Restoring 10EE 1954 vintage - Page 17
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 17 of 18 FirstFirst ... 715161718 LastLast
Results 321 to 340 of 343
  1. #321
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Peralta, NM USA
    Posts
    5,661
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    49
    Likes (Received)
    473

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    I think I need to clarify a bit. The lever assembly I am referring to is actually two mechanisms (which are switches). The switch with the lever sets whether the feed rod or the thread rod spins. Coaxial to that mechanism is a round knob actuated range shift mechanism. The shaft that is part of the range shift mechanism is the one I think there is no seal for. I include the section drawing that I have that shows the threaded collar I am having trouble with. That collar is circled in red. Next to that collar is a gap where the waxy string came out of. Next to that gap is bushing. There does not seem to be any space where an oil seal could go.
    Ahh, the other right . Here's a shot of the assembled shaft coming out of the gearbox on my '56:

    lever1.jpg

    and here's the lever back:

    lever2.jpg

    There's only a square key between the 2. The knob is held on only by a taper pin. Here's a shot with the collar removed:

    lever3.jpg

    In mine it's graphited yarn, aka packing. I suspect that what's happening is that something's in the threads, maybe some old packing. Bend a bit of wire and be sure that you can run it through the threads making sure that they're clean.

    Looking at 201073 I expect that going from the outside in there's this threaded collar, the packing, then finally a bushing. Make sure that the threads are clear out from the bushing, slip it over the inner shaft and repack until the collar is tightish against the packing but the smaller shaft still moves easily enough. Don't try all this without the inner shaft in place

    I probably have some of the packing around, I use it in steam engine valves and such. Let me know if you need some, likely that won't use more than a foot or so.

    Here's a section of the gearbox print showing all this:

    lever4.jpg

    It seems to show the threaded collar (SK-1783), something, then a bushing (K-140). I think the something is the packing.

    (Sorry if this is somewhat incoherent, it's been edited 4 times after multiple shop trips)

  2. Likes daryl bane liked this post
  3. #322
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Maryland
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    9

    Default Seal

    Thank you very much for sharing your experience with the shaft in question. It all looks very similar to what I am looking at. And thank you for the offer of the string. I might take you up on it but if I recall the string I pulled out looked to be in decent shape. The section drawing does not seem to imply anything goes in there...but the string idea seems like at least something. I gave some thought to sticking some o-rings in there.....not sure if that would be any better.

    BTW..different topic...does anyone recall if there is a gasket between the apron and the saddle? I was hoping to hang the apron this weekend but just recalled that maybe I am missing a gasket.

    -Walt

  4. #323
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Peralta, NM USA
    Posts
    5,661
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    49
    Likes (Received)
    473

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    Thank you very much for sharing your experience with the shaft in question. It all looks very similar to what I am looking at. And thank you for the offer of the string. I might take you up on it but if I recall the string I pulled out looked to be in decent shape. The section drawing does not seem to imply anything goes in there...but the string idea seems like at least something. I gave some thought to sticking some o-rings in there.....not sure if that would be any better.
    There's a seal for the outer shaft, so there's going to be something seal the inner as well, and the packing is the only thing in there to do it. If you look at the threaded bit it's got something of a inner cone shape to press the packing in against the shaft. You might make something to work with o-rings if you can find o-rings with the right cross section (you'd want something that would give a little squish - something like .007 with a round section should be good) but really, packing is almost ideal for a rotating member like this.

    BTW..different topic...does anyone recall if there is a gasket between the apron and the saddle? I was hoping to hang the apron this weekend but just recalled that maybe I am missing a gasket.
    No gasket. Harry Bloom had to shim his to get the apron at the right height with the saddle mounted. You can check the height from the bottom of the saddle to the top of the lead screw, it's a nice value in imperial units (something like 3 1/2", but that's an old and untrusted memory) or feed rod (6.375"? again memory). If that's the same at the left side down to the leadscrew exiting the gearbox and on the right side down to the leadscrew where it enters the rear bearing mount you're in good shape for all of the half nut engagement, the feed rod and the ELSR control if you have one, and the apron pinion will mesh with the rack to drive the saddle right If you mess with the interface between them the power cross feed gearing will change mesh.

