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  1. #21
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    Grinding was done only on the top surfaces. The V and flat ways I milled out myself. I removed about .060 for a recommended thickness for the Moglice. Accuracy of the milled surfaces is not necessary due to the Moglice system. This to me is one of the main reasons to go this route, especially a small or home shopper with limited scraping expertise. This seems to get lost on a few people. For a way grinder, maybe post this question on the main board and somebody from your area might chime in. The outfit needs a big grinder and the knowledge to do this type of work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daryl bane View Post
    Grinding was done only on the top surfaces. The V and flat ways I milled out myself. I removed about .060 for a recommended thickness for the Moglice. Accuracy of the milled surfaces is not necessary due to the Moglice system. This to me is one of the main reasons to go this route, especially a small or home shopper with limited scraping expertise. This seems to get lost on a few people. For a way grinder, maybe post this question on the main board and somebody from your area might chime in. The outfit needs a big grinder and the knowledge to do this type of work.
    If you take a gander at some of my most recent Monarch threads you will see the process unfold in real time right now.

    Bed is currently AT the grinder's ( member Cash of Kinetic ) Their web page, HERE

    I had some moderate to slightly more wear and some other issues, so chose to go all in and do it right. It is not for the timid. It would be relatively simple to really have things go sideways without someone that truly knows what they are doing. That is why I entrusted this job to Cash. He does this quite a bit, and with verifiably excellent results.

    The beauty of the Monarch sub forum here, is that many others have been down this path before you, and have graciously recorded their travels here. So you have the luxury of not only reading about it, but seeing it in process, with descriptions, as well.

    Some wonderful help is available in the stickies threads at the top of the Monarch sub forum page. HERE

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    Could someone fill me on what "Moglice" is all about? Why would this be a better route than a regrind?

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    Ouch, you do need some learnin. Moglice and Turcite are not a substitute for grinding, you use these products in conjunction with the grinding. Ok, think about this, when you regrind worn out ways straight and true, how do you get the things that RIDE on those ways, the carriage/tailstock back to the original height and in alignment? Those components are now gonna sit lower after the grind are they not? and the feed rods and leadscrew won't line up anymore. They have to be raised up some way. Thats what turcite and moglice do. You gotta put something back to account for what was taken off, so you put this stuff on the bottom of the carriage to get it back to it original height, on the newly ground ways.

    Its alittle more complicated than that , but that's the gist of it. I bet Zahnrad will present a great pictorial on the entire process.

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    On the subject of which paint: You need to be VERY careful about using epoxy paints as an amateur. So of the hardeners contain isocyanates and are extremely toxic! You need a supplied air respirator and other specialized equipment to safely apply. The health hazards involved are orders of magnitude worse than dust from lead based paint. Personally, I stay the heck away two part paints. You can get a very durable finish with enamel paints, how nice a finish depends on your skill applying it.

    Cal

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    The most hazardous two part paints are polyurethane systems, stay away from them unless you are well versed in using them safely and have the equipment to use them in that manner. What makes people sick and has killed is an unpredictable allergic reaction that can happen suddenly, don't roll the dice.

    One part polyurethane enamels are available in the boat industry and are safe to use without elaborate safety measures. They are excellent for painting machine tools too. Another advantage is they can be applied by both brush and spray. A skillful brush job looks like a spray job, they flow and level that well.

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    Default Back on the case

    I apologize for not following up on this thread. Got into an accident on a mountain bike, hurt my back at work and then worse of all turned 50. The things the medical industry does to you at that point are mean and hurtful.

    So my lathe project has been rolling around in my head but only recently has come to the front. The drive no longer spins the spindle for whatever reason. This machine has the original MG set and I have replaced the braking resistors. I have no idea why it has stopped. It was working fine for a while but now nothing. Of course I have fiddled with everything and cycled my RPC several times (whatever that might do) to no avail. This has made me reconsider updating the system. The paint stripping is ongoing as is tearing down the apron.

