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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    I spent a good while this afternoon with the VOM, and have a better idea of how it's supposed to operate.
    .
    .

    What sayeth the experts here?
    I'd say it is a very worthwhile exercise to learn to better understand the schematic Monarch included in your manual.

    Until then, you are sort of re-inventing the wheel, one spoke at a time, and by carrier-pigeon-speed correspondence!


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    They are called heaters and are sized according to motor amps draw and It is your problem with two failed the motor will not run and with the one good phase that you have was able to power the control side of the lathe. put some new heaters and give it a try. It sounds like you have a grasp of how the relay works. It also after looking at the pictures that you had loose connections and that is what burned the heaters.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    I spent a good while this afternoon with the VOM, and have a better idea of how it's supposed to operate.

    First I measured from the plug end to the L1/L2/L3 terminations, and got good 0 ohms for each between one contact and one terminations. The ground blade was 0 ohms to the ways.

    There are 3 red wires in the on/off switch cavity. The one in the center between the two switches connects to the L1 termination, hence powers both switches. It connects to the ON switch and is jumpered to the OFF switch.

    The other side of the ON switch goes to the rotary switch. The other side of the OFF switch goes to the terminal of the starter with the blue wrap on the left side. Its partner connector below is connected to L3.
    The other side of the rotary switch goes to the blue wrap connector on the right side. This connector in turn is jumpered to its partner above.

    The OFF switch is normally closed, so before startup three of the 4 starter connectors have voltage applied. When the rotary switch is in the spindle stop position and the ON button (normally open) is pressed, the starter has all for connectors powered. Presumably the solenoid inside then closes the circuit that starts the motor, and that when the ON button is released, the power at the other 3 are sufficient to keep it closed.

    Then when the OFF switch is pressed, power to two of the three contacts is removed, which therefore should open the motor circuit. I'd note that this has never worked since I've owned the lathe, and to stop the motor I turn off the phase converter. A click when pressing the OFF button would never be heard with the motor running.

    After writing the above, I went back to the shop as I had remembered something I was told here a decade ago, that there are protective "fuses" on each of the power lines that will melt if voltage is too high and protect the downstream components. So I measured resistance across all 3 of these fuses and found only T2 was a closed circuit. I decided to remove the one on T3, and it basically disintegrated in the process. It's clear from the melted wire that it did its job.



    The fuses on the lathe are marked N21 on the plastic exterior. A decade ago, on advice here, I found some Allen Bradleys that are N33 and N36. Since the lathe was running fine, I never replaced the N21s. But I guess that day has come. The N33 is much simpler than the N21:



    The fusible element is just a strip of some metal.

    What sayeth the experts here? Replace the two burned out ones with these? Replace all 3? What size is original on the lathe and are they still available?

    Mounting on the starter just places the fuse inline with the power.



    Just WOW, there is so much muddled thinking in this post I don't know where to start.
    Coupled with things are not connected properly along with self inflicted problems along the way.

    N21's are heaters rated for 3.7 amps. N33's are rated at 11.8 amps and the N36 at 15.7amps.

    Really a mystery here:
    "The OFF switch is normally closed, so before startup three of the 4 starter connectors have voltage applied. When the rotary switch is in the spindle stop position and the ON button (normally open) is pressed, the starter has all for connectors powered. Presumably the solenoid inside then closes the circuit that starts the motor, and that when the ON button is released, the power at the other 3 are sufficient to keep it closed."


    So you have a bad stop button contact, or the operator assembly is not working properly or another short is across the stop button contact:
    "Then when the OFF switch is pressed, power to two of the three contacts is removed, which therefore should open the motor circuit. I'd note that this has never worked since I've owned the lathe, and to stop the motor I turn off the phase converter. A click when pressing the OFF button would never be heard with the motor running."
    So to troubleshoot,
    1, Unhook the wire on the stop button that does not go to the start button.
    2, Look for a 0 ohm connection across the stop button.
    3, Then push the stop button, does the 0 ohm go open circuit?
    4, If yes for both checks, the stop button is probably OK.
    5, Check for 0 ohms between the wire disconnected in step 1 and the wire still connected to the stop button.
    6, If not 0 ohm, tell us what you have.