  5. #324
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Maryland
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    9

    Default Assembling gear box

    I apologize for not posting recently. I was out of the country for 4 weeks and the last two have been a mad game of catch up.

    The assembly work continues. I had to fiddle around a lot with the thread/feed switch (lower right handle) to get things to work nicely. I have gotten pretty good at assembling and taking things apart. I only had to pull the gearbox in/out twice from the base but now I think it is in there for good. I was able to install the thread rod and feed rod through the apron into the gearbox output flanges but I have not checked the heights yet of the rods as was suggested.

    I am now focusing on cleaning up the left side of the machine where the pulleys and belts reside. Just more of the tedious clean, strip, prime and paint routine. I drained the box for the back gear transmission and need to clean up the oil level sight glass. I have not decided what to do with the main power shutoff box but I really do not like it on the back of the base. And all of the large covers need more cleaning and stripping before primer.

    Overall there is progress...just slow due to all the handwork. I really should put the kids to task on this stuff.

    -Walt

  6. #325
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Maryland
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    9

    Default Seeking advice

    I could use some advise for two issues.

    1. The electronics control box...I recall a thread where Daryl did an awesome job cleaning up the rear of the box where a lot of the wires terminate onto a stud. I was wondering if I should bother spraying down that backside and taking a toothbrush to kind of clean it up. I was never sure how Daryl got his so clean..but I thought maybe some WD40 would help? I am not sure if I am getting myself into trouble poking around all those connections. This is what I am looking at

    monarch_eebox_13aug2018.jpg
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Sj...V_Ox5NPxVf9F9l

    2. I am about to assemble everything on the saddle. I am taking the advice to freshen up the way surfaces by doing a little scraping. This is my first try at adding "frosting". I am looking at the way surfaces at my mill as a model but I don't think I have the density or the depth of these things right. Would someone comment if this looks sufficient?

    monarch_frosting_13aug2018.jpg
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=15f...QKBcsJ7eFoKqkc

    Thanks in advance for any help given.

    -Walt

  7. #326
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    dallas,tx
    Posts
    2,497
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    543
    Likes (Received)
    458

    Default

    I can't remember how I cleaned it. My faulty memory sort of remembers that it was pretty clean to begin with. I have one of those siphon sprayer things that looks like a blowgun but with a fitting out the end that you stick in a bucket of whatever. I think a spray with Simple Green and a soft brush followed by a clean rinse might do the trick and then set out in the sun to dry.

  8. #327
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,631
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    828
    Likes (Received)
    484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    I could use some advise for two issues.

    1. The electronics control box...I recall a thread where Daryl did an awesome job cleaning up the rear of the box where a lot of the wires terminate onto a stud. I was wondering if I should bother spraying down that backside and taking a toothbrush to kind of clean it up. I was never sure how Daryl got his so clean..but I thought maybe some WD40 would help? I am not sure if I am getting myself into trouble poking around all those connections. This is what I am looking at

    monarch_eebox_13aug2018.jpg
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Sj...V_Ox5NPxVf9F9l
    ...
    Absolutely DO NOT use WD-40 to clean it! There are zero-residue electronics cleaners out there, but an old toothbrush and isopropyl alcohol (99% pure) or distilled water will do the trick just fine. You can use a bar of pure Ivory soap with distilled water if necessary, just get a little soap on the toothbrush and work gently, rinse away all soap when done. Just make sure that the panel and wiring has plenty of time to dry after cleaning, especially if the humidity is high where you are. 99% Isopropyl is zero residue and is often used for cleaning expensive optics, etc.

    You can do a search for "how to clean antique radio chassis" for other tips. Believe it or not, one method of cleaning radio chassis is to run them through the dishwasher, but I wouldn't recommend that.

    Please post before and after photos an let us know what worked for you.

    Cal

  9. #328
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    27,329
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8519

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    I could use some advise for two issues.