    So I see that someone is now marketing a solid state replacement board to keep the DC motor working. The fact they want $1,500 for it seems kind of ....ummmm....not attractive to me? So I am back to thinking about putting an AC motor in it and installing a VFD. I have so many questions about this that I am not sure where to even start.

    Let me begin with where do I go for a motor and VFD. Being green I have no idea what makes for good with either item. I assume buying new is wiser than used stuff. And a motor like a Baldor is lower risk than a junk no-badge sort of deal. How about for picking a VFD? I see things on EBay that seem reasonably priced but I have no idea how to not get screwed over by some piece o'junk. Is Drivewarehouse.com a reputable outfit?

    Any help in getting me out of neutral and onto buying new internals would be greatly appreciated.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    The drive no longer spins the spindle for whatever reason. This machine has the original MG set and I have replaced the braking resistors. I have no idea why it has stopped. It was working fine for a while but now nothing. Of course I have fiddled with everything and cycled my RPC several times (whatever that might do) to no avail.
    Just re-read your threads. Aside from braking resistors, I don't see any mention of any cleaning or checking of any other part of the OEM MG system.

    - The final-drive motor has a commutator that wants a clean-up now and then.

    - Four brushes want replaced, typically every 2,000 power-on-hours. Check the manual.

    - There are brushes and commutator in the exciter (a DC generator).

    - There are brushes and commutator in the 'main' DC generator on the same shaft as the 3-P AC drive input motor.

    - All of the relay and contactor contacts in the DC control panel can benefit from cleaning and burnishing.

    - The 'Motor Switch' for FWD-OFF//BRAKE-REV is made up of a multi-lobe cam that actuates a squad of Microswitches. The cam wears. The switches can fail.

    - Wiring and terminations have proven extraordinarily durable, but given the age, any and all CAN fail, especially at a termination.

    It is a tedious and time-consuming project to go through all that end-to-end, but there isn't anything particularly expensive about any of it. Once put right, it can last 'additional' multiple decades, just as it has already done.

    How much of that thorough going-over have you done already?

    Or are you looking at a drive conversion primarily to avoid it?



    Bill

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    Default going over the electicals

    Bill,

    Thank you very much for those suggestions. I have not gone after all those elements in the drive....mostly due to ignorance. Most of what I have put into the machine at this stage is cleaning and scraping. I started to take the apron apart but have gotten stuck where the feed drive meets up with the head end of the machine (to the left). I cannot figure out how the shaft is coupled to the feed drive.

    I guess I should spend the time to put in new brushes and clean things up. The idea of replacing the drive came from a couple thoughts:

    1. All the cool kids do it. Seriously...the threads I have read of those who moved over to VFD seem to express much joy in the new set up.
    2. The power draw out of the wall (via my RPC) seems like a lot. Whenever I start up the lathe the lights dim, etc.
    3. The size of the sparks coming out of the control box scare the life out of me. The actual box is missing its cover so maybe I would feel better if I just close that out.
    4. Not have to power up an RPC seems like it might be nice. That background noise of the motor spinning can be a bit annoying.

    This machine seems pretty whipped so I am not positive it is a good investment (to install a VFD and AC motor). Having put $3k into it I am hesitant to put another $1.2-1.5k updating the drive....and after that I still don't have niceties like a DRO on it.

    So I keep going back and forth on what my next move is. Sounds like I should invest the time to clean up the electrical gear and see if I am happy with it as is. I have lots of learning to do.

    -Walt

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    The first thing to check with a MG machine which has sat unused for quite a period and exhibits the MG starts and runs but the spindle doesn't turn is the exciter output voltage. Verify it is present and correct.

    You didn't state this was your situation but I've encountered it enough times to read between the lines.

    The feed shaft and lead screw are joined to the gearbox output by taper pinned joints. There is lots of information about how to undo them already posted in this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    Bill,

    Thank you very much for those suggestions. I have not gone after all those elements in the drive....mostly due to ignorance. Most of what I have put into the machine at this stage is cleaning and scraping. I started to take the apron apart but have gotten stuck where the feed drive meets up with the head end of the machine (to the left). I cannot figure out how the shaft is coupled to the feed drive.

