Resurrecting 1960 10EE with 460V Sabina drive - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Thanks - so opinion is - existing set up is likely undersized kVA.
    Those are smaller - less expensive - which makes some sense.
    I'm going to wait to get the price from Sabina for their solid state solution.
    Hopefully that doesn't creep up too much on me.
    Narrow options here.
    Will post outcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Thanks - so opinion is - existing set up is likely undersized kVA.
    Those are smaller - less expensive - which makes some sense.
    I'm going to wait to get the price from Sabina for their solid state solution.
    Hopefully that doesn't creep up too much on me.
    Narrow options here.
    Will post outcome.
    ANYTHING.. that worked..even if not as well as the PO thought it did.. is worth a try as-had.

    Partly because it is "paid for".

    I mean.. guys date divorced wimmin', yah?



    I just don't see paying MUCH for that tired old RPC and transformer menagerie he had.
    Too cheap to replicate with new and better goods, better sized.

    Let's see if Sabina knows as much about faking 3-Phase sources as they do about putting real 3-Phase to good USE?

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    Default Update on powering solution for 10EE 460V Sabina Drive

    Recap on how we got here.
    Original owner (PO) had it running for decades in his garage off an RPC and a step up converter.
    Pictures/discussion previously posted.

    He also had two milling machines - a Powermatic/Burke, and a Tree 2UVR.
    Both in nice condition and with tooling & vices.
    He wanted to get rid of these too - he is moving - but he wanted a lot of money for them.

    Last week - we came to agreement.
    $2500 - for both mills, all tooling, and the RPC with step up converter.
    He needs them out - quickly - and I agreed to get the entire job done this upcoming weekend.

    As I already have a mill project - adding two more mills to the garage is not what I want to do.
    So I posted in the local Craigslist - with a "delivered price" if sold before this weekend.
    Means I can pick them up and drop them off and never bring them home.
    This morning - I found a taker.

    So long winded - but this means I get the power conversion system for free - and of course I can pluck any tooling to keep for myself that I desire (and there is some good stuff!)

    I've chased down a few other options - and I will leave them here.
    May have to come back to it at some point - we will see.
    1. RPC maker. These guys insist on doing it like the PO has. I was hopeful they could basically make it all in one - they do after all make a 1-3 phase 220, as well as a 1-3 phase 440. So why not just combine the two? Anyhow - no luck. Solution is $2500 or more.
    2. Sabina will build me a digital version - non RPC - which will also use a step up converter. This all in will be ~$2K. Quieter and nicer than an RPC - but that is $2K I don't really want to spend.

    Off to load up two mills and as much tooling as I can muster on Saturday.
    Then it is on to wiring my garage/installing.
    Will post some pictures prior - as I have a mill and welder to consider also.
    Perhaps the crowd can help me with my layout/ kick the tires on my solution/ before I do the work.

    Side Note: Cal - if reading - my preference is to keep this thread and let it morph into the set up and restoration of my 10EE. Ideally, I could re-title. I'll take the time to title the various posts as I go - to make it searchable as it will contain Sabina drive information and other restorations/modification solutions as well. Let me know if there is a means by which to re-title the thread if that makes sense. Prefer this over running 5 different threads in 3 different places sort of thing. Thanks - CM

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    I can rename the thread for you. I would go with something like: "EE12345 195X with Sabina 440V DC drive". What's the serial number and build date of the machine?

    As far as powering it goes, you have the previous owner's solution that supposedly works. Try that first, see if it meets your needs.

    Cal

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    Thanks on both fronts Cal.
    I'll ponder it today and shoot you a note with updated title.
    -CM

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    Default The prior electronic supply components

    Went to PO's house today and disassembled the electric supply components - taking time to photograph and mark everything.
    One disappointing item - the RPC is 5HP.
    On a positive note, it was working, but this seems less than ideal.

    There was also a mystery box attached to the RPC, a "Powerformer" - that was another surprise in the recipe. Any thoughts on what exactly that is?

    Will take a trailer down on Saturday and dolly these components on to it.
    They are heavy - and would be a pain to load/unload from the back of the truck - so I will try to avoid that.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails electrical-layout.jpg   img_4254.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Went to PO's house today and disassembled the electric supply components - taking time to photograph and mark everything.
    One disappointing item - the RPC is 5HP.
    On a positive note, it was working, but this seems less than ideal.

