running 10ee on 120v single phase for basic testing?
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  1. #1
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    Default running 10ee on 120v single phase for basic testing?

    Hi,

    I have a 10ee currently in a garage without 3phase or even 240v single phase.
    However I do have some 120-to-240 transformers (500VA rated).

    Of course this isn't anywhere enough to really run a 10ee at high speed or do anything
    that draws real current. But is it enough to get the spindle running and check
    basic electrical functions?

    The machine was running when I picked it up, so I'm not too concerned about it.

    There are also some 10ee's around from time to time that the seller says "I have no way to power this" and it would be nice to have a kit to take along to run the thing.

    -Phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandenberger View Post
    Hi,

    I have a 10ee currently in a garage without 3phase or even 240v single phase.
    However I do have some 120-to-240 transformers (500VA rated).

    Of course this isn't anywhere enough to really run a 10ee at high speed or do anything
    that draws real current. But is it enough to get the spindle running and check
    basic electrical functions?

    The machine was running when I picked it up, so I'm not too concerned about it.

    There are also some 10ee's around from time to time that the seller says "I have no way to power this" and it would be nice to have a kit to take along to run the thing.

    -Phil
    Short answer NOPE

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    Well, a modular could be done through a transformer (except coolant pump). But, you’d need at least 3 KVAfor the transformer, and likely inrush current powering it on would blow a 20A circuit. And you risk messing up a machine that isn’t yours ...

    Realistically, no.

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    The seller would not be likely to allow you to do that.
    I would not.
    Not seeing it run should be reflected in the price

    It' is a good question to ask. It would be nice too verify that it runs.
    You may be very well qualified but people dont know you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post
    The seller would not be likely to allow you to do that.
    I would not.
    Not seeing it run should be reflected in the price

    It' is a good question to ask. It would be nice too verify that it runs.
    You may be very well qualified but people dont know you.
    Agreed in principle with peoples' comments here.

    I tend to see 10ee's that people price as if it runs, but then say it can't be run in situ.

    Even for my own machine, I would think a 240v single phase 500w power supply would either blow
    a fuse in the step up transformer, or possibly be enough to start the motor. The big thyristors in my
    machine were replaced with the solid state equivalents (Scissio Controls, sold by Monarch) so
    perhaps the "static" power draw on my machine would be fairly modest. I'm not sure with this drive
    design whether inrush is huge (like a 3ph motor being switched on) or much more gradual (like a VFD).

    Maybe I'll measure the inrush and static power draw on my machine once I wire up a 240v 30A circuit,
    just to satisfy my curiosity.

    -Phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandenberger View Post
    There are also some 10ee's around from time to time that the seller says "I have no way to power this" and it would be nice to have a kit to take along to run the thing.
    The proper name for that kit is "3 phase generator in the back of a pickup truck".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandenberger View Post
    Hi,

    I have a 10ee currently in a garage without 3phase or even 240v single phase.
    However I do have some 120-to-240 transformers (500VA rated).

    Of course this isn't anywhere enough to really run a 10ee at high speed or do anything
    that draws real current. But is it enough to get the spindle running and check
    basic electrical functions?

    The machine was running when I picked it up, so I'm not too concerned about it.

    There are also some 10ee's around from time to time that the seller says "I have no way to power this" and it would be nice to have a kit to take along to run the thing.

    -Phil
    If it's a motor/generator machine, you could run the spindle motor a one speed, with full power and check out most of the DC control panel using a pair of bridge rectifiers (that's assuming that we're not talking about an inline exciter machine with a 230VDC spindle motor field). A works in a drawer (WiaD) machine could probably also be checked out that way, but I would have to have a look at the schematics to be sure. On a modular machine, you could check the spindle motor, but I'm not sure what else.

    What type of drive are we talking about?

    Cal

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    Buy a 10 HP Huanyang VFD and pre set your low and high settings to 60HZ. Wire a 30 Amp extension to it and carry along a few different 50 amp male plug ends. Everyone has a 200V dryer outlet in their home. Use whatever end you need and then wire the MG motor directly to the VFD. The capacitors in the VFD will take care of the inrush as well as the 3 phase conversion. Ask me how I know. tested half a dozen machines this month this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandenberger View Post
    ...so
    perhaps the "static" power draw on my machine would be fairly modest. I'm not sure with this drive design whether inrush is huge (like a 3ph motor being switched on) or much more gradual (like a VFD).

    Maybe I'll measure the inrush and static power draw on my machine once I wire up a 240v 30A circuit,
    just to satisfy my curiosity.

    -Phil
    No idea what the WiaD or Module drives "look like" for initial load, but..

    I did MOST of my early testing for the Eurotherm/Parker 514C-16 SSD DC drive into 3 HP "large Frame" and 3 HP "small frame" Reliance motors .... off a 15A @ 246 VAC branch. Never once tripped that "QO" breaker.

