Saddle fitting on 10EE
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  1. #1
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    A question has come up on the fitting of the saddle to a 10EE. It was my understanding that the front flat way was not used on a 10EE, that the saddle rode a little way above the surface. When I had my saddle off I seem to recall an oil groove, but no way for oil line to the flat (mine has 5 lines - rear flat, front V, cross slide dial and both cross slide ways).

    Talking to Harry, though, he has 6 lines with the 'extra' one going to the front flat. Was this a later change or something special for the 30" bed?

    If there's no oil line I don't think that the flat should contact. Any comments?

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    Russ,
    I believe that the front flat of my 1942 saddle
    is in contact. I least I have a little bit of wear in that area.
    As for oil lines I'll check later today and see.
    Steve

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    Since there are way wipers on this surface,at
    least on mine ('59), what does that mean?
    BUT there are no oil lines or oil holes directly feeding this surface, But there is a oil hole feeding the backside of the front
    V-way right in line with the center part of
    this way surface. Did they figure this hole
    could serve both ways, like the water going down the mountain to the valley.?

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    I believe that there should be no contac on the front flat way. The way wiper is there to keep small chips fron getting under the carriage. The problem with having the front way bear as a way surface for the carrage is that it would be very difficult to get a good contac on both the "VEE" and the flat right next to it. There is another problem if the flat way was used as a bearing for the carrige, and that is one of uneven wear. As the "VEE" way on the carrige has about 3 times the length of the area that the flat way would have the two surfaces would wear at very uneen rates, and the extra bearing on the flat way would soon not be giving any support.
    The area where the flat way goes under the saddle on my '63 is just milled, it has never been scraped. Ross

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    I also think that is correct. It seems to me, that it would be unusual for the carriage to
    share a way with the tailstock. Mine of course
    was worn down so much that it wasn't just touching, it had worn its own relief there.
    It had become a way surface.

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    Well I can say for sure that my saddle rides on the front flat. I blued it up (very thin) and cranked the saddle over and it transferred.
    Of course my ways are fairly worn, so I guess that this may be from the wear. But it sure looks like it was meant to ride on them to me.
    As for oil line I cna't say without removing the sadddle. I'll be pulling it this weekend and I'll check then.
    Steve

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    I should also add that mine has way wipers on this surface too.
    Someone was telling me or I read recently that they had 6 oil lines, I can't remember where I saw it....
    Steve
    If I have to edit this post one more time I'm gonna go back to bed

    [This message has been edited by andromeda (edited 10-01-2003).]

    [This message has been edited by andromeda (edited 10-01-2003).]

    [This message has been edited by andromeda (edited 10-01-2003).]

    [This message has been edited by andromeda (edited 10-01-2003).]

  11. #8

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    I was able to slip a .004" feeler gage between the carriage and inside flat way on my 16"CY. This machine also has an oil line going to the way, and it has an adjustable gib on the bottom side. My 12"CK, which is currently being reconditioned, is constructed in the same manner, however the carriage slide is severely scored, and there is currently a .030" gap from the carriage being raised with Garlock Multifil Tape(a PTFE filled material like Turcite) which will be filled with the Multifil Tape. Whether I scrape to bear or clear is now up in the air.
    The question begs to be asked; Why lube the way if it doesn't bear? Is there that much flex in the bridge under a heavy cut, that this limits the amount of flex, and the flat bears when in such a situation thus needing lube, and at other times it clears thus reducing the amount of wear?
    As Russ related, my EE also has lube to the inside flat way.
    The front V has a lube line over the top and the faces of the carriage V slide are cross drilled to the line so that each face has lube.
    Harry

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    I think this needs to be answered by [email protected]
    Monarch. Can you hear me, Scott? Please help
    us clear up this mystery.

    [This message has been edited by daryl bane (edited 10-01-2003).]