    There was also a mystery box attached to the RPC, a "Powerformer" - that was another surprise in the recipe. Any thoughts on what exactly that is?

    Will take a trailer down on Saturday and dolly these components on to it.
    They are heavy - and would be a pain to load/unload from the back of the truck - so I will try to avoid that.
    The "up converter" is a vanilla 2:1 // 1:2 'dry type' 7.5 kVA transformer wired to step 2XX up to 4XX, where 'XX' depends on the ACTUAL utility mains.

    My nominal 240 VAC is 246 VAC and my nominal 120 VAC outlet are 123 VAC for example.

    The "mystery" box with "?" is yet another vanilla 'dry type' transformer, this one of only 1 kVA AKA 1000 VA. It is a single-phase unit, used on only one 'leg' of the 3-Phase output of the RPC (240/480) - ordinarily to step one leg of the 4XX out of the RPC - ELSE 2XX out of the wall- back DOWN to either/both of 24/48 VAC, single-phase.

    Given he had that 2XX and 12X single-phase at the wall, already... Annnnnnd , no apparent 24 or 48 VAC loads? Unless.. there was an electric forklift and DIY battery charger?

    The 'probable' use may have been to alter / stabilize the Voltage on the RPC's 'generated' leg by adding the inductance of the transformer as a form of tuning - similar to use of 'run/balance' Capacitance.

    It might have had a switched or variable 'ballast' load ...or even NO load at all on the low-Voltage side?

    Kinda 'redneck monkey patch' inductive tuning.... but that's my SWAG!

    Whatever works, works...

    ...and we may NOW have twigged to what it takes to keep a 3-Phase Thyristor-class DC Drive happy on a nominally undersized RPC input!!!

    Good on Yah!

    We may owe that previous owner more that just a "thank you"!

    'coz it is a dirt CHEAP solution with no short-life "wearing parts" if it works at all, let alone works as nicely as it seems to do!

    Share the RPC and transformer specifications with your Sabina contact, please. He'll probably spot the same crude, but effective, kludge as I just twigged to.

    His predecessor may even have suggested it?

    Grog ration authorized! Upgrade to Champagne if it all works well once to-home.



    PS: I have all I need to duplicate that rig and expand on it - eg: Some BIG "Variacs" and multi-tap transformers as well as fixed transformers ... more than just a few, too.

    Still looking at which OTHER 3-Phase drive to purchase as the NEXT stalking horse for RPC running.

    You "appear to have" a 5 HP 240 VDC motor rewound for 440 VDC ergo as much as TEN HP, nominal, but powered off a mere 5 HP RPC, "tuned"?

    I shall attempt a 3 HP RPC idler, here, for the nominal 3 HP, but 4.6 HP-capable Reliance "large frame" motor, then.

    I have FOUR of them, so if anyone can risk it?

    I am he!


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  9. #88
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    For anyone needing translation of a Thermite post - I am honing my skills in the art - my takeaway is:
    1. That box hanging off the side could have been for something else entirely
    or
    2. That box hanging off the side is a savvy bit of secret sauce that appears part of the recipe of making this work well.

    It's curious. There are wires running in to it - but nothing out of it - and no nock outs for anything to have come out of it.
    It really does appear like a tonsil - designed to absorb and swell/contract in some electro-fashion.

    I will ask more questions on Saturday - see what I learn.
    Maybe we can solve that mystery with a bit more technical answer than my anatomy analogy.

    BTW - my digital multimeter read 246 at the breaker on the box of his house.
    I'll measure the same here for comparison and post.

    This thing ran in his garage for decades.
    There were chips everywhere - on all his machines - this was no museum.
    Will be interested to see how well it operates when I reconnect here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    For anyone needing translation of a Thermite post - I am honing my skills in the art - my takeaway is:
    1. That box hanging off the side could have been for something else entirely
    or
    2. That box hanging off the side is a savvy bit of secret sauce that appears part of the recipe of making this work well.

    It's curious. There are wires running in to it - but nothing out of it - and no nock outs for anything to have come out of it.
    It really does appear like a tonsil - designed to absorb and swell/contract in some electro-fashion.
    LOL! Apt analogy, lungs or even stomach might be better-yet, but that IS what inductors JF DO!