    I guess I should spend the time to put in new brushes and clean things up. The idea of replacing the drive came from a couple thoughts:

    1. All the cool kids do it. Seriously...the threads I have read of those who moved over to VFD seem to express much joy in the new set up.
    2. The power draw out of the wall (via my RPC) seems like a lot. Whenever I start up the lathe the lights dim, etc.
    3. The size of the sparks coming out of the control box scare the life out of me. The actual box is missing its cover so maybe I would feel better if I just close that out.
    4. Not have to power up an RPC seems like it might be nice. That background noise of the motor spinning can be a bit annoying.

    This machine seems pretty whipped so I am not positive it is a good investment (to install a VFD and AC motor). Having put $3k into it I am hesitant to put another $1.2-1.5k updating the drive....and after that I still don't have niceties like a DRO on it.

    So I keep going back and forth on what my next move is. Sounds like I should invest the time to clean up the electrical gear and see if I am happy with it as is. I have lots of learning to do.

    -Walt
    Walt,

    Didn't mean to bust yer chops - I have a final-drive motor half-cleaned up been sitting most of a year, a second 10EE I haven't even started on yet.

    Point is, there are no easy or 'free' ways forward.

    Cleaning-up what you have is cheap in materials costs and - since it is near-as-dammit 100% per-OEM or easily restored to same - gets you access to the broadest base of same-same knowledge and most relevant expert support.

    Anyone who puts all the time, money, and sweat into a VFD conversion has a 'one-off' of their OWN devising. BOUND to "like it". Human nature.

    Lot of value in sticking with what is already 'ingineered' to work, proven to have done so, and already paid-for and well-understood, though.

    RPC?

    Jim Rozen shows one of the simplest and cheapest of 'pony start' rigs. Ignorant wood and barn-gate hinges, IIRC. But it JFW, and 'pony' start reduces the bang across the mains.

    I use a store-bought Phase-Craft for a brand-new Weg 10 HP. Mought still be a bit of flicker, but I can 'remote' the idler to where I don't have to listen to it. Annoys me too-damned-much, I can just plug in to the 10 HP Phase Perfect instead. BFD.

    EITHER are less hassle than starting the MEP803A's Diesel in 3-Phase mode. Quiet enough, but it stinks. Literally.



    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    I started to take the apron apart but have gotten stuck where the feed drive meets up with the head end of the machine (to the left). I cannot figure out how the shaft is coupled to the feed drive.
    The lead screw is simply secured with a taper pin, but you've probably already figured that out. The feed shaft is different.

    Assuming that your feed shaft has the overrun clutch on it (that 2" x 3" cylinder at the left end of the shaft), it is merely tedious but not difficult.

    Looking at the clutch assembly, you should see that the leftmost 0.5" part is a separate piece (look for the parting line). That piece is held to the larger lump by four tiny screws, coming in from the left side. On my 1950 10EE they were plain slotted screws, but some people have reported hex (Allen) socket screws, and I have retrofitted mine to socket screws.

    There is hardly any room to work in that area, so you will need a tiny right-angled screwdriver. Make sure the blade is in perfect condition because, if you bugger up the screw slots, you will be royally screwed. Another reason to use socket head screws. If you have socket head screws, you will have to grind down the short leg of an Allen wrench to fit into the limited space.

    Save your back by getting a chair to sit on while doing this. The first time it will probably take you close to an hour.

    When all four screws have been removed, you may be lucky and the internal spring will force the clutch apart. If not, a sharp rap to the right should do it. Unbolt the bearing carrier at the tailstock end, move the shaft collar (probably hiding behind the apron) to a convenient spot and tighten its screw. Then carefully tap to the right.

    The two halves of the clutch should have a witness mark (a scribed line on mine) and a dowel pin or two for alignment when you assemble it again. If not, make one.

    If you need photos, let me know and I'll post or email them. I can't easily do it today.

    Alan

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    Quote Originally Posted by CowDriver View Post
    If you need photos, let me know and I'll post or email them. I can't easily do it today.

    Alan
    Description was a superb one, thanks.

