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    Default Scissio.com selling complete module (black) boxes now

    I have made a few posts about Tim Jones products for the 10ee and I think I will post one more at the risk of being called an investor in his business (as a customer, I suppose I am).

    Tim appears to have stopped selling his kits and is now selling complete module boxes, or black boxes or whatever you want to call them.

    Spindle Module Replacement

    For that price, I think we modular owners are very lucky to have him as a valuable resource. His thyratron replacements are just as good, and I am sure he is hard at work in his laboratory developing a version that has a flashing purple glow to satisfy the oldest of old timers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John S01 View Post
    I have made a few posts about Tim Jones products for the 10ee and I think I will post one more at the risk of being called an investor in his business (as a customer, I suppose I am).

    Tim appears to have stopped selling his kits and is now selling complete module boxes, or black boxes or whatever you want to call them.

    Spindle Module Replacement

    For that price, I think we modular owners are very lucky to have him as a valuable resource. His thyratron replacements are just as good, and I am sure he is hard at work in his laboratory developing a version that has a flashing purple glow to satisfy the oldest of old timers.
    Holding out for the purple glow.

    You have these installed? And no issues? My drive is in perfect condition. But a peace of mind in having replacements on standby isn’t a bad idea.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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    Quote Originally Posted by John S01 View Post
    I have made a few posts about Tim Jones products for the 10ee and I think I will post one more at the risk of being called an investor in his business (as a customer, I suppose I am).

    Tim appears to have stopped selling his kits and is now selling complete module boxes, or black boxes or whatever you want to call them.

    Spindle Module Replacement

    For that price, I think we modular owners are very lucky to have him as a valuable resource. His thyratron replacements are just as good, and I am sure he is hard at work in his laboratory developing a version that has a flashing purple glow to satisfy the oldest of old timers.
    LOL! I'd guess it would be done with LED's these days- even my tea-kettle has an array of blue LEDS!

    But I am also old enough to remember a time when Allied Radio's "dream book" dead-tree catalog still listed Argon glow lamps for.... "whatever the Hell it was" that Argon glow lamps were meant to be utilized for!


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    Does this mean he has a source of connectors so that I don’t have to send in my old one?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by rklopp View Post
    Does this mean he has a source of connectors so that I don’t have to send in my old one?
    Should have. Kinda SCARY how many families of connectors are "out there" actually.

    That's mostly detective work as to "which" stock ones Monarch adopted.

    They weren't "really" proprietary any more than those on a missile system, weather station, nor on telephone central office gear were.

    Just not Radio Shack nor electrical power distributor "common".

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    Quote Originally Posted by rklopp View Post
    Does this mean he has a source of connectors so that I don’t have to send in my old one?
    Look at the link

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    Quote Originally Posted by scott.burback View Post
    Holding out for the purple glow.

    You have these installed? And no issues? My drive is in perfect condition. But a peace of mind in having replacements on standby isn’t a bad idea.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I have had his thyratron replacements (2) and black box running in my 1961 10ee for at least 6 months. I thought the thyratrons worked better, but I think one of my tubes was wearing out. I had observed that I get much finer rpm control in the low range. The black box just works, I can't say I've notice a difference, but I have a tin ear for these things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    But I am also old enough to remember a time when Allied Radio's "dream book" dead-tree catalog still listed Argon glow lamps for.... "whatever the Hell it was" that Argon glow lamps were meant to be utilized for!
    Pretty sure they were used as a UV source. I recall one that was used in a laundry dryer my folks had in the 60's, I presume that the intent was to sterilize the wash or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rke[pler View Post
    Pretty sure they were used as a UV source. I recall one that was used in a laundry dryer my folks had in the 60's, I presume that the intent was to sterilize the wash or something.
    Could was. NIKE missile Battery Control van had sumthin' like that for illuminating the control panels. No "backlighting", on an originally 1940's era Radar gun director adapted to missiles. They just filled in all the engravings on dials and switches with a UV-responsive paint that glowed greenish white off the UV in the overhead.

