Restoration of Monarch 10EE Serial#26080 Delivered on 11/2/1944 to Buick - Page 8
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  1. #141
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    Working on cleaning up a lot of the carriage and apron parts I removed a month or so ago. Upon cleaning the carriage dial I noticed what appears to be a broken casting.

    monarch_10ee_image_carriagedial.jpg

    Both Halves
    monarch_10ee_image_carriagedialbothhalves.jpg

    And the half with the broken cast iron in the center
    monarch_10ee_image_carriagedialbackpartbroken.jpg

    I've looked in the parts manual, and part #60 is the cross feed micrometer dial, but there are not two parts listed (both halves?) and the diagram only shows 1 piece. I've tried searching for other pictures but not finding what I'm looking for. What broke off the back side of that dial half?

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    Working on cleaning up a lot of the carriage and apron parts I removed a month or so ago. Upon cleaning the carriage dial I noticed what appears to be a broken casting.

    monarch_10ee_image_carriagedial.jpg

    Both Halves
    monarch_10ee_image_carriagedialbothhalves.jpg

    And the half with the broken cast iron in the center
    monarch_10ee_image_carriagedialbackpartbroken.jpg

    I've looked in the parts manual, and part #60 is the cross feed micrometer dial, but there are not two parts listed (both halves?) and the diagram only shows 1 piece. I've tried searching for other pictures but not finding what I'm looking for. What broke off the back side of that dial half?
    Not sure I'm looking at the same part. Probably not. But I am in mind of the stand-off that spaces the crossfeed dial back-body out along the shaft of the crossfeed screw so it clears the edge of the cross when fully toward the operator. Other end has a flange sort of modified rhombus shaped, ears for attach bolts

    IF so, PM DOES in fact have a prior thread on a broken one of those, what the repair options were, and success at a fix. Should be within the last two years if memory serves.

    Even if NOT the same part? That portion of the design and construction may be very similar, and the method of repair readily adaptable as well.

  3. #143
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    I think this is what you need:

    img_0428.jpg


    Thats a hard part to break, unless the lathe did a face plant or had a run-in with a forklift.
    The photo actually shows two parts, the front part of the telescoping lead screw and the back of the cross-slide ball-screw assembly. do you have a taper attachment? If not, then you don't need the front part of the telescoping leadscrew.

    I also don't see the thrust bearings in the photos, or the rest of the broken piece. There should be a bushing in the center of the broken piece.

  4. #144
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    The weird part is I did not find the broken casting anywhere. The lathe could've been damaged prior to getting it as I bought it sight unseen in an auction for very little.

    The front part is the travel dial, unless my memory (and what I wrote on the bag) is wrong, this is for the carriage movement dial.

    If that's the right part, and it appears so, I'm grateful you have it. I'll take the part, let me know how much and how to pay you for it.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    The weird part is I did not find the broken casting anywhere. The lathe could've been damaged prior to getting it as I bought it sight unseen in an auction for very little.

    The front part is the travel dial, unless my memory (and what I wrote on the bag) is wrong, this is for the carriage movement dial.

    If that's the right part, and it appears so, I'm grateful you have it. I'll take the part, let me know how much and how to pay you for it.
    I still wonder if the two of you are even looking at the SAME part?

    Trav-a-dial and CARRIAGE movement is not the same function as cross-slide traversal.

    It would be serendipitous if Monarch's frugal design team had efficiently contrived to utilize the same casting to build BOTH.

    But did they?

    Along the same line?

    I jumped to the conclusion that a 10EE curved HS-end "upper" that had been fitted for collet lever-closer was the large, most-rearward casting with the hole for the arse-end of the spindle.

    The smaller curved and topmost casting on the entire machine that covers the sheet-steel windage tray and has an oil fill cap leading to the strainer I already have a surplus spare for.

    "Clarification and confirmation time", both of those two situations?

    Before any of us waste money on shipping, very attractive prices for the goods or no.

    No real harm that a surplus 10EE part is in different hands, so long as not a smelter, but still...

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Not sure I'm looking at the same part. Probably not. But I am in mind of the stand-off that spaces the crossfeed dial back-body out along the shaft of the crossfeed screw so it clears the edge of the cross when fully toward the operator. Other end has a flange sort of modified rhombus shaped, ears for attach bolts
    Not all round dials. The 1939-1940 machines have a rectangular flange with 4-bolts, which also means the saddle is different. A later round dial cross feed dial will not fit a 1939-1940 machine, only one of the bolt holes lines up. Heres a photo:

    img_0429.jpg


    Also, you might or might not have noticed, but the dial on the cross feed assembly is concave, and turns inward, leaving a lip. I might be wrong, but I think it was designed to allow temporary indicators like the spring steel one shown in the photo, so you can keep track of your start or destination. The 1940 lathe came with 3-4 of them and they have numbers on them. Maybe its a standard part? Or, rather, maybe the cross feed dial was designed to fit a standard part used on other machines.