    Photos in addition would help lots of us if/as/when you/we/I/whomever next gets a round tuit.

    Bill

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    Here are the photos for the disassembly of the 10EE feed rod over-run clutch:

    Photo 1 shows the clutch at the left end of the feed rod, where it attaches to the gearbox. You can just see the screw heads on the left end. Also note the alignment mark on the two halves of the clutch body. The small hole towards the right end is for lubrication.



    img_8709c.jpg

    In the second photo you can see two of the four screws partially backed out. Mine are socket head cap screws, but the originals were slotted head. Note the extremely tight working space. You can only turn them a half-turn at a time, so it will take you a while.



    img_8711c.jpg

    In the third photo you see the four screws removed and the two sections partially separated. Note the witness line and dowel pin for alignment.



    img_8712c.jpg

    The next photo shows the two sections completely separated, exposing the drive gear which is taper-pinned to the shaft. It meshes with a "female" gear inside the right side of the clutch body. If the shaft is forced to the left by the collar (not shown), the gears disengage and stop the carriage motion.



    img_8714c.jpg

    The last photo shows both the lead screw and feed shaft completely separated from the gearbox. Note inside the feed shaft coupling attached to the gearbox: there is a bronze cup and spring which you must not lose. They are to hold the feed shaft male and female "gears" engaged under normal use.



    img_8723c.jpg

    If you want the original full-resolution photos, remove the letter suffix in the filename of the URL. No letter is 3264x2448, "a" is 1280x960, "b" is 800x600, and "c" is 512x384.

    If anything is unclear, or if I made a mistake, please let me know.

    Alan

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    All,

    Thank you very much for sharing your insights. I am feeling better about really diving into this project knowing there are so many friendly folks out there willing to share their experiences. Over the years, I have done my share of motorcycle rebuilds and some wood working equipment but I have never taken on a serious machine tool like this Monarch. I will probably get in over my head but what the heck as long as I am having fun at it, eh?

    Alan...thanks for your comments on the drive clutch. I think you are right about those screw heads being slotted. I have poked a right angle hex tool in there and nothing ever seems to grab. I think that was the point I got a little discouraged. So now I know I need to take my time and get those screws out of there.

    Bill...thanks for the comments regarding the MG drive. I have to admit I have not given the existing setup a fair shake as I thought for the most part folks ditch it for a VFD. I will spend the time to get things cleaned up and make a call from there. The little amount of money I have for this I would rather spend on a DRO or some other neat widget to make the machine nicer to use. I have access to a machine at work with a VFD and it is nice...but not sure it is the best place to put my time and money right now.

    One quick question....one of the posts mentioned checking the generator (exciter) voltages. Can you point me to where in the system I check that?

    I have included some pictures of where the machine sits right now. It looks like a complete mess but you should have seen it when I first got it (I am sure most here know what I am referring to). I have yet to really go after the motor compartment to clean things up. And as far as checking things over in the electrical workings...all I have done is replace the braking resistors. So I have plenty to do.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails file_000-1-.jpg   file_000.jpg   file_001.jpg   file_002.jpg   file_003.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    Bill...thanks for the comments regarding the MG drive. I have to admit I have not given the existing setup a fair shake as I thought for the most part folks ditch it for a VFD.
    Those who do VFD conversions almost always publish their 'project', as no two are 100% alike. Those who just run what the factory shipped are still the majority, though. Cheaper and easier, usually.



    I will spend the time to get things cleaned up and make a call from there. The little amount of money I have for this I would rather spend on a DRO or some other neat widget to make the machine nicer to use. I have access to a machine at work with a VFD and it is nice...but not sure it is the best place to put my time and money right now.
    "Neat widgets" do not (yet) include a DRO. I'd like one on the larger mill "someday, maybe", but can't really be bothered on a lathe.

