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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    Alan...thanks for your comments on the drive clutch. I think you are right about those screw heads being slotted. I have poked a right angle hex tool in there and nothing ever seems to grab. I think that was the point I got a little discouraged. So now I know I need to take my time and get those screws out of there.
    Please post a note here to let us know how it works out for you, especially if you encounter problems that I failed to anticipate. That's how we all learn from each other.

    Alan

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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    I've been partial to Fluke from John's first DVM onward as my 'primary' instruments. None of his gear has ever let me down.
    Fluke is definitely the standard of the industry in digital voltmeters and similar equipment.

    Whatever DVM you consider, make sure its highest DC voltage range is 1000 volts.

    That gives you confidence that the entire product is designed to handle such high voltages.

    Much modern test equipment is designed for use with solid-state electronics, with max voltages below 50 volts. Those usually have higher ranges so they can measure AC line voltages and derived DC, but commonly not higher than 300 volts.

    - Leigh

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    Default upgrading VOM

    All this talk about VOM has sort of convinced me the little hack digital VOM I have is not that great and certainly a bit questionable when it comes to measuring high voltage DC. Can anyone recommend a Fluke model that is thought to have the sort of options best suited for this? In the past, I mostly have used my VOM to check wall sockets and maybe the occasional power supply for some LED lighting. I found some models on Amazon by Fluke but am not really sure what I need to be looking for.

    BTW...I have noticed the pictures I posted are not that great when compared to others have embedded in their postings. The pictures I have are high resolution but somehow came through scaled back. Can someone advise how to post good quality images?

    Thanks for any help.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    I have noticed the pictures I posted are not that great when compared to others have embedded in their postings. The pictures I have are high resolution but somehow came through scaled back. Can someone advise how to post good quality images?
    Hi Walt,

    Download a copy of Irfanview from www.MajorGeeks.com (not from any other site).
    They provide a clean download. Other sites add all sorts of junkware.

    There are two files, the main program and the add-ons. Download both.
    Install the main program first, then the add-ons.

    Irfanview is by far the best photo manipulation program on the web, and it's free.

    Bring up the photo of interest and use the Resize function to change it.

    Do you have a website available where you can host the images?
    That's the best way to do it.
    Copy the image URL from that site, then use the [img][/img] tags to display it.

    - Leigh

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    ...

    One quick question....one of the posts mentioned checking the generator (exciter) voltages. Can you point me to where in the system I check that?
    ...
    I have a number of generator and exciter tests in this thread:
    10EE - No Exciter Voltage

    You don't need a fancy meter to check a motor/generator machine from end to end. And you and not dealing with "high voltage" DC. About 300 VDC is the highest voltage you will see. You can check everything just fine with an inexpensive meter.

    I've got one of these and it works just fine:
    It can directly measure up to 20A AC or DC, if needed.

    If you want something a little nicer, try one of these: Elenco ST-3030
    It adds the ability to measure DC current without placing the meter in series, via the clamp. Works great.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    Can anyone recommend a Fluke model that is thought to have the sort of options best suited for this?
    More than sixty years now, I have preferred a calibrated Oscilloscope as my 'meter', always owned one if not several. Harder for stuff to 'hide'. Fluke's I have are so rugged they are also OLD, no longer current models.

    Places to look are Fluke's OWN website, then also specialists, such as TEquipment, rather than Amazon.

    Invest some quality time doing research, consider your OTHER probable needs, too.

    20+ years of service is common for a Fluke product, so you may as well get what you are comfortable using, not a duplicate of a Starship control bridge that confuses more than it enlightens.

    The 87V would be nice, but not the only contender. Do you also work on automobiles, f'rinstance?

    Tight budget? See also Ideal. Not bad for the money. I have several.

    Feel free to ask again here before you make a final decision.