    Lets work on 1 problem at a time and don't try to explain how you think it works to a guy that has done this kind of work for over 50 years.
    Provide answers to my questions as best you can and I will direct your efforts.

    Post pictures of the "bad" N21's and also a picture of where they came off.
    Long with the full load amps on the AC motor nameplate and any AF or service factor ratings.

    Bill

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    Quick response to the previous.

    1) Until this week I didn't realize that the pushbutton and contact block were separate parts. Since one4 half of the contact block works I don't need a new one currently.

    2) For whatever reason my Monarch book doesn't include a schematic. I'm not sure looking at it would be as helpful to me as tracing the wires was.

    3) I'll try to locate the data plate on the motor. My lathe is positioned with the tailstock end close to the wall, so find it might be a problem. If it can be seen from the other doors that would be easier than moving it.

    4) I'll also try to measure the phase voltages. Presumably it's safe to use the AC voltage setting on the VOM, but I'll try to do so without touching any part of it.

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    I tested the stop button across the terminals with the wire connected and it was as it should be. I'll disconnect the wire and retest if necessary. Pictures of heater and its prior home are posted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    Quick response to the previous.

    1) Until this week I didn't realize that the pushbutton and contact block were separate parts. Since one4 half of the contact block works I don't need a new one currently.

    2) For whatever reason my Monarch book doesn't include a schematic. I'm not sure looking at it would be as helpful to me as tracing the wires was.
    It identifies the Allen-Bradley starter code number. Monarch didn't make those, they bought them, so didn't document much more than that. So that sends one off to Allen-Bradley info for the family (more than one, over long years) of compatible "thermals" AKA fuses.

    Your N21 is a 3.82 A fuse - regardless of whether it is a curly-coil of wire or a U-shaped bar. Most-recent iteration replacing the "N" family are "W" family. There are tables online.

    Your "should have changed.." remark hints that you had a 440 V setup, re-terminated it for 220 V, should have installed thermals of double the current rating, but did not.

    Whatever the underling reason, NOW you need to install thermals / fuses that are of the proper current rating.

    If you cannot "get your head" into where the data plate is to eyeball it directly, no fear. Just use a cheap "selfie stick" and take enough photos with a digital camera or cell phone "guessing" where it is pointing and focused until at last one foto captures a clean view of the plate.

    Or go through PM and find a foto of some one else's plate.

    Another PM member I shipped a complete MG unit to a while back might still have it sitting out loose - if he is reading, and could chime-in with the numbers.

    Or Cal may have the figures in his "library"? Or have the specs for the heaters?

    Pretty sure that has been covered in the PM threads on 220/440 conversions.

    I'm sort of handicapped - mostly Parker-SSD Solid State Drives, here.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    I tested the stop button across the terminals with the wire connected and it was as it should be. I'll disconnect the wire and retest if necessary. Pictures of heater and its prior home are posted.
    Remove the other heaters and post pictures of them and where they came from, you said you had 2 that were open.
    You are missing solder pot on the picture you did post. I want you to leave the heaters out until we get the start/stop circuit working properly.
    The contacts on the thermal overload relays are not hooked up, along with missing parts, when the start/stop is working properly, I will have you replace the heaters with 14 GA jumper wire, and completely bypassing the right unit entirely since there is heat damage from poor connections.

    Checked with the moderator Cal.
    13.7A for round dial and 14A for square dial.


    When you checked the stop button, did it go open circuit when you pushed it??? You have said that it has never worked to stop the MG.

    A Monarch schematic at this point will not help you, the parts (motor starter and start&stop buttons) are not OEM and the circuitry is not wired properly. The AB starter you have in the lathe is one of the best ever made, We just need to move step by step until all issues are resolved.