    OTOH, 'nicer to use', AKA "very damned well tooled", I can dig:

    1 X 2 Jaw 6" manual Hardinge chuck,
    1 X 6" Magnetic chuck,
    1 X 6" 6-Jaw chuck,
    4 or 5 4-Jaw chucks, 4", 6" (several), 8",
    4 or 5 faceplates 5" to 11",
    2 X 5C collet closers,
    2 X 2J collet closers (Sjogren and nose-lever),
    1 X Jacobs 9XX RubberFlex,
    1 X Burnerd multisize,
    2 X ER 40,
    1 X ER 20,
    2 X #12 Jarno DC for HS,
    3 X #2 MT live, 2 X #2 MT dead centres for TS,
    1 X Ball-Bearing Jacobs chuck on #2 MT,
    4 or 5 4-Way toolposts ....

    And quite a bit of 5/8" tail Hardinge tooling for the hex turret yet to be mounted.

    Mind .. there ARE two 10EE to share that..

    But I ain't spent a dime on no steenkin' DRO! Yet.



    One quick question....one of the posts mentioned checking the generator (exciter) voltages. Can you point me to where in the system I check that?
    Spend the $75, call or email Monarch Lathe LP with your serial number, get back a manual with electrical schematics. Between those, and what is here on PM in the Monarch forum back a dozen-plus years, seek, find, take the time to understand.

    Most everything has a letter-number combination. Marked on a metal ring around the wire, marked on the terminal block it terminates to. Part of the reason for a CAREFUL cleanup. One that removes the crud, birdshit, mouse-turd and dead insects but NOT the markings.

    Exciter is 'nominal' 115 VDC, may see as much as 140 VDC.

    Armature at full-gallop is 'nominal' 230 VDC, 250-260 VDC is not uncommon. Armature can spike to 3 or 4 times nominal when reversing rapidly.

    And DEE CEE can be a tad more lethal than AC at any given voltage. There is no handy zero-cross and reversal to flip contracted muscles OFF.

    Sometimes called 'stick and fry', Dinosaur Current is.

    Keep that in mind when setting up to take measurements, lest you become "Rectumfried" as Peter named it..

    Best done cold, disconnected at the wall, good-quality clipleads attached, you back-off, look around to insure you are safe, THEN fire it up.

    Note, too, that one SHOULD be using high voltage probes. Those switching and reversal transients can bugger some meters or Oscilloscopes if not protected by the right sort of 'multiplier' probes.

    Bill

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    Default high voltage probes

    So you got my attention regarding the safety of checking HV DC. What are HV probes and for my simple little digital multi-meter where would I find them? The probes I have now do not clip or grab so I am guessing those options are just better from a safety POV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    So you got my attention regarding the safety of checking HV DC. What are HV probes and for my simple little digital multi-meter where would I find them? The probes I have now do not clip or grab so I am guessing those options are just better from a safety POV.
    Most modern meters of decent quality have much the same sockets, so probe 'kits' are near-as-dammit universal.

    For an 'O'Scope, one sticks with the scope as the more costly item. That said, a set of FOUR HV probes for mine cost about 60% of what I paid for the medium-eggplant-grade Rigol scope itself, new.

    If your meter isn't equipped for AT LEAST 600 V class working, (many economy ones top-out at 300 V) probably wiser to buy a new and better meter than diddle with just the leads.

    Nearly ALWAY need two meters if not three, anyway, ELSE your are perpetually juggling leads, taking notes, doing the math... and MISSING congruent Current / Voltage 'situations' that can waste a ton of time.

    Check TEquipment and others among the 'usual suspects'. I've been partial to Fluke from John's first DVM onward as my 'primary' instruments. None of his gear has ever let me down.

    I have also found it wise to 'backfill' with other goods to keep the overall costs in due bounds, especially for less-often used items, such as Dee Cee capable clamp-around Ammeters, & c. one might otherwise just not HAVE.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    I've been partial to Fluke from John's first DVM onward as my 'primary' instruments. None of his gear has ever let me down.
    "If you get the same reading twice in a row, it's a Fluke!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by CowDriver View Post
    "If you get the same reading twice in a row, it's a Fluke!"
    If I get the same mains-Voltage reading twice in a row, I am probably running off the Diesel with an 'austere' facility loading and total isolation from wotever mischief my neighbors on the same vault-pig are having at.



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