    1. The electronics control box...I recall a thread where Daryl did an awesome job cleaning up the rear of the box where a lot of the wires terminate onto a stud. I was wondering if I should bother spraying down that backside and taking a toothbrush to kind of clean it up. I was never sure how Daryl got his so clean..but I thought maybe some WD40 would help? I am not sure if I am getting myself into trouble poking around all those connections.
    Trouble you SHOULD have because one or more of the wires - longer ones usually, may have fatigued from vibration, cracked right at the solder or terminal joint, and find itself being held there only by the stiffness of wires and accumulated varnish in the fossilized cambric sleeve. It is a GOOD thing to find those and repair them, as sometimes they are "intermittent" connections to a relay and make for gnarly-mysterious part-time faulting.

    As to what "soup"? Isopropanol or ethanol - denatured alcohol that does NOT use Methyl spirits. Look for Crown's white and green-labeled organic, all natural or wotever they are calling it this week at Big Box. Methanol damages markings, brains, eyes, etc. among other things.

    For a bit more spend, CRC electrical cleaner to finish-up. We USED to use Freon, but you know what happened to that.

    2. I am about to assemble everything on the saddle. I am taking the advice to freshen up the way surfaces by doing a little scraping. This is my first try at adding "frosting". I am looking at the way surfaces at my mill as a model but I don't think I have the density or the depth of these things right. Would someone comment if this looks sufficient?
    Perhaps you covered it earlier, but what is more important is how your transfer straightedge "printed" the accuracy of the corrective scraping job that preceded the flaking.

    It only looks "cosmetic", and is not applied until the surface under it has already been brought back to dead-true or near-as-dammit by scraping for alignment. Hopefully, you did that already, did it well, and I just missed it.

    Scraping and flaking are "preferably" applied to the underside of the upper surface where two meet, the lower, upward-facing surface left smooth to make for more effective wiping.

    The depressions trap wear particles and any other grit or trash they CAN trap as well as oil, the "tackifiers" in way oil HELP them trap crap to be carried under the surfaces and do the dirty. We benefit if gravity is helping the pumped circulation flow get that s**t OUT, rather than holding it IN.

    Not that it is a disaster, either way. The amount of use and wear vs "TLC" a "retired" 10EE gets in its fourth life or so, it could be another fifty or a hundred years before it even matters.

  10. #329
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Maryland
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    9

    Default

    I apologize I have not updated in a long while. This project has sat dormant due to work, kids, renovations, etc. I picked it up a couple weeks ago and now have some idea where I left it. I included a picture of the current state of affairs. I sent some of the covers out for stripping to avoid that whole issue with scraping lead paint.

    monarch_22nov2019_rdcd.jpg
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1he...LFNCfgWPTnUCdt

    I have reassembled the compound and cross slide and they work a whole lot nicer now. I filled the various cavities with oil. I am a bit uncertain that the pump in the apron is doing its thing all the way up to the ways on the bed. Is there a way I can verify that? I have been smearing way lube on the ways until I have a better feel this oil delivery system is doing its job.

    When I left things I had a problem with the power latching. When I went back and examined the pictures I discovered a loose connection at the main start button that somehow did not catch my eye previously. After staring at the wiring diagram for hours and rereading all the Cal threads I could find I concluded that wire was the problem. I labeled the wires using a label maker, remade the connection and now the power latches. I realize labeling the wires is a bit weird but it took me so long to figure things out that I wanted to capture all the work somehow.

    I am now back to my original problem in that the spindle does not spin. Recall I took apart the drum switch at the spindle and cleaned everything up. I have also replaced those resistors in the control box. I went through Cal’s debugging tips and discovered the generator is spinning the wrong way. I flipped two of the power leads to get the generator spinning the right way but that did not cure the spindle problem.

    At this stage I suppose I need to follow Cal’s advice about looking into the exciter to see if voltage is coming through at that point. 10EE - No Exciter Voltage Does this sound right? I am not sure where else to start looking. I also plan to go back and check all the brushes and commutators but I believe I have already done that. I will update and the mystery plays out.

  11. #330
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    62
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    20
    Likes (Received)
    15

    Default

    Hello MB. I've been battling with a rough old 10ee MG, 1942 version that I bought as a 'parts' lathe. but since I was able to get it to run a month or two ago, I decided to get it working well enough to use it as a dedicated tool-post grinder machine..