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    I simply do not believe that those tube replacement actually replaces tubes, maybe they will turn the spindle and one can pretend to have the problem solved, but, I bet they wont hold up to the capability of the machine.....like high speed threading using the ELSR.
    The spindle on a Southbend will certainly turn and cut metal, but with a Monarch ee there is a lot more to it then just that. You can take command of most any situation,

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I simply do not believe that those tube replacement actually replaces tubes, maybe they will turn the spindle and one can pretend to have the problem solved,
    Everything I know agrees, just not for the same reason.
    but, I bet they wont hold up to the capability of the machine.....like high speed threading using the ELSR.
    They should do that easily as well as the tubes do. The same power is in the same place, being integrated under the pulses by the same transformer and the same motor.

    The REAL difference is what they are almost certainly doing over time TO the windings OF the motor.

    SCR's switch differently than Argon Thyristors as to shape of their "curve".

    The "hollow state" WiaD and Module drive systems were "integrated" by experts of their age to live with such switching waveform artifacts as they actually produced.

    Their motors all pre-date "inverter duty" and "Rectified Power Motor" (RPM) designs, yet they have not shown much in the way of evidence of harm over VERY long years of use, some of it multiple-shift HARD use.

    Which tells me the Monarch/Reliance design team did their homework, and the tube drives are NOT hard on motors.

    SCR drives are ruder.

    The only Beel/BICL D510 I had hands-on, doing a goodwill repair to bridge a dispute between Jonathan Easar in Canada and a US customer, used a dirt-simple one-direction packaged SCR bridge (which had failed). About $78, qty one. An SSD's MOV costs more than that.

    Only two diodes of that packaged bridge were "controlled", the other two Diodes in that full-wave-bridge package simply free wheeled. All it needed for unidirectional output, external contactors doing the reversing.

    Same as WiaD or Module drive.

    There only needed to be ONE trigger inductor. Or two, paired half-wave bridges as ISTR the Monarch tube drives are? But ....

    ... the D510 drive left around 120 Volts or more of raggedy-ass "AC component" trash on its output side.

    More than just a guess, but I don't think a 'scope would find the WiaD nor Modular drives, both ALSO "contactor reversing" or "1Q" drives to be carrying anywhere NEAR that sort of fast-rise leading edge switching-artifact trash towards the motor. "Insulation piercing" those spikes can be, given time and opportunity.

    The drop-in SCR's OTOH? I'd expect sharper switching spikes than the tubes.

    Not sure how MUCH more hash, but it is probably "there".

    Which is a major part of why I stress the need for what Reliance and Eurotherm/Parker both say is needed. That "ripple filter" AKA big fat CHOKE.

    WITH such a choke, the Beel/BICL D510 was "tamed" down to only about 40 Volts of AC component. But it was no longer sharp-edged to harm the motor.

    The Eurotherm/Parker-SSD 514C? Had only a fraction of such noise to begin with,

    Well .. it has EIGHT trigger inductors for its more complex SCR bridge matrix. Four times as many, each direction. It was smoother from the outset.

    And down to only about SIX VOLTS of DC ripple once the choke went into series with the Armature.

    Bottom line?

    If one is to utilize Solid State drop-ins to replace Hollow-State ones?

    I suggest adding the ripple filter - as used with full-house "packaged" SCR drives - it is probably every bit as useful as to insuring the older motors live longer.

    Not to put TOO fine a point on that, but Reliance themselves spec the ripple-filter as a REQUIRED item, even on the latest of "RPM III" DC motors purpose-built for rectified power, and for all windings above 180 VDC.

    Now.. I do not HAVE a Modular drive with which to compare Tube to SCR.

    What I do have is a 4-trace Rigol 'Scope with US-made HV probes I could ship to Walla Walla for a month or several. I have other scopes, just not as nice to use in the meanwhile.