    Pump energy into an electromagnetic field.
    Receive it back out again.

    Whether it is "coupled" to the other side of a "transformer" at some "turns ratio" or another ..or never, it acts like BOTH of a flywheel AND a spring.

    With a "time constant", of course. Very little in the universe happens instantaneously, after all.

    An inductor is complementary to a Capacitor.. another form of "flywheel+spring".... which stores its energy as "statcoulombs" AKA a 'static charge".

    Which isn't really all that "static", normally. Highly dynamic far the more often, actually.

    See basic LC tuned circuits. "Music" of sorts, resonance in the electromagnetic realm is. Your stereo and radio and telecoms and internet, and, and, and,,.. depend on the same phenomena. Just faster.




    I will ask more questions on Saturday - see what I learn.
    Maybe we can solve that mystery with a bit more technical answer than my anatomy analogy.

    BTW - my digital multimeter read 246 at the breaker on the box of his house.
    I'll measure the same here for comparison and post.

    This thing ran in his garage for decades.
    There were chips everywhere - on all his machines - this was no museum.
    Will be interested to see how well it operates when I reconnect here.
    Whatever works, works.

    Cue John J. Pershing... commenting on my old alma mater.. the US Army Corps of Engineers:

    "The scientist said that it could not be done.
    But the damned fool Engineer didn't KNOW that.
    So he did it."


    Essayons!

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    Solid weekend - and my fingers are operating again - so here is the update.
    PO offered to give me the 460 power system (RPC and up converter) + boxes and wires - if I would buy his other two machines.
    Must say - the guy had taste.
    Other than the 10EE I bought - he had a Tree 2UVR and a Burke/Powermatic Millright.

    The thing is:
    A. I didn't need a mill.
    B. I certainly didn't need two mills
    C. I would have to move them

    Since I had pictures of both from my prior visit - I took a flyer on it and posted them on craigslist.
    Ad read: Tree Mill/ Delivered!
    Got an instant bite or two - and found a buyer that wanted both.
    Offered for same price I would pay.

    The move was arduous.
    I managed to palletize and load both on my own - though it kicked my rear.
    Not sure I have been that worn out in a decade.
    Took them directly to the buyers shop - so they never came off the trailer/ entered my garage.
    On Sunday - managed to also sell the Logan lathe - I had restored before finding the 10EE.
    Pushed the 10EE into its rightful position - and now it just awaits hook up.
    Garage is less crowded - trailer is returned - and everyone is happy.

    I have some prep work to do before I install the electrical supply - but will post the schematic I plan to use - with some pictures - and ask for some feedback then.
    In the mean time - here are a few shots from the day.
    (if you want a laugh - here is a 6 second video of how I got the machines off the wall and into the center of the garage.)
    https://youtu.be/ZUIUJ10v2pA

    Oh - and Cal - thanks for updating the thread. Much appreciated.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_4321.jpg   img_4302.jpg   img_4195.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    I have some prep work to do before I install the electrical supply - but will post the schematic I plan to use - with some pictures - and ask for some feedback then.
    Pay special attention as to how that smaller transformer is wired.

    It may be any of several ways, even if only two wires connect to the RPC's 3-Phase "output side" *or* to the larger transformer on its split-phase "input side".

    I'll try to pull the maker's schematic and detail what it "could" be doing for each option.

    Where did you luck-out and find a legacy gaslight-era or fin de siècle brothel that wanted a harlot-scarlet Logan "actuator" product?


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Pay special attention as to how that smaller transformer is wired.
    Where did you luck-out and find a legacy gaslight-era or fin de siècle brothel that wanted a harlot-scarlet Logan "actuator" product?

    Don't make fun of my colorful Logan. It brought a good price - and got a lot of interest.
    I plan to get back to wiring up the 10EE at the weekend.
    Pesky paying job has me busy until then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Don't make fun of my colorful Logan. It brought a good price - and got a lot of interest.
    Oh.. OK.. email the paint code, then!



    I plan to get back to wiring up the 10EE at the weekend.
    Pesky paying job has me busy until then.
    Change nada.. at first.

    Just take NOTES (and photos..) as to "as-built", "as received", "as last used.." etc., FIRST, please!


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