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    Here is a point of interest. On some lathes there are oil holes that are there to allow the oil to completely fill a feed groove. I suspect that the oil hole to the flat way provides a sort of vent that allowes for full filling of the oil holes "up stream" Also provides some oil to the bed ahead of the tailstock and to keep the wipers (keeps stray chips from under the carrige) moist. My suggestion is to not make it a bearing! The only result of making this flat have contac would be to reduce the effect of the "V" way. (greater chance for side movement by limiting the real contac of the "V" way) You would always want the wear of the bed and carrige to follow only the outer "V" way. Ross

  14. #11

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    Talked to Monarch yesterday, and the flat way question was raised. There is suppposed to be a gap between the carriage and the way, it does not bear. I asked how big the gap and his opinion was .030" or so. I think .004" or .005" is more reasonable. I asked about the gib in this location on the CK and CY and was told that it is a "scraper" and it is spring loaded, maybe on other models, but my CK & CY are not set up with springs.
    Harry

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    I was looking at clocker2's pictures of the underside of his carriage. It sure looks like
    the carriage rides on the tailstock flat way, there is even a oil groove. A another mystery.

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    Yup. Sure enough, this morning I took off the wipers for that way. "My" saddle is in fact bearing down on that way as well. I will make sure that this way will receive oil, either automatically or othewise. (oilcan).
    Incidentally, there is an extra outlet in the manifold (currently with a plug) that could be used for a 6th line. You guys could do some modification to route another tube to a port that you guys drill for this way if you are concerned about lubrication at this point.
    On another note, there seems to be plenty of oil on that flat way, but that could be just because when I put the saddle back on, I knew that I would be shuttling it back and forth so I oiled up all points of contact prior to assembly. Perhaps the oil that I am seeing is from that "pre-oiling". I will keep an eye on that detail. I'll wipe down that way as I run the carriage up and down and see if the oil disappears.
    Jeff

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    According to the people at Monarch, the inside flat carriage slide does not bear on the bed's inside flat way. The only reason I can see for the oil line to the way is to help flush it of chips, and perhaps provide lube as the machine wears and this slide starts to bear. Monarch's solution is to pull the carriage and take a milling cut to restore the clearance. It really seems a stop measure, only good for the short run. If this is left unattended to, I can see the carriage being lifted off the front V way causing greater inaccuracy than what is really there. I think I would take a good hard look at the bed and carriage to see how bad things really are.
    Harry

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    I resurrected this thread as it addresses my question: Why is there oil grooves in the inside carriage flat? Anyone have any more info on this? One spare carriage I have clearly has the z-shaped grooves there, but no oil line to them.

    Having just serviced the pump on my modular 10EE, I became paranoid that this particular passage was blocked, when all the others were pushing out more than enough oil. The gap is .009 between bed's tailstock flat way & inner carriage small flat.

    Got me thinking how much I had forgotten when I serviced the MG 10EE oiling system.

    Have some 10EE's had oil actually pumped to this slot? I even remember a pic showing no groove there...

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    I think this thread has been answered above, both by Harry and by Ross. The only thing that might be added is that the flat serves as a limit stop for flexing of the saddle during really aggressive cuts. If the gap is .004" as suggested above, and if the saddle did flex enough to contact the flat, a .004" drop in the cutter height would have a very small effect on the turning diameter.

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  22. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    I resurrected this thread as it addresses my question: Why is there oil grooves in the inside carriage flat? Anyone have any more info on this? One spare carriage I have clearly has the z-shaped grooves there, but no oil line to them.

    Having just serviced the pump on my modular 10EE, I became paranoid that this particular passage was blocked, when all the others were pushing out more than enough oil. The gap is .009 between bed's tailstock flat way & inner carriage small flat.

    Got me thinking how much I had forgotten when I serviced the MG 10EE oiling system.

    Have some 10EE's had oil actually pumped to this slot? I even remember a pic showing no groove there...
    Not a 10ee, but my series 61 has the z oil groove and an oil line to it. Whether wear or not, I'm not sure, but I think it rides on the bed, didn't try to jam a feeler gauge in. Here's a pic after I got the lines unplugged, and was pumping atf through it to clean it out:

    225.jpg

    Interesting thread you resurrected, hadn't considered the points above. Edit** I can get a .007" feeler gauge in head stock side, and .010" tail stock side, of front flat way. That's just the carriage, no apron or T/A mounted yet.

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  24. #18
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    My 1956 did not have a z groove on the flat portion. Could it be that in later years the zig-zag was added as place to allow chips to settle so there was less chance of damage to the surfaces? The South Bend micrometer stops have a groove in the threads for that reason, to help catch chips.

    Steve at Monarch has always answered my questions in less than a day. Why not email him and ask.

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