    Anyway: a few weeks ago while I was running the lathe, it quit, that is the DC relays opened, and the spindle coated to ta stop.
    The MG unit continued to run.
    I found that the exciter was only putting out about 3.5vdc.

    My exciter seems to check out with the checks from Cal's very good sticky on 'No Exciter Voltage'..
    And many other more urgent jobs have sidetracked me from further work on the MG.

    I would certainly check the voltage output from the MG, and exciter, and start there with chasing down
    your lathe's problems.

    If you have 120vdc from the exciter and 260vdc from the MG, you should be able to find a loose connection,
    broken wire or relay with bad contacts or bad windings.

    Keep us up to date with what you discover, sharing your work diagnosing is how we keep these old machines alive.

    DualValve.

  12. #331
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Louisiana
    Posts
    372
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    195
    Likes (Received)
    66

    Default

    With no exciter voltage nothing will work you need to restore the exciter voltage FIRST.

  13. #332
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Navasota / Whitehall Texas
    Posts
    3,617
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2643
    Likes (Received)
    1999

    Default

    So where do you send covers to be stripped and how much did it cost?

  14. #333
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,631
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    828
    Likes (Received)
    484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    ... I am a bit uncertain that the pump in the apron is doing its thing all the way up to the ways on the bed. Is there a way I can verify that? ...
    Have you had the saddle and apron off yet? If not, it's highly recommended that you pull them. It only takes an afternoon to go through them. Before you put the saddle back on, you can block up the apron and verify that it's pumping oil out line to the saddle and the pressure relief valve in the top of the apron.

    If you've already been through the carriage, there's a test port with a plug on the manifold under the saddle. You should see about 15 PSI pressure at the port.

    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    ... I went through Cal’s debugging tips and discovered the generator is spinning the wrong way. I flipped two of the power leads to get the generator spinning the right way but that did not cure the spindle problem.

    At this stage I suppose I need to follow Cal’s advice about looking into the exciter to see if voltage is coming through at that point. 10EE - No Exciter Voltage Does this sound right? I am not sure where else to start looking. I also plan to go back and check all the brushes and commutators but I believe I have already done that. I will update and the mystery plays out.
    Once the motor/generator is running, the next thing is to verify that the exciter is putting out 115 VDC. If it is, you can skip that thread.

    Cal

  15. #334
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Maryland
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    9

    Default

    Regarding paint stripping....after driving myself a little nuts cleaning up the apron and saddle I decided to have the gearbox, covers, etc done professionally. I work in the Wash DC area and found this place Welcome to ChemStrip The results were great. This time around I handed off the two big covers on the headstock end of the machine and the closeout panels on the tail end and the front. $150 for those 4 covers. Totally worth it to me to avoid my anxiety about handling lead paint.

    Regarding the oil delivery system in the apron...I have completely redone the apron (disassembled and cleaned) and the oil manifold. I cleared out the lines and replaced the mitering valves. At this stage should I pull the cross slide off to see if the oil is reaching the cross slide ways? Also, should I wait until I can drive the oil pump off the feed shaft instead of manually running the apron back and forth?

    Regarding the spindle drive...I ventured into the terminal box to see what I could find. Looks like the two top screws are E2 and E1 which, according to the schematic, are the wires from the exciter. without disconnecting anything, I measured something around 2 to 3 VDC. The number on my VOM was jumping around a bit (but staying around the 2-3 range)...maybe that indicates something?

    monarch-terminal-block.jpg
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L-...tSgJvGRfNmeJqF

    So I am going to dig into the brushes on the exciter to make sure that is not the problem. Then I guess I will go through Cal's procedure from there.

    -Walt

  16. #335
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,631
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    828
    Likes (Received)
    484

    Default

    Definitely an exciter problem. If you're lucky, it just needs to be flashed. Go through the procedure an let us know what you find.

    Cal

  17. #336
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Maryland
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    9

    Default

    I am very excited to report that cleaning up the exciter brushes and commutator did the trick. The spindle now turns with a flip of a switch. I cannot express how excited I am. This machine has not run in 3 years or longer and I was beginning to think I was never going to get to the bottom of it. Many thanks to Cal for all his very excellent posts over the years.