    You can always get a nicer, pricier one, later.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    20+ years of service is common for a Fluke product, so you may as well get what you are comfortable using, not a duplicate of a Starship control bridge that confuses more than it enlightens.
    I still regularly use my Fluke 77 that I bought new while I was in high school, it's still in calibration when I compare it to the 87 or the 189. To give some idea of the age: I'm about to retire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    I still regularly use my Fluke 77 that I bought new while I was in high school, it's still in calibration when I compare it to the 87 or the 189. To give some idea of the age: I'm about to retire.
    My oldest is a 77. Busted the back-prop on the gummi-case of it about ten years ago.
    Otherwise still A-OK.

    OTOH, I still have a functional RCA VoltOhmist VTVM up in the attic, plus a slew of Lafayette Radio, Triplett, Weston, Simpson VOM's, so I can't say the Fluke is the ONLY thing as dasn't easily break..

    That said, they ARE 'up in the attic', whilst the 77 was actually settin' ready-to-hand 'coz it has long-since become my most trusted go-to.



    Bill

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    Default MG Exciter

    First, thanks for the various comments regarding the VOM to use for trouble shooting. For now I guess I will stick with what I have until I find a problem. I am not very good with diagnosing electrical issues so I sort of avoid such things. As long as it is a switch and/or a light I can usually figure that out :0) I would have not even the first idea how to use an oscilloscope although it does sound pretty cool.

    Second, regarding figuring out my MG setup...I am really going to expose my ignorance here. I have chased down the threads Cal linked to and I just get more confused. Let me start here: I thought the Exciter generated the power for the stator in the DC motor and the generator powered the rotor (via brushes)...is this right? My limited understanding is that by varying both the static and rotating fields in the DC motor a more broad torque curve is achieved. If this is not right, could someone explain (in the simplest terms possible) what the difference between the two is?

    The threads keep referring to a shunt field and a series field. What is this? It looks like there are coils in the exciter that have some sort of self limiting/ self supporting thing going on to stabilize current flow in low or high power scenarios??? There also seems to be long or short shunts...not sure what that is either.

    Sorry for the rambling here...I am just pretty confused and not sure what I am looking at.

    On a brighter note I ordered a manual from Monarch that is specific to the serial number I have. So at least I should have a road map soon that tells me the exact specifics in the machine...even if I have no idea what it all means :0)

    Thanks for any help and understanding.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    First, thanks for the various comments regarding the VOM to use for trouble shooting. For now I guess I will stick with what I have until I find a problem.
    It isn't about legendary-reliable brand names and 40-year service lives. You need the higher voltage class of DVM for safer working. 600 V at least, 1000 V better-yet, even if it is but very average quality. Under $100 for-sure, under $50, probably if you but look for 'em.

    I am not very good with diagnosing electrical issues so I sort of avoid such things. As long as it is a switch and/or a light I can usually figure that out :0) I would have not even the first idea how to use an oscilloscope although it does sound pretty cool.

    Second, regarding figuring out my MG setup...I am really going to expose my ignorance here. I have chased down the threads Cal linked to and I just get more confused.
    As electron-pushing goes, an MG, 10EE or any other, is a dirt-simple system. Wise investment to go and study-up until it is far LESS 'confusing', but rocket insemination it is not. Somewhere around eighth to tenth grade science & physics covered it all. You just didn't have a need to delve into it at the time.

    Key point is you do NOT need to 'know the math' nor any fraction of what it would take to DESIGN the bugger from scratch, nor even to alter it.

    You need to know only enough to understand where and how to take measurements safely. And keep yer fingers out of the arcy-sparky and shocky bits, of course.

    Expertise as to what to DO about what the measurements reveal is right here, and 'free' as-in beer.

    The better you do yer basic homework, the easier it is for others to help, and the more help you'll get, faster, better, more easily put to work.


    Bill

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    Default Figuring things out

    I asked a motor guy at work about the set up in a Monarch lathe and I get a lot of "I don't know why they did it that way". I guess this is a little bit of history research as well as figuring out why things were designed this way.

