Resurrecting 1960 10EE with 460V Sabina drive - Page 6
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  1. #101
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    More or less double posting, as you are using an rpc with your system.

    If you don't mind, and have an amp clamp on your multi-meter or the like. . .I'd be curious to know what kind of power consumption your system uses.

    Measuring amps on a/c lines L1 & L2 incoming to your rpc. Also volts and amps between rpc and drive system with power on but unloaded, lathe not operating. And maybe some amp readings while lathe is powered and working, on the same L1 and L2, plus the 3 legs between rpc and drive.

    Its just a curiosity, we have been discussing possible 3 phase, or rpc driven drive systems. I'm wondering about actual readings verse specs and such. As an example I was asking here:
    3 Phase Options for DC Drive Systems

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    ...
    I opted to put a plug on the end - but otherwise kept to the exact original lay out.
    ...
    Fire extinguisher at the ready - turned out to be un-needed.
    Machine fired right up.
    Video here - all wiring as per prior diagram. https://youtu.be/2_c8NZMIKus
    ...
    House power to shut off box.
    Shut off box to RPC.
    RPC to up converter (220 - 440 ish) with "power former" also hanging off the side of it.
    Reposting config diagram here.Attachment 329553
    Appears this power former is providing some kind of additional pool for the machine to draw from when under load.
    ...

    The Jefferson Electric "Powerformer" 3R is a 1:10 step up/down transformer.

    There's one on eBay that has a wiring diagram laminated to the front (link). Here's the diagram:
    s-l1600.jpg


    Without more information about how it's connected, it a good guess that it's being used to boost the output of the rotary phase converter to give the DC drive a higher input voltage. This is fairly common for DC drives.

    Cal

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    Thanks gents for taking the time to post up a few favorite threads/ knowledge on the subject.
    Made my morning simpler - and I was able to get on with task at hand - which was to rehab the cross slide to serviceable use.

    My goal is to get it up and running - get a bit of experience on it - and determine how deep a dive I want to take on resurrection.

    You may recall - the cross slide had nearly a full revolution of the handle of back lash.
    I missed on that Ebay taper attachment - not for lack of trying - so I wanted to come up with a solution that would improve without doing anything that cant be undone.

    The draw bar has 4 bolts in it - that secure it to the bearing block. The PO had drilled and tapped a hold in the saddle - and used a longer bolt for one of those 4.
    This longer bolt extends through the bearing block and down into the saddle, to secure the bearing block to the saddle.
    But this bolt was sheered off - leaving just some unreliable interference holding the bearing block and creating a lot of movement - which showed itself as backlash.

    img_4397.jpg

    Image above is of the trough in the saddle below where the draw bar sits.
    You can see the broken off securing bolt.
    The concept is a good one I think - but bolt size should be increased - or perhaps a second securing bolt should be used - or both.

    Cross feed is mildly cleaned up - well lubed - and now back together.
    The backlash is about 10 degrees on the handle - two large ticks.
    I may be able to adjust a little more out of it.
    Not as I would like it for long term - but vastly improved and far more usable now.
    Hope to make chips tomorrow on a small project to make a centering tool for my engine cases.
    Get a feel for how the Sabina drive is in action.

  5. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post

    The Jefferson Electric "Powerformer" 3R is a 1:10 step up/down transformer.

    There's one on eBay that has a wiring diagram laminated to the front (link). Here's the diagram:
    s-l1600.jpg


    Without more information about how it's connected, it a good guess that it's being used to boost the output of the rotary phase converter to give the DC drive a higher input voltage. This is fairly common for DC drives.

    Cal
    That IS a good guess, but not the only possibility.

    Nor all that probable, given the area where Ned and the OP operate seems to be running 240-246 out of the wall. After 1:2 step-up to 480/492 the Sabina will deliver a tad over 500 VDC - tops - off that, directly.
    His motor data plate overstamping shows it was rewound for 440 VDC, so that's about right as-is.

    The OTHER possibility - is that the 3R XFRMR is installed on the generated leg of the RPC to stiffen it and/or make it less load-sensitive to a "chopper" type load than run/balance capacitors alone.

    It could be as simple as an inductive resonance rather than buck or boost, and not even wired on the secondary side.

    Given "input" and "output" are more conceptual than obvious with RPC's, that will need some tracing of wires to sort out.