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    IF so, PM DOES in fact have a prior thread on a broken one of those, what the repair options were, and success at a fix. Should be within the last two years if memory serves.

    Even if NOT the same part? That portion of the design and construction may be very similar, and the method of repair readily adaptable as well.
    Its the same part, look carefully.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    The weird part is I did not find the broken casting anywhere. The lathe could've been damaged prior to getting it as I bought it sight unseen in an auction for very little.

    The front part is the travel dial, unless my memory (and what I wrote on the bag) is wrong, this is for the carriage movement dial.

    If that's the right part, and it appears so, I'm grateful you have it. I'll take the part, let me know how much and how to pay you for it.
    email me, [email protected]. You didn't answer my question: does the lathe have a taper attachment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    Not all round dials. The 1939-1940 machines have a rectangular flange with 4-bolts, which also means the saddle is different. A later round dial cross feed dial will not fit a 1939-1940 machine, only one of the bolt holes lines up. Heres a photo:

    img_0429.jpg


    Also, you might or might not have noticed, but the dial on the cross feed assembly is concave, and turns inward, leaving a lip. I might be wrong, but I think it was designed to allow temporary indicators like the spring steel one shown in the photo, so you can keep track of your start or destination. The 1940 lathe came with 3-4 of them and they have numbers on them. Maybe its a standard part? Or, rather, maybe the cross feed dial was designed to fit a standard part used on other machines.



    Its the same part, look carefully.
    It surely matches what I have, two complete, one partial part-out, one with TA, the other two not. But all 3 same MG-era '42 & '44 Round Dials.

    Tom is the one with less to go on. If the broken-off portion is gone then measuring the bolt TO flange should do?

    You'll sort it, I'm sure.

    I'll email you later on the top cover casting. We've all got other stuff on our respective plates.

  9. #149
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    The lathe as ordered and delivered to the original owner (Buick Motors) had a taper attachment. Long lost by now, as it didn’t come with the machine.

    I will Contact you with some pictures of a few other parts I could use if you have them as well.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    The lathe as ordered and delivered to the original owner (Buick Motors) had a taper attachment. Long lost by now, as it didn’t come with the machine.
    "Detective work" Time has passed. Both of my ones had TA's as-built. The '44 still has. The '42 no longer, and it may have had a new crossfeed screw and nut fitted along the way, as it no longer has the telescoping style Dave showed, either. Check your one, same thing might have been done when your TA vanished.

    His one may work either with or without the TA? If so, good excuse to put finding and re-doing a TA onto your round-tuit-wish-list?

    I bought the reproduction bed clamp, rod, and nut from PM member vettebob. Nice goods.


  11. #151
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    Dave,
    I was searching through all my original pictures from delivery to today and...
    well, I found where that casting broke from. See the image below.

    Carriage with broken casting area circled
    monarch_10ee_image_carriage.jpg

    I also have not taken that screw out of the carriage yet but will today to verify what screw type I have.

    I am also looking for this switch if you have one in your pile of parts. I think mine is not working properly, and I have new electrical components for it already.

    monarch_10ee_image_threadsandfeedsswitch_rnl.jpg

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    The lathe as ordered and delivered to the original owner (Buick Motors) had a taper attachment. Long lost by now, as it didn’t come with the machine.

    I will Contact you with some pictures of a few other parts I could use if you have them as well.
    OK, then more info is needed. Do you have a photo of the cross slide screw? Or did that go away along with the taper attachment? When the taper attachment is removed, if the telescoping cross slide screw is left behind, the back end of it needs to be secured in place, otherwise it will still telescope. Whenever it wants to... On the other hand, if a non-telescoping cross slide screw was installed, that changes the way the cross slide handle assembly attaches, as well as the bushing inside the cross slide handle. How about taking lots of pictures to show what you have, then we can help without a lot of guesswork.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    Dave,
    I was searching through all my original pictures from delivery to today and...
    well, I found where that casting broke from. See the image below.

    Carriage with broken casting area circled
    monarch_10ee_image_carriage.jpg

    I also have not taken that screw out of the carriage yet but will today to verify what screw type I have.

    I am also looking for this switch if you have one in your pile of parts. I think mine is not working properly, and I have new electrical components for it already.

    monarch_10ee_image_threadsandfeedsswitch_rnl.jpg
    Great, that helps. It looks like that part is loose, but if it does not pull through easily, don't pull hard. Instead, loosen the cap bolts that attach the saddle to the apron, along with the saddle lock knob, about 1/4" so that the apron will sag down, and the feed gear in the saddle will be low enough that the metal washers on either side of the felt wiper will clear the gear. Then it will slide out easily.

    Tighten the capscrews up again, it is very easy to damage the lube oil line that goes from apron to saddle on the right side, behind and under the threading dial.

    I think the switch is a readily available part. It has been awhile since I owned a round dial with elsr, but it is easy to remove the handle for the switch and then take the top off to get at the switch.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    I think the switch is a readily available part. It has been awhile since I owned a round dial with elsr, but it is easy to remove the handle for the switch and then take the top off to get at the switch.
    I have the same switch on my '44 MG round dial, but mine still has the first-generation high-mount ELSR control rod "mosty" intact and functional that seems to be missing from Tom's fotos.