    So I am wondering if there is a resource out there that can explain what the parts do in a AC motor-Exciter-Generator-DC Motor do. I will continue to hunt through the PM threads to figure out what I don't understand.

    Last night I started poking around and out of nowhere the spindle started working. I have no idea what changed. After reading one of the manuals on the PM site it sounds like the brushes in the exciter or generator need looking after. So my next job is figure out how to get to the brushes on these parts and take a look.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    I asked a motor guy at work about the set up in a Monarch lathe and I get a lot of "I don't know why they did it that way". I guess this is a little bit of history research as well as figuring out why things were designed this way.
    If you were to talk to an old-time elevator repairman, he would immediately understand it and then proceed to bend you ear about the marvels of the Ward-Leonard system. Yes, there is a lot of history behind the 10EE DC drive, and good reasons for everything they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    So I am wondering if there is a resource out there that can explain what the parts do in a AC motor-Exciter-Generator-DC Motor do. I will continue to hunt through the PM threads to figure out what I don't understand.
    Just start reading the PM threads; they will tell you more than you ever dreamed possible about DC drives. The motor-generator was the earliest, and probably the easiest to understand. All the later (WIAD, Modular, etc.) versions did was replace the motor-generator with electronics.

    In a nutshell, you start off at low RPM with full (~115) volts applied to the drive motor field winding, and low voltage applied to the armature. As you increase the voltage (up to 250 volts) to the armature, the speed increases up to the "rated" speed (~1200 RPM) of the motor. Then, in what seems counter-intuitive, you decrease the voltage to the field winding (from ~115 down to 50 or so), which runs the motor up to its maximum speed. All this is done with those big fat reostats with their special windings.

    The armature voltage is supplied by the main part of the motor-generator, while the (lower) field voltage is supplied by the separate exciter (generator).

    Since I am still a novice at this, I probably got something wrong in this explanation, but it should be close to how it works. I'm sure the more experienced folks will chime in with corrections and additional information.

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    Default Summary of 10ee motor/generator drive system operation

    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    I asked a motor guy at work about the set up in a Monarch lathe and I get a lot of "I don't know why they did it that way". I guess this is a little bit of history research as well as figuring out why things were designed this way.

    So I am wondering if there is a resource out there that can explain what the parts do in a AC motor-Exciter-Generator-DC Motor do. I will continue to hunt through the PM threads to figure out what I don't understand.

    Last night I started poking around and out of nowhere the spindle started working. I have no idea what changed. After reading one of the manuals on the PM site it sounds like the brushes in the exciter or generator need looking after. So my next job is figure out how to get to the brushes on these parts and take a look.

    -Walt
    Walt,

    Hereís a summary of how things work: (Iíll generalize a bit and not include some of the less common versions of the drive, such as the inline exciter drive.)

    As you probably know, the DC or spindle motor drives the spindle via a back-gear unit and a belt (or belts). The motor operates in two modes: full field and field weakened. In full-field mode, the motorís field is at 100% (115 VDC) and the armature voltage is varied (0 to 230 VDC), allowing for variable speed operation up to the motorís ďbase speedĒ of 690 RPM. In field-weakend mode, the armature voltage is at 100% (230 VDC) and the field voltage is reduced from 115 VDC to about 40 VDC. Weakening the field causes the motor to speed up, increasing from 690 RPM to 2400 RPM. Various drive pulley combinations result in maximum spindle speeds of 2500 to 4000 RPM, depending on what the customer ordered.

    The DC exciter, which is the belt-driven unit that sits on top of the motor/generator (MG) case, is a self-excited DC generator. Itís self-excited because it does not need an external voltage source to power its field. It has both series and shunt (parallel) field windings. The series field winding causes the exciterís field excitation to increase as load increases, so that it does a pretty good job of maintaining output voltage at 115 VDC. The exciter provides power to run the relays in the DC control panel and powers both the DC generatorís and spindle motorís fields.