    Well worth it, as this is a proven performer, and it could be the key to use of modest-sized RPC to successfully power OTHER 3-Phase Thyristor-class DC Drives cheaply and easily.

    Used drives are out there from $75 (just bought one Sprint/Bardac Analog) to $700 (Ralph's larger Baldor Digital for the 15 HP L&S AVS DC motor) ...and "thereabouts".

    If we can replicate this, it's one more arrow among MANY in the quiver by now to expand affordable ways to keep our lovely DC motive power.

    L&S as well as Monarch. And not JUST the 10EE, either.


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    Gents - had not seen the posts on the electrical supply system when I updated last night.

    TGS - I'll get some measures for us as requested. Currently don't have an AMP clamp - but should. Let's get some data and see what we see. (I'm interested in this as well).

    Cal/Thermite - I'll sketch out the electrical and/or get some photos for us and let's sort out exactly what that "Powerreformer" is doing. As you can see from the basic diagram - it doesn't appear to be wired in line - though its possible that's deceiving.

    Plan to fire up the machine today and make first chips.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Cal/Thermite - I'll sketch out the electrical and/or get some photos for us and let's sort out exactly what that "Powerreformer" is doing. As you can see from the basic diagram - it doesn't appear to be wired in line - though its possible that's deceiving.
    There's the rub.

    So long as one doesn't look beyond the outer wear jacket of any multi-conductor cable, they can be VERY "deceiving"! 600-pair telco cable? Easy-peasy only because we always use them the same "standard" way! As was in the plan.



    ... if THIS puppy has even but two conductors in the cord back to the RPC, there are still SEVERAL ways it could be arranged. More yet with three conductors.

    I suspect it is 3W+G. Three conductors, plus a safety ground, case/frame to case. But even just two can do more than one thing.

    I suspect it is connected at the 3R XFRMR end with primaries in series (for 4XX VAC).

    I suspect the RPC end places that set of coils across "generated" leg and one other.

    - It COULD instead be placed in series with the output of the generated leg.

    The arrangement of the secondaries of the 3R XFRMR are the mystery.

    - Left unconnected?

    - Connected as a Boost Autotransformer?

    - Connected as a Buck Autotransformer?

    "To be determined".

    Getting a GOOD schematic as a joint exercise will improve your understanding, assure safer use, support ability to keep it running happily, going forward.

    Annnnd .. assure you can sub-in some more readily available 3-Phase DC Drive, if/as/when/ if-ever, the OBVIOUSLY rugged, but also COSTLY.. Sabina takes a dump.

    Not as much fun as making first chip.

    But actually more important, if only for reducing risks.

    Once we have better sight of how it is arranged?

    More than one among us can parallel it at similar component ratings - and take 'scope traces of the waveforms of the output .. as well as Voltage and current readings.

    EG: I just now purchased a second 3-PH-"only" DC Drive to expand my own testing off (enhanced) RPC-source.

    This project might yet prove to have "great legs".


  9. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    ...

    You may recall - the cross slide had nearly a full revolution of the handle of back lash.
    I missed on that Ebay taper attachment - not for lack of trying - so I wanted to come up with a solution that would improve without doing anything that cant be undone.

    The draw bar has 4 bolts in it - that secure it to the bearing block. The PO had drilled and tapped a hold in the saddle - and used a longer bolt for one of those 4.
    This longer bolt extends through the bearing block and down into the saddle, to secure the bearing block to the saddle.
    But this bolt was sheered off - leaving just some unreliable interference holding the bearing block and creating a lot of movement - which showed itself as backlash.

    img_4397.jpg

    Image above is of the trough in the saddle below where the draw bar sits.
    You can see the broken off securing bolt.
    The concept is a good one I think - but bolt size should be increased - or perhaps a second securing bolt should be used - or both.
    ...
    Personally, I would steer away from anything that involves modifying the machine itself. If you drill out the bearing block for larger bolts, you'll eventually need to replace it. A solution that avoids that would be to come up with something that fastens to the tapped holes in the back of the saddle, where the taper attachment used to mount, supporting a clamp of some sort to hold the draw-bar in place. A rectangular frame, welded up from angle iron or tubing could form the support. What I'm thinking of would come up flush with the bottom of the draw-bar. You could then use a C-clamp or a strap and a couple of bolts to secure the draw-bar. A chunk of 2x6 and scrap of 1x2 would work just a well on a temporary basis or to prove the concept. (If what I'm suggesting isn't clear, let me know and I'll try again.)