    I will check back in the AM.
    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitandmiss View Post
    Checked with the moderator Cal.
    13.7A for round dial and 14A for square dial.
    Its not that simple. Depends completely on the wiring diagram for *Your* lathe. Some 10EE's, including mine, use the heater coils to protect only the coolant pump. Here is thread with the details: Adding ELSR/VSR to a WiaD Lathe

    Cal may be correct that all MG machines take the 13.7 or 14A heater coils, but I wanted to make sure that the statement was qualified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitandmiss View Post
    ... the parts (motor starter and start&stop buttons) are not OEM and the circuitry is not wired properly. The AB starter you have in the lathe is one of the best ever made, We just need to move step by step until all issues are resolved.
    That must have been recognized by at least one earlier seeker.

    I have a 10EE cover for that area from a part-out that has had a rectangular opening sawed through it just the right size to mount the starter still in its usual NEMA box rather than pull it out and stuff it in where the OEM one sat - fastened to the casting.

    If that simplifies life to what an electrician "expects", happy to donate it and I'll cover the shipping as well.

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    I'll try to get to the shop this morning and try to find the motor plate and RPG voltages. I suspected the starter is not OEM since there's no push button for the hole in the casting.

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    lets skip the motor nameplate info for now.

    Post pictures of the "bad" N21's and also a picture of where they came off.


    "So I assume I'd measure between the L1/L2/L3 connectors at the top of the motor starter. Correct?" Yes, post your readings for the 6 voltages here.
    Once you have proper power to the motor starter, then we will figure out what else is damaged, wires burned open or contacts welded shut.

    When you checked the stop button, did it go open circuit when you pushed it??? You have said that it has never worked to stop the MG.

    I will be out till after lunch,
    Bill

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    Voltages:

    L1-L2 218
    L1-L3 247
    L2-L3 239
    L1-Gnd 123
    L2-Gnd 189
    L3-Gnd 123

    Picture of the other two heaters. The T2 heater which survived is an N24, npt N21 like the other 2.



    Picture of T3 heater previously posted:



    Location T3 heater removed - red arrow:



    For the stop button, yes it does appear to operate properly as pushing button opens the circuit. However, once it failed to work back in 2008 I don't think I ever tried it again since the on/off switch for the RPC is right there in easy reach.

    I'll see if I can find the motor plate.

  13. #33
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    Plate found inside front cover:


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    Take note of the FLA @ 440 of 6.6 A, and @ 220 of 13.2 A.

    PBSL an N21 rated 3.8 A ever lasted as long as it did.

    Confer with (the other) Bill, but whilst he CAN walk you through a piecemeal repair, there's enough probabilty of collateral damage, I would not.

    I'd instead suggest starting-over with a complete, used-but-good Eg: UNDAMAGED starter. Less "detective work" time sucked out of the room, lower risk of further surprises.

    See to it being properly configured with the correct overloads, and cut-it-in, all in one go - cleaning up the rest of the wiring as you proceed. Then yer good for long years.

    Brand new prices are all over the lot, $300 to $800.

    Used and even "purported to be" refurbished starters from the usual suspects can be found down around a hundred bucks.

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    So since he admits in post #1 "I'm pretty useless in diagnosing electrical issues"
    He also seems to not want to follow instructions and report back what he did and what the results were:
    I have not gotten anywhere near to where I would have liked to have been this afternoon.
    My manual arrived in todays mail so I will be working on a critical machine for emergency parts for Military work.
    This may take most of next week anyway.

    I have already revealed where I was going to take him in post #27 You might rethink your position on how to get him running!

    So thermite Bill, I am turning him over to you to walk him through your idea of how to get him running.
    I don't even want to think about how to walk him through swapping parts around to get the right aux contact (there is at least half a dozen choices available) purchased and installed, along with switching the coils out since his voltage is quite hard to find..... Good Luck!!!

    Bill

    I don't think the current production AB motor starters will even fit in the space he has!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitandmiss View Post
    So since he admits in post #1 "I'm pretty useless in diagnosing electrical issues"
    He also seems to not want to follow instructions and report back what he did and what the results were:
    I have not gotten anywhere near to where I would have liked to have been this afternoon.
    My manual arrived in todays mail so I will be working on a critical machine for emergency parts for Military work.
    This may take most of next week anyway.

