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  1. #41
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    My neighbor came over for a look, but seems he's had enough business over 30 years just repairing/rewinding motors that he never had to be concerned with controls. But he has an acquaintance that was the maintenance guy for a machine shop and who was just laid off. He'll get a call to see if he can advise on a more modern system.

    In the meantime I verified that the starter operates on both the ON and OFF buttons. So I screwed in the larger N3x heaters, pressed the ON key, and was rewarded with the motor running as well as the spindle in FWD. It still doesn't reverse, but I don't care. The stop button does stop the motor, but I'm so habituated to just turning off the RPC it might take some time to get used to using the OFF button (if there's any real reason to do so).

    I learned a lot from this exercise. I believe that I really should replace the starter with a modern setup when I find someone to build it that makes house calls.

    Since I'm now 70 and an empty nester, who knows how long wife will want to stay put and me have the shop. At least if I have to sell the equipment I'll have a lathe that runs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    My neighbor came over for a look, but seems he's had enough business over 30 years just repairing/rewinding motors that he never had to be concerned with controls. But he has an acquaintance that was the maintenance guy for a machine shop and who was just laid off. He'll get a call to see if he can advise on a more modern system.

    In the meantime I verified that the starter operates on both the ON and OFF buttons. So I screwed in the larger N3x heaters, pressed the ON key, and was rewarded with the motor running as well as the spindle in FWD. It still doesn't reverse, but I don't care. The stop button does stop the motor, but I'm so habituated to just turning off the RPC it might take some time to get used to using the OFF button (if there's any real reason to do so).
    There are several reasons actually. "Safer that way" to put it back in OEM order. I'll email you.
    I learned a lot from this exercise. I believe that I really should replace the starter with a modern setup when I find someone to build it that makes house calls.
    The starter you have - or same one, UNDAMAGED, is as "modern" as it needs to be. Also at least a modest improvement over the OEM one, actually.

    Not that there is a lot wrong with either one, so long as undamaged, properly configured, and properly installed.

    It just doesn't fit as well, physically, as the OEM one. I'll cover that as well.
    Since I'm now 70 and an empty nester, who knows how long wife will want to stay put and me have the shop. At least if I have to sell the equipment I'll have a lathe that runs.
    Just started chipping away at year 76, and coming up 30 years of renovating the same house. We figure we are good for 85 if not 90 to finish that project, relax and just enjoy it. Family history thing, all sides.



    As to the 10EE? Better yet if it responds to all of its controls as it was meant to do. Kludges confuse those who try to assist, even if the operator has become accustomed to odd work-arounds.

    Restoring "reverse" won't be hard.

    Use of the "motor switch" to select FWD-OFF-REV also gets your DC final-drive motor's braking resistors back into action. Killing the RPC has a lag, gets you only "coast down" to a stop. That is both less convenient and less SAFE than faster braking.

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    Use of the "motor switch" to select FWD-OFF-REV also gets your DC final-drive motor's braking resistors back into action.
    Are you saying to turn the rotary to REV in order to brake the spindle?

    As far as using reverse, I'm aware of only a few, none of which I've needed. I suppose metric threading would be a necessity if you have the change gears. Upside down cutoff tool behind the work doesn't appear practical.

    WRT houses, we built ours in 1992. Wife is 12 years younger, but as long as I can climb the stairs I'm fine with staying. Retired in 2004, and had shop built as an add-on in 2008, starting just before the market crash with my usual good timing. A friend had a home shop and that's what got me interested in machining. Did votech machining classes in retirement for 3 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    Are you saying to turn the rotary to REV in order to brake the spindle?
    No. It tries to prevent that sort of stupidity. Just set it to the center or Neutral position.

    I knows what to do from there.

    Biased relays in the DC panel sense current flow and alter field current for either of effective braking OR accceleration.

    See "Field Accelleration" or "FA" and "Anti-Plugging" or "AP" functions.

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    I have never cut off the RPC with the spindle turning if that's what you were thinking.