    The big tube on the bottom of the MG houses both the AC motor and the DC generator. The AC motor simply drives the generator and (via a belt) the exciter at a constant 3450 RPM. The DC generator provides the voltage that powers the spindle motorís armature.

    The things work the variable speed magic are the big pair of Ohmite rheostats, located above the DC control panel. One of the rheostats controls the voltage to the generatorís field and the other controls the voltage to the spindle motorís field. Both rheostats are wound such that their resistance only changes over half of their windings. The ďgeneratorĒ rheostatís resistance varies during the low-speed half of the speed-controlís range and the ďmotorĒ rheostatís resistance varies over the high-speed half of the range.

    The generator rheostat increases the voltage to the generatorís series field winding as the speed control is turned up from minimum. As the generatorís field voltage increases, so does its output voltage, which is fed to the spindle motorís armature and in turn causes the motor to speed up. After the speed control reaches mid way, the generator rheostatís resistance drops to zero and the output of the exciter is fed directly to the generatorís shunt field, causing the generator to put out full voltage (230 VDC) to the spindle motorís armature.

    The motor rheostat is connected in series between the exciter and the spindle motorís shunt field. In the lower, full-field half of the speed-controlís range, it has zero resistance, providing full exciter voltage to the spindle motorís field. In the upper half of the range, the field-weakening half, the resistance increases, reducing the voltage to the motorís field, weakening the field and causing the motor to speed up.

    Thatís it in a nutshell. I have much of this information, explained a bit differently, in this post:
    Monarch 10EE Motor Generator Troubleshooting

    Let me know if any of that isnít clear.

    Cal

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    Default Help figuring things out

    Cal,

    Can't tell you how much I appreciate the explanation you gave. Although I had to read it 3 or more times it is helping to clear up my understanding of things. I drug out one of my textbooks from back in the day and that also is helping me grasp things. The book has a nice graph that shows the speed-torque curve for a series, shunt and combination field configuration. I will post it when I get a chance.

    Now that I have some basic understanding of this thing it does make me wonder why so many folks are so quick to yank it out and replace it with a VFD AC motor combination. I guess there are no brushes to maintain and it draws less power. But for a hobbyist with limited resources to throw around it seems that if the existing system can just be cleaned up it is a lot cheaper to get working.

    Any who...just sharing my thoughts. Thank you again for your help. Now I need to go back and reread everything another 4 or 5 times. :0)

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    Now that I have some basic understanding of this thing it does make me wonder why so many folks are so quick to yank it out and replace it with a VFD AC motor combination. I guess there are no brushes to maintain and it draws less power. But for a hobbyist with limited resources to throw around it seems that if the existing system can just be cleaned up it is a lot cheaper to get working.
    Thank you, Walt.

    I rather suspect you 'made his day' for Cal. He's been helping lots of folks for lots of years and not always gotten the recognition his dedicated effort deserves.



    As to "why convert"?

    Yes, the 'waste' of energy of an MG - especially when one adds an RPC or the cost of a Phase-Perfect to drive it - goes against the 'green' grain, even if in the long-run the actual power wasted isn't all that expensive.

    The major driver for VFD conversions that I see is that the folks doing the work are Machinists.

    Sourcing metal and fasteners, a bearing or three if need be, taking and transferring accurate measurements to fab a gearbox mount, alter motor mounts for a Black Max, 'plumbing' it to a VFD?

    All familiar work. Not that different from what one has done for years and tens of years for Day Job and customers and OTHER Machine Tools.

    The VFD itself is basically a 'box' one takes out of another box, optionally houses in yet-another 'box'.

    Someone else has done all the electron-pushing and tested it. Even warranted it with enduring guarantees, 'present day' ones, not 75 years out of date. With a few settings - even those mostly 'default' - it "JFW".