    All mine needs is another stop-point collar and the missing actuator handle - both easily fabbed, here.

    Not yet ready to part with any of that. I can open it up and take fotos of the switch internals if needed.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    ...

    I am also looking for this switch if you have one in your pile of parts. I think mine is not working properly, and I have new electrical components for it already.

    monarch_10ee_image_threadsandfeedsswitch_rnl.jpg
    Go back and read what I wrote in post #82. It's not at all clear to me that you have any problem with the R-N-L selector on the top or the microswitches in the casting. The selector isn't supposed to control the spindle. If you don't have the horizontal rod--the one that runs through the carriage--that operates all the cams inside the casting, then that's the problem, as I attempted to explain in post #82.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    Go back and read what I wrote in post #82. It's not at all clear to me that you have any problem with the R-N-L selector on the top or the microswitches in the casting. The selector isn't supposed to control the spindle. If you don't have the horizontal rod--the one that runs through the carriage--that operates all the cams inside the casting, then that's the problem, as I attempted to explain in post #82.

    Cal
    Seconded. The switch pre-selects direction to "pay attention to" WHEN the rod shifts, Left, Right, or Neutral (ignore).

    It does not "directly" act, otherwise. The hand lever on the rod is your input to control the motor.

    - Best if the rod, cam at the TS end, actuating handle, and the setting collars can be restored to "as-built".

    The ELSR works just as well on this first generation design as it works on the later one. All they did was move the switches to the TS end for a cleaner overall rig, mechanically - less exposure to damage, safer "reach", etc.

    - If that restoral to the OEM situation can NOT be accomplished?

    Then you will have non-standard wiring to implement.

    Some prior owner may have already done that? Don't know.

    "Online" help cannot guess at HOW that was done, or even IF it was done, only that it MAY have been done if the prior owner had it RUNNING before/as you received it.

    ... or NOT done if the prior owner did NOT have it running.

    Which you may not even know the answer to? And "we" certainly do not.

    Detective work to sort which, and what to do about it, needs to be done "hands on".

    Your end.

    Our arms are too short to reach!


  17. #157
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    The round dial ELSR is a very interesting system. You owe itself to take it apart and figure out how it works, then ask some more questions. I think one thing not mentioned above is that there is a safety interlock on the left side. If it is pushed in, then nothing works, and you can spend hours trying to debug a problem that does not exist.

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  19. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    The round dial ELSR is a very interesting system. You owe itself to take it apart and figure out how it works, then ask some more questions. I think one thing not mentioned above is that there is a safety interlock on the left side. If it is pushed in, then nothing works, and you can spend hours trying to debug a problem that does not exist.
    Been covered, but.. it acts on the control rod. Mechanically, not electrically.

    So far, Tom's photos show no control rod.

    If it is lying loose amongst his parts, it needs to be put back.

    If it is missing outright, the only HARD part to fab is the spiral cam, TS end.

    The rest is easily fabbed from a stock length of pre-keywayed Thompson shafting and a few other odds and sods for collars and some form of operator control handle.

    "Page Two":

    Not SURE from the photos, but I didn't see the half-round groove under the front edge of the saddle that clears the control-rod, either.

    This 10EE may have seen some part swaps in a prior life?

    Such as a conversion AWAY from ELSR and back to plain that left it neither fish nor fowl?

    OR .. it may HAVE been completed - and the only "mystery" is that it expects to be controlled some other way than what we are accustomed to?

    I did say "on site detective work?"

    By this stage we are repeating earlier advice, some of it more than once, already.

    AFAIK, all the needed background is already on PM, and with photos. If Photobucket didn't eat them, anyway.

    As my 1944 R-D does have the same revision-level of ELSR, and is mostly-intact, (missing handle, but rod, cam, collar are OK) I can try to fill in any blanks.

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    Default Back to the broken casting

    My apologies for the delayed response. I spent most of the weekend cleaning up the dozens and dozens of parts on my workbenches and finished prepping the parts that need painting so I could have room on one of the workbenches for the carriage so I could work on it.

    I dug up these pictures from when I dis-assembled the carriage and apron.
    In the first image the broken cast iron stem is plainly in view. The second image shows the screw in the carriage, it doesn't look like it telescopes to me.

    Broken stem
    monarch_10ee_image_carriagedialbrokenstem.jpg

    Carriage Screw
    monarch_10ee_image_carriagescrew.jpg

    On another note, I can't see how to get the screw out of the carriage, there seems to be a washer and/or spline gear that prevents it from coming out the front. Any procedures to follow to remove the screw?

  21. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    On another note, I can't see how to get the screw out of the carriage, there seems to be a washer and/or spline gear that prevents it from coming out the front. Any procedures to follow to remove the screw?
    Please re-read post 153 above, the instructions for dealing with that problem are there. I'm about to join the chorus, it seems.


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