    Cal

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    Interesting day.
    Woke up ready to test the lathe - flipped on the power - and a horrible noise ensued.
    The RPC seemed to be hopping off the ground - and I shut it down immediately.
    Video here: https://youtu.be/XkDNoBu5gU8

    Wasn't sure exactly what was going on - but assumed I had a short.
    Started isolating sections and testing.
    lathe has a disconnect box on it - so I turned that off.
    This stopped the shorting - and the RPC would fire up without issue.
    Made me wonder though if it was something else shorting.

    Best I can figure - when I moved the machine yesterday - I rotated the wiring coming out of the machine from that disconnect box. This could have been the issue - though I would have expected it to still short with the box disconnected as the short would have been at the entry of the box.

    I also put the machine up on blocks. When I lowered the machine to roll it back off the wall - it no longer shorted. At first I assumed it was the position of the wires feeding from the up converter to the machine's disconnect box - but later, I thought that perhaps it has been caused by the WIAD drawer moving.

    I covered a row of connectors on the WIAD that sit extremely close to the machines body. These had been covered with cellophane tape - but it had come off in the move. It's possible that the lifting of the machine - move the drawer just a little - but enough for these connectors to arc.

    In any event - I got a pretty good look at my wiring as I replaced various sections and connections. Had not seen the discussion above. I will draw up the schematic.

    After rewiring, covering the connection row with plastic, and leveling, I ran the machine for a good 3 hours, as I fabricated my first ever part.

    Have to say, what an incredible machine. I was able to create a centering plug to help place my engine cases on the mill's rotary table on center. Fits inside a bronze bushing with a light press fit. Kept a close eye on the tachometer. The machine was very smooth (aluminum) and the only time I saw any drop was about 25rpm under load when I was parting at fairly low RPM - and too much feed speed...

    Cal - I get your point on the block, and like your idea for a solution. With that said - I had looked at the bearing block as a service part - prone to wear and replacement over time. Is that not the case? The elongated bolt is doing a nice job for the time being - but I expect it will sheer with hard use at some point - so I don't consider it permanent.

    Great to have the machine running.
    Totally bitten by the bug, after fabricating this part.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_4455.jpg   img_4462.jpg   img_4464.jpg  

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  12. #109
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    Default How I Power My Sabina 460V 10EE

    Busy week.
    Wrapped it up by taking a closer look and laying out the wiring diagram as requested.
    The exercise unearthed a lot of worn out wire jackets.
    I will need to run some new wire for this set up to ensure it remains robust.

    Here is the diagram:
    screen-shot-2021-09-25-12.25.37-am.jpg


    Edit - there is an error in this image - it is missing two lines from the RPC to T3
    Last edited by charlieman22; 09-25-2021 at 10:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Busy week.
    Wrapped it up by taking a closer look and laying out the wiring diagram as requested.
    The exercise unearthed a lot of worn out wire jackets.
    I will need to run some new wire for this set up to ensure it remains robust.

    Here is the diagram:
    Please check. The wiring layout / functional block diagram is in error. Cannot function as shown.

    You have two of the three RPC leads tied to the same "L2" termination.

    There is no third phase - the "generated" RPC leg - as-depicted.

    Suspect that one of the two leads from T1 and the RPC shown on terminal L2 should instead be shown:

    EITHER

    - connected to an L3 point not shown.

    OR
    - connected to T3?

    ELSE

    - bypassing L2.. to wire-nut directly to T2.

    AND

    - that BLU lead to T2 NOT commoned on L2 with the OTHER RPC phase-leg-lead.

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    Thermite - I will double check.
    My apologies for the small size of the file.
    I tried to upload a PDF but the smallest size I could make was not allowed.
    Here is the second page of what I assembled.
    I will go back and double check the wiring in the box on the front of the RPC as you note.
    One question. You note T2.
    There is no T2 in my drawing.
    Can you clarify what that is?
    screen-shot-2021-09-25-7.28.17-am.jpg
    screen-shot-2021-09-25-12.25.37-am.jpg

    All - can someone advise me on how to post full image rather than thumbnail if that's possible?
    Note the hand written notes on the paperwork I found.

