in a New York Minute.

    If you use a dolly to move it about, that animal will need elevated blocking down each side to pick-op the mounting "ears" to prevent rollover as well.

    Pulling or putting back, NOTHING needs brute force lift. Just something to slide it over the bumps atop, a bit of tight-space, short-stroke levering work and extra patience because each pry-lever "bite" is a small one - no help for it.

    Take good notes as you disconnect the wires. Take BETTER fotos of them as well.

    Add your own markings if need be with a packet of those tie-wraps with the label tabs already built-in and a sharpie.

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  7. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    There is a dead-simple "kit" of tricks to getting final-drive motor and MG in and out easily, but you need to know a few things, first:
    Thermite,

    An excellent outline of steps, thank you. Going to be starting on it Monday

  8. #87
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    Hi dinotom.
    Sounds like you are going to really 'spruce-up' your 10ee. I've not pulled either the spindle drive motor-gearbox or pulled the MG unit on either of my 10ee lathes.
    I did purchase a MG unit and it was very nicely boxed/crated on a HD pallet for shipping [thanks again Bill] The MG is awkward to maneuver, and like Thermite said, will roll over with ease. I would recommend that as soon as possible, to put two 'skids' under the unit, Like a ~30" 2x4 on each side, and lag-screw the MG to the wood skids. This should provide 'SOME' stability to the top-heavy unit.

    I will emphasize Thermite's comment about photos and notes.. I used to have an excellent memory.. And when performing tasks like disconnecting wiring, my brain still 'thinks' I have a good memory: I'll remove a wire, look at it's position, the logic of it's bends and then think: 'I'll remember that'.. and move on to the next wire.. BIG MISTAKE. So I'm slowly learning to not only take photos. but to make my own line-drawings with each wire labeled with my own marker/tag/label. The photos don't show all the number tags but my sketch can and does.
    I just hate having to drape out leads to my VOM to identify a wire from a tagged-connection 3-4 feet away.. With my sketch and photo, that is not needed.

    When you have the spindle drive motor out and the MG unit out, it is a good time to take advantage of the easy access to the brushes. brush tension springs and wires. The brushes should slide easily in their guides and the springs provide steady pressure on them. Do not 'dress' the commutators unless you find burnt/blackened segments, the commutators will have a dark-copper penny color, this is correct. There are many posts/threads on the subject of brushes and commutators here on PM.

    Looking forward to your photos of 'before and after' your clean up !

    DualValve


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