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    One thing, to check the reverse function, first see if the contactor closes. This will be one in your third picture in post #5. Some of the contacts are really scorched and may not be making contact. DO NOT file them!!!! If you do, unless Tom Degenhart beats me to it, I will fill a voo doo doll of you with pins and sentence it to lifetime in solitary at Levenworth. Sometimes contacts get so bad they need dressing, but it is a careful operation, removing only the minimum silver necessary. I have overhauled a couple of those panels and somewhere in my junk I have some Struthers Dunn contactors with the same contacts.

    Bill

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    I opened the cabinet and observed the contactors. In FWD, the 4 on the right engage and spindle turns. With reverse the 4 on the left are actuated. I can't tell from looking if all actually touch. I can check with VOM. Is this AC or DC voltage, and what values would I be looking for (other than just open/closed)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    I opened the cabinet and observed the contactors. In FWD, the 4 on the right engage and spindle turns. With reverse the 4 on the left are actuated. I can't tell from looking if all actually touch. I can check with VOM. Is this AC or DC voltage, and what values would I be looking for (other than just open/closed)?
    As published, as posted on PM for years and still-yet today, the actuator coils are nominal 115 Volts, Dee Cee.

    The power carried is near-zero Volts to nominal 230 Volts Dee Cee, real-world as high as 250-255 VDC. Currents of up to 12 1/2 FLA, full-load, more-yet at locked-rotor. Expect a few amps, only, when the spindle is not loaded.

    Some clamp-ammeters can only read AC, but around $40 and a bit can find you ones that read DC as well, and are also all-around-useful meters.

    It helps - I consider it ESSENTIAL - to have two or more meters anyway.

    Safer to rig each, power OFF, with clip leads set up to measure ONE parameter.

    Then, hands safely elsewhere, apply power, take note of several readings without having to risk reaching into a danger zone to manipulate probes.

    Trobleshooting a 10EE doesn't need complex meters.

    It SHOULD HAVE meters and test leads made for higher Voltage use. 600 Volts or better, not a mere 300 V "maybe" as might be just fine for 6, 12, 24 V auto, truck, household appliance, or marine use and Pee Cees.

    Spikes can go four and five times as high as the nominal 230 VDC.

    Find safe equipment, borrow it, rent it, learn to use it safely - or stay TF out of the danger zone.

    We aren't all that effective at helping Widows sell-off Old Iron, nor seek any more practice at trying to do, thanks.

    Stay safe. Even modest-Voltage "stick and fry" Dee Cee doesn't take prisoners.

    Becoming what Peter Haas called "rectumfried" stinks. In more ways than one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    I opened the cabinet and observed the contactors. In FWD, the 4 on the right engage and spindle turns. With reverse the 4 on the left are actuated. I can't tell from looking if all actually touch. I can check with VOM. Is this AC or DC voltage, and what values would I be looking for (other than just open/closed)?
    With the power disconnected completely, press the insulating crossbar near its center to actuate the contactor. Note that the contacts are spring mounted on this bar and should lift off it slightly if they are making contact. You can confirm it with an ohmeter by clipping one lead on the fixed and the other on the moving contact. You may show some continuity with the contact open through other circuitry and it should be nearly zero ohms, at most a fraction of an ohm with it closed.

    Keep your hands out when the power is on. This is no place for learn by doing.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Keep your hands out when the power is on. This is no place for learn by ^^^ dying ^^^.
    Take that seriously.

    None of those of us with grey hair - or the mere MEMORY of hair - made it this far by ignoring the reality that they call them "Lethal Voltages" because they HAVE BEEN exactly that, more than just the one time, and are always up for doing us in AGAIN given the slightest-ever of opportunity at it.

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    Left two contactors are the ones not contacting. Measure points were the "blades" and where indicated by the arrows:


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    There must be a problem with the travel since all four are not likely to have worn to that point. See if the movement looks the same as the other contactor, if not, look for the cause.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    There must be a problem with the travel since all four are not likely to have worn to that point. See if the movement looks the same as the other contactor, if not, look for the cause.