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    Default Corrected Schematic

    Thermite - see if this makes more sense.
    Looks like two of my lines dropped off - or perhaps I did not transcribe from my hand drawing.
    Here is a revised (thumbnail) of the schematic.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails screen-shot-2021-09-25-7.50.46-am.jpg  

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    A little bigger but not real clear

    screen-shot-2021-09-25-7.28.17-am.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails screen-shot-2021-09-25-7.28.17-am.jpg  

  17. #114
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    Yes.
    Yes - seems to take an act of congress - unsure why.
    Used a method to make it larger, from posting it to my profile, then pasting in the BB code, as instructed on another thread.
    Worked to make it bigger - but resolution is being downgraded by sight when it's uploaded.
    Not sure why/ what I am doing incorrectly.
    Perhaps someone else can help direct me on this?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails screen-shot-2021-09-25-8.25.18-am.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Yes.
    Yes - seems to take an act of congress - unsure why.
    Used a method to make it larger, from posting it to my profile, then pasting in the BB code, as instructed on another thread.
    Worked to make it bigger - but resolution is being downgraded by sight when it's uploaded.
    Not sure why/ what I am doing incorrectly.
    Perhaps someone else can help direct me on this?
    This site could use some upgrades in this area. I know me and Cal, no doubt others too, have tried to get it squared away. No joy yet.

    I use a screen capture device on my pc. If I open a pdf, or a pic from a 3rd party site, or even my own software, I then screen capture it. The pixel density from the screen capture manages to always come in under the ceiling limits of file size imposed by the site. So I can get decent pics posted, though not HD quality.

    Anyway, if you have important pdf files or pics that need to post larger or more clear, post to a 3rd party site or app that you can link here. I will open, screen capture, and repost for you. Or you can email me the pic or file and I'll do the same.

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  20. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Yes.
    Yes - seems to take an act of congress - unsure why.
    Used a method to make it larger, from posting it to my profile, then pasting in the BB code, as instructed on another thread.
    Worked to make it bigger - but resolution is being downgraded by sight when it's uploaded.
    Not sure why/ what I am doing incorrectly.
    Perhaps someone else can help direct me on this?
    It has to do with pixels. Small dots that make print become farther apart when you enlarge a photo and it blurs the print. Your not doing anything wrong.

    If you took a picture of those prints take the papers separately and take them getting the page wall to wall in the camera lens at the highest resolution you have and save the photo to a JPG file. .{ Not JPEG) or a pdf file. Pdf files are restrictive. They want too control what you do.
    Hope this helps


    Texasgunsmith was ahead of me posting this
    Last edited by mllud22; 09-26-2021 at 06:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post
    Thermite - see if this makes more sense.
    Looks like two of my lines dropped off - or perhaps I did not transcribe from my hand drawing.
    Here is a revised (thumbnail) of the schematic.

    NOW it works.

    I have ALMOST enough info to generate a 'proper' schematic, a functional / logic block diagram. And a probable wire run that you will be able to vet.

    The RPC maker's diagram blurs on up-zoom. Kindly email me a cleaner shot, directly. Flatbed scanner rather than camera if you can do. Even if it must be in more than one page/section. I think I have - or can download afresh - the transformer schematics - from their maker's part numbers.

    I'll get on it after midnight. Up to me nips today. Taking advantage of favorable weather thing.


    Thanks!

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    Well - we finally figured out what it takes to keep Thermite from posting.
    It requires a court date, some missing soffit, and some sunny weather.
    Unexpected recipe - but that seems fitting.
    ��

    Emailed you both - hopefully someone can post with success on here.
    I'll work on it from my end in future as noted above.
    Am sure everyone already knows all the challenges.
    Thanks for the help.

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    Default Think I solved it

    Lets try these:



    *Edit - adding clearer image of name plate. Surprisingly - it is only a 5HP RPC.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_4622.jpg  
    Last edited by charlieman22; 09-26-2021 at 10:04 AM.

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  25. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieman22 View Post

    Emailed you both - hopefully someone can post with success on here.
    The middle pic I trimmed off the pic of cover. I couldn't quite make it out from pic. But it appears identical to 1st pic of cover.

    The last pic of your schematic, I can't quite read the small data plate of rpc. If that's an issue you can send me that as a solo pic.

    Inside cover:

    53.jpg

    Paper print:

    54.jpg

    Your schematic:

    55.jpg

    Edit* I couldn't see your pics before I posted. Now I do, lol, anyway. . .

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