    Annnnd.. as HAPPENS... the "array" of transformers (four) I use to get "as much as" 375 VAC to feed the DC Drive, all but one happen to have taps on the primary side that I COULD re-strap for 120 VAC, nominal, instead of 220 VAC, nominal.

    There's about 8 or 9 KVA there, given it was a motley assemblage for R&D.

    But ISTR it only needs about 6 KVA even for full-gallop and fast 4Q reversing?

    Not so low-mass I'd want to trek THAT rig to some other Pilgrim's place. There's around 130 lbs of Iron & Copper in it, counting the big "ripple filter" inductor.

    That said? No need of the ripple-filter nor overvolting capabilty for remote testing.

    - ONE SSD 514C. Use the onboard FWB for field power.

    - ONE say 120/240 to 277 V transformer, 5KVA.

    Junction box set-up for a 30A @ 120 VAC or 15A @ 240 VAC.

    SO power cord to suit.

    Mebbe 70 lbs, Avoir? Cheap hand-truck and:

    "Have Dinosaur Current, will travel. Wire Paladin, San FranCrisco"

    Pull A1 & A2, F1 & F2 at motor peckerhead and run it.

    If yah have the SSD, the OEM DC drive has already become "don't HAVE to care".

    Nor need the transformer. ISTR I have run my one off 48 VAC?

    You could still overwhelm a 15A @ 120 VAC (not 240...) branch, but probably get by on that - or surely a 20A branch.. IF yah do not get greedy.

    "nuther Pilgrim didn't believe me that the large frame will make turns off a pair of seriesed 12V auto batteries, Field and Armature simply paralleled. Or mebbe even just the ONE?

    It does.

    Just not FAST AND POWERFUl turns!

    Dee Cee is that way...

    Not overly fussy.

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    Modulars run on single phase. All you need is a transformer from 120 to 240 and a good enough line. Turn the speed control down to minimum and after starting, bring it up gradually. So much for starting surge.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Modulars run on single phase. All you need is a transformer from 120 to 240 and a good enough line. Turn the speed control down to minimum and after starting, bring it up gradually. So much for starting surge.

    Bill
    At 120 or thereabouts? Might not get away with it on a common 20A branch.

    As with my SSD-power-booster rig (7 or 8 KVA, and with 246 in), a Modular has around a 5 KVA transformer with 2XX in. WiaD 4.8 or so?

    My "getting by" with 15A @ 246 VAC is with the SSD's 500 milli-Watt idle draw. It only adds 55 W to the load's demand even at full-gallop.

    Hungrier, even at idle (filament heat..) "hollow-state" hints at need of a 30A branch for 120+?

    Those are not all that common.

    Worth a try, though...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don's Engine View Post
    Buy a 10 HP Huanyang VFD and pre set your low and high settings to 60HZ. Wire a 30 Amp extension to it and carry along a few different 50 amp male plug ends. Everyone has a 200V dryer outlet in their home. Use whatever end you need and then wire the MG motor directly to the VFD. The capacitors in the VFD will take care of the inrush as well as the 3 phase conversion. Ask me how I know. tested half a dozen machines this month this way.
    I have been watching your video on youtube and i am impressed. so you mean to tell me i can install a VFD straight to my current reliance DC motor and it will run it just fine?
    if i can get rid of this pacemaster controller i would stoked!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrain2015 View Post
    I have been watching your video on youtube and i am impressed. so you mean to tell me i can install a VFD straight to my current reliance DC motor and it will run it just fine?
    if i can get rid of this pacemaster controller i would stoked!!!
    No. You use the VFD to generate 3 phase for the 10EE drive. There are VFDs that won't be happy with using an external switch to start the motor.

    All in all it'd be safer for the OP to make an extension cord to reach a dryer outlet and connect the hot leads to the 10EE drive. Both the WiaD and Modular drives can be run on single phase. Both will take most of a 20A feed just to start.

    But your drive is (I believe) a regenerative drive from the 70's, and if so it requires a good 3 phase source. I'm not sure that the VFD will work unless you clean up the output with an idler motor or something (using the induction to smooth the waveform). Best thing would be to get a Phase Perfect or similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    No. You use the VFD to generate 3 phase for the 10EE drive. There are VFDs that won't be happy with using an external switch to start the motor.

    All in all it'd be safer for the OP to make an extension cord to reach a dryer outlet and connect the hot leads to the 10EE drive. Both the WiaD and Modular drives can be run on single phase. Both will take most of a 20A feed just to start.

    But your drive is (I believe) a regenerative drive from the 70's, and if so it requires a good 3 phase source. I'm not sure that the VFD will work unless you clean up the output with an idler motor or something (using the induction to smooth the waveform). Best thing would be to get a Phase Perfect or similar.
    yeah i hadnt finished watching his video before i replied.
    in the video it looks to be the original DC motor, but i was fooled because it was an AC motor that he put in the DC motor casing in disguise!

    i have a write up on my 10EE that ive been updating on. just havent been making much progress on it and getting close to gutting it and starting over.
    it sucks because it may be a super simple fix, but i cant figure out where it is.


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