    Next issue...I have a leather belt driving the feed shaft. Should I get something better or is this good enough?

    monarch-feed-belt.jpg

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wV...gSuflPKiGDInm-

    Also...I decided to reinstall the power shut off box on the back of the base of the machine. I took the time to clean it up and repaint the box. The inside was quite a mess filled with chips, etc. I will have to seal things up better to keep that from happening again.

  18. #337
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    England UK
    Posts
    1,832
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    766
    Likes (Received)
    751

    Default

    If that leather belt works, it works. Mine was badly perished so I swapped it for a small poly-vee belt.

  19. #338
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    27,329
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8519

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    Next issue...I have a leather belt driving the feed shaft. Should I get something better or is this good enough?
    Mine - '42 and '44 round dials, arrived with rather badly perished fabric composite belts frayed where the edge of the naked spindle has a keyway.

    Used a PolyVee as Peter did, Vee's inward. Even if that edge rib perishes, the tension member won't fray. Plus it's cheap - about $13 - and available, walking distance, actually.

    Also...I decided to reinstall the power shut off box on the back of the base of the machine. I took the time to clean it up and repaint the box. The inside was quite a mess filled with chips, etc. I will have to seal things up better to keep that from happening again.
    $25 to $40, I' ve found US-made 3-phase rotary disconnects. They fit a cast-alloy outdoor type "Bell" box as come with weatherseal gaskets.

    No worry about chips or coolant and neat enough to mount on the FRONT of the lathe, TS end.

    Also possible, since they utilize a 5mm square shaft, to put the escutcheon and knob flush, the switch on the other side of the casting in a box.

    We've all seen these in red and yellow. MANY machines use them, long years, already.

  20. Likes MachinistBlue liked this post
  21. #339
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Maryland
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    9

    Default Mounting collet closer

    Thanks to all for the advice on the leather feed shaft belt. I will leave it as is for now.

    Also thanks for the comments on the power shut off. I will look into what it takes to mount a modern version on the front of the machine. Seems to me I have to at least run a cable from the back side around the machine to the front. Probably inside metal conduit?

    I now have a used collet closer that came off another 10EE. My machine does not have the bolt pattern drilled into the head stock where the main support bracket attaches. I am a little nervous drilling into the machine right there as the view from the end of the machine it looks like an oil line is feeding into something. I assume the head stock gearbox pumps oil back to the top there...but I don't really know that. Has anyone ever attached a collet closer? I am not really sure what the procedure is for mounting it. Seems to me I should mount everything up with a collet in the nose and somehow prop up the bracket on the back of the machine for transfer drilling. Does that sound right?

    Still very excited I have a machine that ACTUALLY spins.

  22. #340
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    27,329
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8519

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    Also thanks for the comments on the power shut off. I will look into what it takes to mount a modern version on the front of the machine. Seems to me I have to at least run a cable from the back side around the machine to the front. Probably inside metal conduit?
    Metal conduit or metal flex. It may see Long, long years of neglect.

    Have a look at the "floor" of where the Mag starter sits, comparment back of the HS.

    Odds-are the wires from the disconnects usually mounted on the back come up there from a conduit routed inside the machine.

    Relying on memory. Gutted the first one. The feed now comes in above where the juice-pump used to be.

    Can't get at the one that is still OEM. "landlocked" at the backside.

    I now have a used collet closer that came off another 10EE. My machine does not have the bolt pattern drilled into the head stock where the main support bracket attaches. I am a little nervous drilling into the machine right there as the view from the end of the machine it looks like an oil line is feeding into something. I assume the head stock gearbox pumps oil back to the top there...but I don't really know that. Has anyone ever attached a collet closer? I am not really sure what the procedure is for mounting it. Seems to me I should mount everything up with a collet in the nose and somehow prop up the bracket on the back of the machine for transfer drilling. Does that sound right?
    Beats me. I use exclusively "nose" closers, lever/loop, Sjogren, Rubberflex, ER... even the 5C is a key-cranker on D1-3.

    A 10EE has too small a bore already for me to be sticking drawtubes down its throat.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •