Resurrecting 1960 10EE with 460V Sabina drive
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    Default Resurrecting 1960 10EE with 460V Sabina drive

    Hi all,
    Have coveted a 10EE - and one has come available within driving distance.
    It's been pretty well used... but it's been "rebuilt" along the way (what ever that may mean), and the asking price is less than $3K.
    Would be used in my garage for general fabrication and 2stroke tuning.
    Hobby level user.

    Have done some reading to try and get up to speed.
    Hoping to get some insights here - particularly on the drive - which has been updated.

    Here are some details.
    - 1960 model - came with taper attachment but now gone.
    - Carriage moves smoothly and ways show little wear - though there are some ugly marks on one of the flats that appear to be from the carriage running over something. Looks like the wipers did their job though - damage is on a non weight bearing area? (pics below).
    - Cross slide has nearly 3/4 turn of back lash - that will drive me crazy - so it would need to be addressed.
    - No run out to speak of on spindle - thought I had filmed - but apparently you have to hit go on the camera to make it work...
    - Some tooling - but it's missing its taper attachment and there is no collet chuck or steady rest - so no gold mine here.
    - Paint - looks hard used.
    - *All handles and functions seem to operate - except TPI lock out which I couldn't get to disengage. The machine itself feels smooth and powerful.
    - Back gear, forward, reverse, spindle dynamic braking (I think its referred to that) all seem to work smoothly. Some video below.

    So the machine looks well used, but seems to function pretty nicely across the board. Here are a couple things I was hoping to get some opinions/insights on:

    1. Looks to have been updated with 3 phase Sabina system. Operates much more quietly than expected. However - it uses a rotary converter that comes with the purchase. What's the word on these systems - and is it the case that it won't work with a VFD?
    2. I was unable to unlock the TPI adjustment dial. You can see in the picture and video that the handle for locking has the knob broken off. Not sure if I was doing something wrong - found knob end and inserted it into the handle, but couldn't actuate any type of release to move it = no way to turn the TPI adjustment. How do these operate?
    3. Had a tag on it showing it had been "rebuilt" in 1972. That seems too early for the Sabina controls though? It may account for how clean the inside of the machine looked, and the otherwise smooth operation of the controls.
    4. Finally - have my eye on a 1944 round dial model as well - are there any tradeoffs I should be aware of that make one more desirable than the other?

    Thanks for taking the time to look - all feedback welcome.

    Apologies for any pictures doubling/spun.
    Wrestled with it but could not delete/alter


    Video of it running here: https://youtu.be/TgQ83p3KKxo
    And here in back gear: https://youtu.be/oPm-2celdEw

    screen-shot-2021-08-03-8.23.51-am.jpgscreen-shot-2021-08-03-8.24.12-am.jpgscreen-shot-2021-08-03-8.24.53-am.jpgimg_3476.jpgimg_3472.jpgscreen-shot-2021-08-03-8.23.51-am.jpgscreen-shot-2021-08-03-8.24.12-am.jpgscreen-shot-2021-08-03-8.24.53-am.jpgimg_3476.jpgimg_3472.jpg
    Last edited by Cal Haines; 09-12-2021 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Title changed at OP's request

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    under $3k seems like a good deal to me. I would buy it.
    The broken knob has to be pulled out to make the lever release. So you pull on the knob and that disengages the lever. There is a tapered pin that holds that lever on its shaft. I think
    There also may be a set screw on the very bottom of the lever that needs to be loosened. You may be able remove the lever to get at the broken piece and weld the knob back together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Hi all,
    Have coveted a 10EE - and one has come available within driving distance.
    It's been pretty well used... but it's been "rebuilt" along the way (what ever that may mean), and the asking price is less than $3K.
    Would be used in my garage for general fabrication and 2stroke tuning.
    Hobby level user.

    Have done some reading to try and get up to speed.
    Hoping to get some insights here - particularly on the drive - which has been updated.

    Here are some details.
    - 1960 model - came with taper attachment but now gone.
    - Carriage moves smoothly and ways show little wear - though there are some ugly marks on one of the flats that appear to be from the carriage running over something. Looks like the wipers did their job though - damage is on a non weight bearing area? (pics below).
    - Cross slide has nearly 3/4 turn of back lash - that will drive me crazy - so it would need to be addressed.
    - No run out to speak of on spindle - thought I had filmed - but apparently you have to hit go on the camera to make it work...
    - Some tooling - but it's missing its taper attachment and there is no collet chuck or steady rest - so no gold mine here.
    - Paint - looks hard used.
    - *All handles and functions seem to operate - except TPI lock out which I couldn't get to disengage. The machine itself feels smooth and powerful.
    - Back gear, forward, reverse, spindle dynamic braking (I think its referred to that) all seem to work smoothly. Some video below.

    So the machine looks well used, but seems to function pretty nicely across the board. Here are a couple things I was hoping to get some opinions/insights on:

    1. Looks to have been updated with 3 phase Sabina system. Operates much more quietly than expected. However - it uses a rotary converter that comes with the purchase. What's the word on these systems - and is it the case that it won't work with a VFD?
    2. I was unable to unlock the TPI adjustment dial. You can see in the picture and video that the handle for locking has the knob broken off. Not sure if I was doing something wrong - found knob end and inserted it into the handle, but couldn't actuate any type of release to move it = no way to turn the TPI adjustment. How do these operate?
    3. Had a tag on it showing it had been "rebuilt" in 1972. That seems too early for the Sabina controls though? It may account for how clean the inside of the machine looked, and the otherwise smooth operation of the controls.
    4. Finally - have my eye on a 1944 round dial model as well - are there any tradeoffs I should be aware of that make one more desirable than the other?

    Thanks for taking the time to look - all feedback welcome.

    Apologies for any pictures doubling/spun.
    Wrestled with it but could not delete/alter


    Video of it running here: https://youtu.be/TgQ83p3KKxo
    And here in back gear: https://youtu.be/oPm-2celdEw

    screen-shot-2021-08-03-8.23.51-am.jpgscreen-shot-2021-08-03-8.24.12-am.jpgscreen-shot-2021-08-03-8.24.53-am.jpgimg_3476.jpgimg_3472.jpgscreen-shot-2021-08-03-8.23.51-am.jpgscreen-shot-2021-08-03-8.24.12-am.jpgscreen-shot-2021-08-03-8.24.53-am.jpgimg_3476.jpgimg_3472.jpg
    First: Thank you for those videos!

    Second: Grab it!

    Sabina built good gear . for their era.

    "Obsolete is not the same as useless." ...or so I try to keep my wife convinced!

    That it is still in working order and runs off an RPC is a big plus.
    No immediate emergency need to alter that.

    Photos of the final drive motor, please. Both ends.

    I think you have tachogenerator feedback. The mechanical tacho needle bounce is exactly that. The sound track confirms that the spindle is actually NOT "hunting", but going very much more smoothly to commanded RPM than the mechanical tacho needle reflects.

    An external third-party electronic tacho can be added, temporary of permanently, and will work in reverse as well as forward. No need to alter the OEM tacho to do that.

    More later... let's first confirm which motor you have.

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    Sounds like a good deal, a 10EE and roto phase for less than 3 grand.
    Better jump on it before it's gone.
    Does the tooling come with it ?

    Hal

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    Quote Originally Posted by lectrician1 View Post
    under $3k seems like a good deal to me. I would buy it.
    The broken knob has to be pulled out to make the lever release. So you pull on the knob and that disengages the lever. There is a tapered pin that holds that lever on its shaft. I think
    There also may be a set screw on the very bottom of the lever that needs to be loosened. You may be able remove the lever to get at the broken piece and weld the knob back together.
    . Thanks! Ok - I saw the brass rod plunger in the handle - but didnt have a tool to pull it up with/ didn't want to do any damage with my limited knowledge.

    First: Thank you for those videos!
    Second: Grab it!
    Sabina built good gear . for their era.
    "Obsolete is not the same as useless." ...or so I try to keep my wife convinced!
    That it is still in working order and runs off an RPC is a big plus.
    No immediate emergency need to alter that.
    Photos of the final drive motor, please. Both ends.
    Thanks. Was bracing for a run for your life response on the 3 phase rotary. Just lack the experience to know. Very helpful. Figured the videos would give a better sense - and saw your comment on the bouncing tach. I agree - it seems smooth in actual operation regarding RPM change - but the tach instrument itself seems to get "thrown" past the number - and bounces back to the right speed.img_3487-4.jpgimg_3514-2.jpg

    Sounds like a good deal, a 10EE and roto phase for less than 3 grand.
    Better jump on it before it's gone.
    Does the tooling come with it ?
    . There are about 20 tool holders, and a handful of other items. Pic below. The two big missing ones are the steady rest and taper attachment.
    img_3465-2.jpg img_3466-3.jpg img_3485.jpgimg_3487-4.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    . Thanks! Ok - I saw the brass rod plunger in the handle - but didnt have a tool to pull it up with/ didn't want to do any damage with my limited knowledge.
    PHHT! Good on yah for a healthy attitude .. "moral" even!

    But .. gotta chuckle. Over in another thread some other Pilgrim is refurbing a 10EE "ELSR" operating handle.

    Good on him for doing it as right as can be!

    MY '44 came with NO handle. Last used "apparently" with a set of vise-grips instead?

    Hey!!!. I'm not that RUDE!

    MY vise grips ... have a hunk of PolyVee belting cut-off under their nasty jaws!

    I'll fab a proper handle "some day".


    Thanks. Was bracing for a run for your life response on the 3 phase rotary.
    RPC is a decent make. They are easy to fix.

    Drive is a surprise to still be sweet as old as it is. Even so.. AFAIK Sabina (or a generational successor) is still in business. So, too Joliet, Saf-tronis, and/or a few others. Or indy shops as still repair them.

    They were ALL small specialist builders into "niche" markets back THEN. They still ARE.

    Problem is... that present-day, fully-burdened labour costs for an expert technician.. start at about US$ 1,500 ... just to get the goods under his nose.

    Add $2,000 for Travel & Lodging if that were to be a Field Engineer visit.. much the same as the guys dependent on CNC critters JF deal with every year to keep their spindles turning.

    But those spindles are earning revenue.

    So YOUR options.. are:

    Either to become "board level repair" capable of troubleshooting - which HAS to include ability to reverse-engineer workarounds for no longer common PARTS..

    ELSE.. buy a MASS-produced "packaged" DC Drive. Because it is faster and cheaper to do it that way. "Better" is a freebie, given the old one is "good ENOUGH".

    That said, "Run what you GOT" ..... until it breaks ...is cheaper, YET!

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    Ya, you better sneak off with that while you can...

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    With all the tooling and roto phase, it sounds like a great deal. The toolholders are around $10.00 each.
    Monarch sometimes uses 2 set screws in on hole, acting like a jam nut.

    Hal

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    Thanks thermite.
    Do my best to treat stuff like I'd like it to be treated.
    Owner of the machine wasn't actually there.
    After speaking on the phone - he was good enough to have a neighbor let me in while he travels - so I was pretty keen to do no harm...

    ELSE.. buy a MASS-produced "packaged" DC Drive. Because it is faster and cheaper to do it that way.
    Can you give me an example of one of these?

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    Thanks Hal. Agreed. Don't mind the beat up paint. Prior industrial owner was an aeronautics company - fairly famous one. Suspect they would have been the ones to have had it "rebuilt" in 1972.

    Can anyone help identify what era the updated Sabina controls are from? Those appear more 1980's to my eye than '72img_3494-2.jpgimg_3472.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Thanks thermite.
    Do my best to treat stuff like I'd like it to be treated.
    Owner of the machine wasn't actually there.
    After speaking on the phone - he was good enough to have a neighbor let me in while he travels - so I was pretty keen to do no harm...


    Can you give me an example of one of these?
    PM can:

    Parker/Eurotherm 514C/507 4Q SSD DC Retrofit into 1961 10EE Modular

    That was tested first on the 3 HP "large frame" Reliance (MG-era) then on a 3 HP "small frame" Reliance (WiaD and first-gen DoD/Big Corp refurb era).

    I had no 5 HP of the type Monarch used, so Mark did all that himself, discovering some new and useful stuff along the way.

    I'd call it a "universal donor" as solutions go for 10EE with no OEM DC Drive to restore.

    But by no means the ONLY 'current production" DC Drive out there. Most of the same LARGE firms that make VFD also make DC Drives.

    Grab a copy of all that stuff and save it locally as you find it.

    Anything not blacksmith-simple that involves maths or science tends to be attacked.... then made to vanish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Thanks Hal. Agreed. Don't mind the beat up paint. Prior industrial owner was an aeronautics company - fairly famous one. Suspect they would have been the ones to have had it "rebuilt" in 1972.

    Can anyone help identify what era the updated Sabina controls are from? Those appear more 1980's to my eye than '72img_3494-2.jpgimg_3472.jpg
    Ask the maker. They started in 1969 and are still here:

    Sabina - Motors, Controls, Custom Systems, Service & Repair

    Not clear what relationship . maybe ZERO - that this other outfit has to the "Joliet" who also made DC Drives for Monarchs "back in the day", but they have published a more easily "grokked" bird's eye over view of DC Drives in general than many:

    DC Drive Fundamentals

    Well worth a read!

    Note that IR sensing is the common inbuilt regulation scheme, and works rather well.

    - 100% load and Torque regulation are typically held to 2% over a maximum useful 20:1 range.

    Adding tacho feedback significantly improves portions of that:

    - 100% load regulation can be held to One TENTH of one percent over a 100:1 useful range!

    You can now see why I asked if your one had a tachogenerator mounted to the arse-end of the final drive motor!

    Last edited by thermite; 08-04-2021 at 12:00 AM.

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    Did wonder a bit about the pictures of both ends...
    Had not even considered shooting a picture of the back of the motor when I was inspecting.
    Now makes more sense.

    Still drinking from the hydrant - but depth of understanding is on steep climb.
    Tacho gives feedback loop - and keeps DC motor at constant output even under load.
    Gold standard for solid state retrofit.

    Thanks for the links.
    -CM

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Tacho gives feedback loop - and keeps DC motor at constant output even under load.
    Gold standard for solid state retrofit.
    It is. And it is not.

    We (everettengr and I) had some tachos around. So it was tried.

    WHILE .. essentially ALL modern DC Drives can utilize a Tachogenerator's analog signal. Even mass-market KB-Penta economy models.

    They just jumper for it to take the place of their already on-PCB "IR" sensing circuitry.

    Most also have jumpers for how many Volts/1000 RPM a(ny) given tachogenerator outputs.

    The catch - for a 10EE.. is that the MAJORITY of its RPM band lies in the "Field Weakened" range.

    So.. for this to work, one needs a DC Drive that was built to control BOTH the Field and the Armature. Has either an onboard/inbuilt or a plug-in option PCB for "Field Regulation" IOW.

    MOST 3-Phase-only DC Drives have had these for 20 or more years.
    FEW single-phase-only DC Drives have"Field REGULATOR" circuitry.

    NB: Eurotherm had a second-black-box product. The manual for it is highly informative as to how it all WORKS.

    The earlier ones? Well .. that's part of why Monarch and the rebuilders went to speciality drive makers.

    They needed drives "tunable" to match the characteristics of their lathes.

    NOWADAYS... one can "just buy them" and "commission" AKA "configure" a commodity 3-Phase-only DC drive.

    For SIMPLER goods, OTOH? Parker-SSD 514C-16 or -32?

    It is BLIND to the very existence of Field Weakening.
    We "hand-fly" that integration, ELSE use ganged potentiometers.

    Sooo. .when Mark got the 5 HP with Tacho feedback up to speed and started weakening the field?

    His SSD 514C's hybrid Analog/Digital "logic" said to itself, the equivalent of:

    "WTH? SOMETHING is over-running the RPM on MY motor!"

    And kept cranking the ARMATURE Voltage DOWN.. so the motor would NOT speed-up as the Field was weakened!

    Predictably, available Torque got weaker and weaker!


    Shorter answer:

    Not ALL DC Drives can put a tacho to effective USE in the 10EE's type of need.

    Not even if they are superb performers at the use of it OTHER THAN when the Field is intentionally weakened.

    == One has to be selective as to WHICH drive.

    "Field Regulator circuit".

    Not just "Field power".

    The plus?

    Your one "seems to" already have that.

    Don't do anything rash.

    Just yet!

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    Im concerned about the 3/4 turn of backlash in cross-slide.

    The cross-screw+ nut is north of $1k from Monarch Sidney and that was 5 years ago. Possibly other sources are out there.

    The lathe can be run as-is but that particular accrual of backlash/lost motion has caused me more turning problems than all others I can think of.

    I think that broken lever is for the "tumbler" which lets you take 1 gear out of sync that allows the others to be sync'd manually and then you jog the spindle abit while putting very light pressure on the lever and it all drops into mesh ready to work. Without that enabled it would be a tricky & slow path of constantly moving the spindle by hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt_isserstedt View Post
    Im concerned about the 3/4 turn of backlash in cross-slide.

    The cross-screw+ nut is north of $1k from Monarch Sidney and that was 5 years ago. Possibly other sources are out there.
    For about ten years there have usually been at least two sources listing them on eBay.

    IIRC, member Brian Miller also makes them to order. I trust his work to be of superb quality.

    We also have "a few" threads where 10EE or "similar" Monarch owners have done their own. More-yet on other lathes. Details differ, but it is the same basic tasking.

    Given that precision threaded stock can be had, available Bronze nuts can be modified, and the threading is not the WORST EVER to do, either?

    It is more nuisance than any sort of "show-stopper".

    The number-one concern on an "unknown, so far" used 10EE candidate should really be those costly spindle bearings.

    All OTHER wear one can work around or correct incrementally with more sweat and tears than money or blood in singular large chunks.

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    Well - this is going to be an interesting post... (see below)

    Quote Originally Posted by matt_isserstedt View Post
    Im concerned about the 3/4 turn of backlash in cross-slide.

    The cross-screw+ nut is north of $1k from Monarch Sidney and that was 5 years ago. Possibly other sources are out there.

    The lathe can be run as-is but that particular accrual of backlash/lost motion has caused me more turning problems than all others I can think of.

    I think that broken lever is for the "tumbler" which lets you take 1 gear out of sync that allows the others to be sync'd manually and then you jog the spindle abit while putting very light pressure on the lever and it all drops into mesh ready to work. Without that enabled it would be a tricky & slow path of constantly moving the spindle by hand.
    Thanks for weighing in! I am seeing the nut being offered on Ebay for about $100 - but not sure about the screw - so the combination may still be an expensive fix. That backlash does look like a pain in the arse for operation - and will be something I will want to address. Don't mind a little blood and sweat - though I would likely source the repair parts rather than try and fabricate.

    Hmm. Ive seen video of someone operating a similar machine - where that handle was required to be lowered prior to adjusting the nob on the square dial itself for TPI. Are you saying something different? (When I attempted to adjust that nob - it was locked - suggesting that the broken handle was in fact the locking mechanism).

    Don't do anything rash.

    Just yet!
    . You mean like buy a second machine at the same time I buy this one having never owned a 10EE?
    I had already made an offer on a round dial - and was waiting to get information on it when the square dial popped back up. It's complicated... However - there is a round dial (apple of my eye) for a very enticing price of $3500. 1944. Fully tooled - steady rest, collet chuck, 3 and 4 jaw chuck, taper attachment. Some kind of power conversion to 220 single phase using original motor - but I haven't been able to ascertain exactly what. Price was right - so I basically just said yes. No - Im not kidding... These things are addictive. 039c9a4c-d3cd-49ba-a42d-9848948639b2.jpg05d99cd7-985b-4e65-99f4-777ab962dd8a.jpg.

    Anyone want to play the here is what I see - here is what to look for - game with this one as well?

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Some kind of power conversion to 220 single phase using original motor - but I haven't been able to ascertain exactly what.
    It COULD be.. a "good" conversion. With the current moderator here actively hostile to anything newer or more complicated than elemental Iron, Copper, and Carbon, and pre-1891 at that? Serious discussion of those has to take place clandestinely .. "out of public sight!"



    But even if sub-optimal?

    So long as the original - and precious - DC motor (just try pricing current DC motors of similar class!!!) is still THERE.. an IMPROVED conversion . if/as/when even NEEDED (it might not be..) .. is dirt-simple... and not terribly costly, either.


    Price was right - so I basically just said yes. No - Im not kidding... These things are addictive. 039c9a4c-d3cd-49ba-a42d-9848948639b2.jpg05d99cd7-985b-4e65-99f4-777ab962dd8a.jpg.
    No s**t?

    Why do I have a '42 AND a '44?




    Anyone want to play the here is what I see - here is what to look for - game with this one as well?
    Need to see the INNARDS!

    The DC Drive I can usually ID by looks, I have so many .. and far more manuals for those I do not have.

    Externally?

    It's a 10EE!!!


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    I've seen and heard it run - on FaceTime. It was silent in reverse. I can hear a little whine in forward - but no roar or clicking. Owner says it is the original DC motor - but of course - that remains to be confirmed. Waiting on pictures of innards. Will post.

    Ways are good and handles move nicely. Having hunted for these - it seemed like suddenly it was raining good deals. Tooling that comes with this one is nice and complete. Tough to say no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    I've seen and heard it run - on FaceTime. It was silent in reverse. I can hear a little whine in forward - but no roar or clicking. Owner says it is the original DC motor - but of course - that remains to be confirmed. Waiting on pictures of innards. Will post.

    Ways are good and handles move nicely. Having hunted for these - it seemed like suddenly it was raining good deals. Tooling that comes with this one is nice and complete. Tough to say no.
    Really good price for proven running-order and off 220 1-P.

    The tooling is a NICE bonus.

    I have LOTS of workholding and tooling NOW, but ..

    - My '42 came naked, the TS repaired, no TA, no toolpost nor even a center.

    - My '44 still had its TA, in need of repair - one of vettebob's new clamps & rods.. - but no TS, nor a center, let alone TP or workholding.

  28. Likes charlieman22 liked this post

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