    Bill
    Are the OEM contactors even still in active use? See photos, the "odd stuff".

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    There must be a problem with the travel since all four are not likely to have worn to that point. See if the movement looks the same as the other contactor, if not, look for the cause.

    Bill
    Two make contact, two don't. Not all 4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    Two make contact, two don't. Not all 4.
    "As built", only two carry the Armature power. If those are "the right ones" it is not yet clear if this is a problem. A broken lead to a motor's brush WOULD be a problem!

    As-built, the Field is "sensed" and boosted when need be for acceleration or braking, the Armature power cut-off if the field is too low or missing outright, and whether braking or plugging is permitted or NOT RIGHT NOW is controlled - all by other relay contacts, not those on the heavy, main contactor.

    That said, those other, "sensitive" control relays are "deaf, dumb, and blind" if the main contactors do not carrry what they need to them so they can DO that sensing.

    You will probably have more than one fault to sort, "in layers" - since someone HAD gotten it running - almost-certainly with old workaround kludges and monkey-patching as well.

    More testing needed.

    "Patience, electron-hopper" ..Don't jump to conclusions just yet!

    As with nany things, some of them warm and two-legged, a 10EE is only "easy" to deal with if it hasn't already been MESSED WITH by the ignorant, indifferent, abusive, or otherwise uncaring.

    It doesn't need two of those in a row! You can be the saviour.

    I did say "patience?"

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    When you say that two do not make contact, do you mean physically or electrically? Does the lathe still have braking? If not, I bet that it was disabled in the "conversion" and people stopped it quickly by throwing it over to reverse until it slowed down. Switching off while the motor was still turning forward would a put a huge surge through the contacts that they were not designed to carry. The original system had a relay that looked at the motor armature's output voltage and hels the contactor open until it had almost come to a stop, then closing the reverse contactor was just a normal startup.

    Bill

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    I mean electrically as I don't see 0 ohms when supposedly contacted. Braking is excellent in FWD. I measured by stopwatch less than 2 seconds from 1500 rpm to 0.

    As I said before, I have never cut power when the spindle was turning.

    If I gauge the state of the left contactor array again the right, I wouldn't guess anything had been messed with. By conversion, I assume you mean when the original starter was replaced with the current one. I have no real history of the machine between the time it was sold in 1942 to Singer for making flight simulator parts until I bought it from the son of the man who had it in a machine shop for an unknown number of years.

    I did a test with the small strip of aluminum foil (.001" thick) as a feeler. If I press the blade, I can feel contact with the aluminum on all 4. If I press the insulating bar in it's center, none of them seem to contact. I am assuming that there is some type of electrical solenoid that activates the contactors from below, so now way of knowing how much force is applied.

    But I did find a "clue". If I hold the insulating bar with a fingertip on each end, the entire assembly call jiggle a good bit forward and back, much more than the same test on the right side. If when the assembly is activated and it isn't straight, then not having contact on one side or the other would be likely.

    *** afternoon edit

    Now with power applied I observed the contactors from above as close to vertical as possible. I can't see any indication that the contactors are not touching when I set to reverse.
    Last edited by kvom; 03-30-2020 at 02:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kvom View Post
    Left two contactors are the ones not contacting. Measure points were the "blades" and where indicated by the arrows:

    It appears to me that someone has been messing with the wires that connect to the movable fingers. See how the one on the far left comes into the crimp from the TOP? I seriously doubt that's original. Several of the other crimps look haphazard as well. The wire used in those leads has a large number of very fine conductors for high flexibility. If someone replaced one or more leads with common stranded wire, the difference in flexibility will cause serious problems. Let's see a photo of the entire contactor.

    Here's what mine looks like, for reference:
    img_3620.jpg


    Mine has a repair in one of the leads, but it doesn't cause problems.

    Cal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    The wire used in those leads has a large number of very fine conductors for high flexibility.
    Newer than 10EE era. Mostly. Same needs.

    For your library:

    https://lugsdirect.com/PDF%20Documen...LEX%20wire.pdf


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