    Heavier to ship, but I still have the Hammond 20 mH 20A choke twin to the one donated for everettengr's 5 HP GE kinematic motored Modular conversion to Parker-SSD.

    How much time yah got between scraping rust off Old Iron to put some hard numbers and scope-screen capture shots toward a fair comparison for the record?

    I surely don't expect yah to lend your Modular 10EE clear from "Left" coast to "Eats" Coast, hard as the heavy 10EE are on USPS "Flat rate" boxes!


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    There is a schematic and circuit description PDF on the page linked in my post if interested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John S01 View Post
    There is a schematic and circuit description PDF on the page linked in my post if interested.
    Aye, but.. Unless Tim recorded before and after 'scope traces of the waveforms, already.. his SCR's are in a circuit originally designed around TUBES.

    Which means the SCR makers' OWN published "reference circuits" do not fully apply.

    Annnd.. there's is only but so much tweaking yah can do to an SCR's performance nature before the inevitability of that great lump of Iron and Copper is all that really gets the job DONE.

    Yah want REALLY smooth Dee Cee, no "rotating power" MG?

    Yah adds the REST of the published Yaskawa/Magnetek "Quiet elevator" circuit.

    Coupla hundred MFD of good non-polarized and highly spike-resistant capacitors.

    Now yah have the classical single-stage choke-input low-pass filter.

    BTDTGTTS. US-made caps, even.

    There wasn't enough improvement LEFT to chase as justified my adding age and stress life-limited caps. Not when the choke alone was good enough and doesn't much care about age atall.

    "Complicated", BTW, is the Lenze "swinging" choke as first stage, WITH the caps, Hammond fixed choke as second stage, SECOND bank of caps, choke-input filter on the FIELD supply as well.

    The growly sound of accel or decell moves from the precious motor back to the commodity-produced chokes.

    Given my test-bench was usually long-lined to the 10EE by fifteen feet of wire?

    Loudest sound, unloaded, perceived at the operator position became the swish of the angular-contact spindle bearings. Yah can LISTEN to what the tool is tellin' yah when in the cut.

    But Deaf as I've gone? I need to re-do all that with my Sound Pressure Level meter!

    Love to take the piss outta the Hardinge Brothers Boys with their silent toys over a serious lathe being able to run stealthy-quiet, too!

    It's why I don't much need Carbides. y'see.

    Ninja Tanting G or clever Crucible HSS Cobalt can sneak-up on an unsuspecting tough-alloy and cold-cock the sumbich before it even knows it is about to be chip-ripped!



    Tubes ain't coming back. Not cheaply, anyway. Already too hard to find good 'uns.

    Tim's goods ARE a part of "the future". Waaay lower cost than whole-hog packaged DC Drive conversions, plus near-zero labour hassle.

    I'd just like to see them get even BETTER - overall "system" is all.

    Prolly all it needs as a minimum is the simpler chokes of the sort Jim Rozen and others have wound onto black-Iron pipe?

    Doesn't HAVE to be "quiet". Just safer for the motors.

    Knock even just the fast-rise leading-edge spikes down, and the motor gets to live longer.

    That's the "Holy Grail".

    Can't afford new Type T Dee Cee motors. Nor maybe even a rewind?

    Why d'you think I've been hoarding 100% spare 3 HP large-frames?

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    Note to self, don't "Like" Thermite Posts, he doesn't need the encouragement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John S01 View Post
    Note to self, don't "Like" Thermite Posts, he doesn't need the encouragement.
    Note to public: 13,000 or so in, all up?

    Thermite/Monarchist/Procrastinator just doesn't give a damn, either way.

    Not until Milacron offers to convert them to air-miles, anyway!


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    Some of you raise valid points. The truth is, I have not done much research into the edge behaviour of the thyratron replacements beyond the initial waveform measurements that I made several years ago when I was doing the designs.