    It isn't that a Machinist with limited electrical experience cannot come to understand a 10EE - MG easiest of all. For-sure they are intelligent enough folks.

    It's that largely he cannot be bothered to start. Not his job. Not his area of interest.

    So it becomes the (ex) Power Company, the (former) Electronics gurus, and even the odd (retired) Telco guy that KEEPS the legacy systems.

    The very ones that could most easily do something ELSE - but keep the MG, WiaD, Modular drives... because ....they are simple, robust, and - most of all - 'fit for their purpose'.



    Thanks for hanging in there.

    It does get easier. Eventually it is even 'fun' again.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    Now that I have some basic understanding of this thing it does make me wonder why so many folks are so quick to yank it out and replace it with a VFD AC motor combination.
    Hi Walt,

    One major factor is that replacement parts are becoming scarce, as are the technicians who know how to work on these high-voltage systems.

    The C16J tubes in particular are no longer being manufactured. They were never made in huge quantities, so they're rare and expensive.

    - Leigh

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    Default How taper attachment works

    To All,

    Thanks for the encouragement. Figuring this thing out has been "a thing" and for a while it did seem I was getting more questions than answers. But for now I think I have better footing on why this thing is as it is. A fiend of mine has a South Bend Heavy 10 and at times I envy the simplicity of that thing. In the long run I think I will be more content with the 10EE once I get things cleaned up.

    Here is an off topic question: How does a taper attachment work on a 10EE? I dont have one but am curious just how it does its thing. Does it simply "shove" the cross feed table and back drive the screw? Does the operator disengage the nut somehow? Does the attachment somehow drive the screw? Just curious.

    -Walt

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    Quote Originally Posted by MachinistBlue View Post
    How does a taper attachment work on a 10EE? I dont have one but am curious just how it does its thing. Does it simply "shove" the cross feed table and back drive the screw? Does the operator disengage the nut somehow? Does the attachment somehow drive the screw? Just curious.

    -Walt
    "Very damned seldom" may be the most truthful answer. There've been a few times it has been queried and very few who DO have them actually use them at all often. Many 10EE that the records show as having left the factory WITH a TA, no longer have them.

    I'm at the 50% mark. One 10EE has (most of) its original TA, the other not.

    No, they do not back-wind an Acme leadscrew. Those have pitches chosen to be highly resistant to that, ELSE it would be hard to hold a diameter in ordinary turning.

    Leaving aside those powered by NC/CNC, or a steel-band or taut cable wrapped around a drum ON the feedscrew shaft:

    - One 'general class' relies on disconnection of the cross slide from the follower nut, connection 'instead' to the TA slider. And then the reverse. Simple. Effective. Strong. No 'special' components. Easiest to DIY.

    - Another uses a 'telescoping' leadscrew. SB did that now and then. More convenient to use/not, but leadscrew is not as strong.

    A further filip is that some TA also have gears to alter the effective taper by more than the angle of the guide bar alone.

    Examples of all are in PM with fotos. Seek and ye shall be visually entertained.



    Meanwhile, save yer money...

    Bill

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    Let's see if I remember..
    The TA has a shallow "U" crossection slide bar in which a [4] bearing follower rides and pushes the crossfeed in or out. The follower is fixed to the bed via a rod at the back, which is held by a bed clamp. The crosslide is unlocked to allow free movement and is attached to the follower. The follower bearings are adjustable to take up the play in the slide. The taper is set by a micrometer screw. There is also a sight glass/magnifier to view an angle scale engraved on the front part of the slide. Since there's going to be backlash, it should be used in one direction only. I've used mine a few times and it's handy to have. I have also been thinking about using it as a tracer or driving the crossfeed with CNC, with the addition of a saddle drive also.

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    The taper attachment moves a sliding bar which holds the anchor for the telescoping cross slide screw. I use mine quite regularly actually - couple of times in the last month. It's quite limited in the angle you can achieve, it's just below 8 degrees IIRC.,


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