    I have already revealed where I was going to take him in post #27 You might rethink your position on how to get him running!

    So thermite Bill, I am turning him over to you to walk him through your idea of how to get him running.
    I don't even want to think about how to walk him through swapping parts around to get the right aux contact (there is at least half a dozen choices available) purchased and installed, along with switching the coils out since his voltage is quite hard to find..... Good Luck!!!

    Bill

    I don't think the current production AB motor starters will even fit in the space he has!
    Yah but as you just recapped, post 27's goal won't fly if yah can't get him to stay on the path to it.

    With the cut-out cover-casting I offered, they don't HAVE to fit the OEM space.

    At 4 1/2" rough opening, it would clear any pre-packaged NEMA 1 or better @ 4" widever by however deep by however high. Any industrial "sparks" could cut that sort of "familiar item" in fast enough. It's only an ignorant 5 HP mag starter, not a major railyard's switch & signal interlocker.



    All we needed - either/any of us - is the WILLING mind to follow simple instructions.

    But back to Dave's post.

    # 3.

    Wisdom will out. Dave called it right.

    Some other pair of "local" hands needs to take this over if it isn't to turn into a never-ending saga of going off on side-trips over wires "gone bad", "I have this (item that doesn't fit the need..)" and "too much Voltage" advisories.

    A blind spot is a blind spot. No foul. Doesn't mean a person ain't smart about OTHER stuff.

    Dirt-simple as common ~ 5 HP starters are, I hope I'm still smart ENOUGH to class this as a tad too risky to do from a distance with the hands presently on it, repeat post 3, say once more "get local help".. and go do something else under MY roof.

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    As far as I know I have responded to every request for photos and results.

    What simple instructions did I miss?

    I have the three heaters I bought a decade ago on eBay that I can install. Two N33s and an N36. Unless that's asking for too much trouble, I can do so and give it a try.

    email sent to thermite about the cutout casting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    As far as I know I have responded to every request for photos and results.

    What simple instructions did I miss?
    See post #1 and post #3. You said this wasn't your game. You were correct. So was Dave (rimcanyon).

    FWIW-nothing-really I have plenty of shortcomings, too. One of the more amusing ones that I can NOT throw a hand-grenade where it is meant to go.

    All the coaching available, expert shot, ambidextrous or not - and there was plenty of coaching, active-duty Army - never did manage to correct that.

    Got funny when a bored Sergeant sent me onto the live range even knowing I was dangerous off all-damned-day failures with "practice" grenades.

    Live frag grenade at least didn't land BEHIND us, but the training officer shouting "SHORTGODAMMIT!" and landing on my back HARD to drop us below the low concrete shield as dirt flew over us from five feet the other side of it instead of fifty YARDS was only funny to the Sergeants. Plural. We had an "audience" it seems.

    Naturally, I denied having any rememberence of which Sergeant had done him the dirty.

    "All Sergeants look alike to me, Sir! All I can see is their stripes!"

    Couldn't throw for shit, but DID know how to cover my ass with something lighter and less sweaty than 200 lbs of scared shitless brand-new Infantry Second Lootenant...



    Finding a LOCAL electrician seems the best way to cover YOUR ass.

    As with walking on water, this s**t is dead-easy only if you already know where the stepping stones just under the surface are situated.

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    I have a local guy who has a motor repair shop coming over tomorrow if his migraine eases up. I bought the RPC motor from him back when, and he lives in my neighborhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    I have a local guy who has a motor repair shop coming over tomorrow if his migraine eases up. I bought the RPC motor from him back when, and he lives in my neighborhood.
    Be patient if he needs another week. If he knows motors, he will know starters for them. That should see it sorted cleanly and durably. Some guy doing kitchen range hoods, adding dryer branch circuits, and upgrading bathrooms to GFCI outlets might not be as familiar.

    More "good news"?

    Most of the time? Motor starters are "wire and forget". SO durable most folks never HAVE to know much about them.

    Your one was BADLY mis-configured and STILL operated a long time when it really should have failed ages ago.


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