    Thermite, on the point of possible motor damage, I don't have a definitive answer and think it would be useful to do some further testing as you suggest. I suspect that while the SCRs certainly do switch quite a bit faster than the C16J tubes, this is probably irrelevant as far as the motor is concerned which, as a DC commutator design, is subject to and must withstand quite a bit of transient abuse that probably far exceeds anything the SCRs are doing. Again, this is just my speculation and I have no evidence at the moment to support it one way or the other. I will try to do some testing that might shed some light on the issue and report back when I have something.

    Donie, you have raised the question of whether a solid state replacement can really do the job under conditions that may put the lathe under the serious industrial strength stress that it was designed for. It is true that vacuum tubes in general are seriously robust where solid state devices are not. I remember in college watching my professor take a blow torch to a functioning vacuum tube and melt it in front of our eyes to demonstrate that exact point. It was a very impressive demonstration. The tube kept functioning until it was little more than a pile of melted glass. Solid state devices just can't do that.

    That all said, and in no way diminishing my sincere respect for vacuum tubes, I am confident of the replacements' ability to perform. I and others have attempted to exercize them at the limits of the machine. At this point there are also many sets out in the field some of which are being used in industrial situations with no failures that I am aware of.


    Finally, addressing the issue of "GLOW". I love the glow of the original tubes. It also provides a useful visual indicator of function which I miss on the replacements. I actually did a few designs that incorporated a lighted feature but abandoned the idea because of the excessive complication that I felt it introduced. The vacuum tubes glow brighter when there is more current. An obvious approach in the solid state design is to turn on a light during the time that the device is in conduction. With this approach, the "on" time is proportional to the current so the light would mimick the function of the varying glow in the original tube. Unfortunately, when the SCR is "On" or triggered, the voltage accross it is brought to zero. This implies that to have a light on during the time that the SCR is on (and the voltage accross it is zero) you need some method of storing energy up during the SCR "off" period. It is certainly possible to do this, but it just adds complication and cost for not much improvement in function. If any brilliant person out there has a (simple) idea on this, Ii would love to hear it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Jones View Post
    Some of you raise valid points. The truth is, I have not done much research into the edge behaviour of the thyratron replacements beyond the initial waveform measurements that I made several years ago when I was doing the designs.

    Thermite, on the point of possible motor damage, I don't have a definitive answer and think it would be useful to do some further testing as you suggest. I suspect that while the SCRs certainly do switch quite a bit faster than the C16J tubes, this is probably irrelevant as far as the motor is concerned which, as a DC commutator design, is subject to and must withstand quite a bit of transient abuse that probably far exceeds anything the SCRs are doing. Again, this is just my speculation and I have no evidence at the moment to support it one way or the other. I will try to do some testing that might shed some light on the issue and report back when I have something.
    Thanks, Tim. I'm actually FROM the era when "Hollow State" was still clocking "design wins" for new goods, so... "speculation" wasn't an option. We had to JFDW the new tech's foibles as we walked through the tedious adopting of it and got bloody hunks of muscle bitten right out of our daring corporate arses.

    The potential damage is that of very sharp, very fast rise-time leading edges wherein the excursion is so narrow in the time-domain to have very little energy under the "curve" (where "curve" looks like a thin LINE on a 'scope), but.. as an "overshoot", has the potential to pierce the insulating varnish on the leads and windings.

    It happens on older AC motors with rudely-behaved VFD as well.

    "Trailing" edge of each pulse is not a problem - either of Vacuum tube or SCR - as it occurs where it is caused - the zero-cross of power being transferred, either tribe of "pass element" dropping out of conduction until triggered ON - abruptly - at the next cycle.

    "Sharpest" of such spikes? Somewhere around half power. Whatever point the command to conduct hits the pulse's incoming half-Sine-wave at its maximum excursion and greatest level of "instantaneous slope" AKA energy.

    At "max" power, the conduction is commanded almost at once so as to pass essentially ALL of that half-Sine wave. That's actually EASIER on the motor. Much less overshoot when the switching ON takes place before the pulse has any serious excursion to it above zero.

    So this is where you look with a 'scope. At half power or so, not at min or max power. And where do we run them? Mostly right IN those midrange zones, sadly.

    Shackleton Systems - the "SSD" in Eurotherm or Parker - and "not only" - have been spec'ing "ripple filter" inductors AKA "chokes" for their SCR drives for Donkey's Years. You never see the same from the legions of 90/180 VDC output drives, US market.

    What yah DO get are "Corcom" style hash filters to place on the LINE side instead. KB even house-branded 'em.

    OUTPUT side, it seems to be a "threshold" after multiplying thing.

    And it is the note on the Reliance "RPM" MOTOR tear sheets that closes the loop. As 'inverter duty" robust a line of Dee CEE motors as ever was?

    Ripple filters are specified on ALL RPM III motors ABOVE those wound for 180 VDC.

    So it seems to be the ratios of spike excursion off the back of the input level hitting the threshold of what the insulation can stand.

    At and below 180 VDC, the magnitude of the spike is not high enough to pierce the insulation used - which is probably much the same, most NEW motors.

    Somewhere ABOVE 180 VDC, the spikes DO have the energy to pierce the insulation. Now and then. Hither and yon. Not always. Keep rolling those dice, we'll eventually get to f**k you LATER.

    Where "later" ain't likely to be 80-odd years or so of the near-zero noise MG, nor the 50-odd years, plus, with softer-edged switching of the WiaD or Modular-controlled Thyratron drive.

    And that is so even on the newer-generation of motors built specifically as "Rectified Power Motor" (RPM) that knew at the outset they had to deal with rude-bugger power sources.

    Reliance sez they needs that ripple filter. Reliance knowed their s**t whether I do or never..


    NB: ALL or the motors Monarch used were GOOD ones. Reliance arguably the best of the lot, but also, "as usual" the most expensive motor in the room.

    But NONE of the motors Monarch used were yet designed for that level of rudeness.

    It was too "new". They had not needed to be. It takes TIME before enough pinholes have been zapped-through for damage to show up.

    The Vacuum tubes and - easily as germane - the circuit they were IN, were gentler.

    So it isn't a problem unique to your drop-in SCR's.

    It is probably WORSE on MOST higher-voltage SCR packaged drives where almost NO ONE has been aware of nor heeding the drive and motor maker's specifying use of that filter inductor. For decades, already, even.

    Rest of the word just uses those higher line Voltages more often that we do, here - on "small goods"" anyway. Far more Reliance RPM series out there at 230 to 500 Volts than 180, heavy industrial use.

    So ANY SCR drive running around 200 VDC and up that is not so protecting
    even the NEWER RPM III motors WITH the recommended filter?

    Guess we could class those as "maintenance time-bombs"?



    Lot of goodness in restoring what Monarch Plus Reliance & other helpers had already tested and time has since proved durable as well as good, yah?

    Could be one is ahead to spend on a ripple filter for ANY SCR-class DC drive... or pay a high multiple of its cost LATER for a rewind and still need it?

    Seems so.

    FWIW-not-much? Except for my four 3 HP "large-frame" nominal 230 VDC 10EE motors?

    Whole lot MORE Dee Cee motors are hiding-out under my roof.

    And every dang one of them is 180 VDC, no higher.

    No boost transformer needed. No filter choke needed.

    Downside? Just about double the space and mass of the 230-280 VDC goods Monarch used!

    OTOH? Reliance Electric and Engineering Dee Cee motors take up waaay less space than 8 or 9 vintage Duesenberg, Packard, or Pierce-Arrow motorcars, let alone a Hackercraft inboard speedboat, Staggerwing Beech or a PBY Catalina.

    I'm good with that. Can't have ALL the good stuff in life.


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    If you have specs for a choke for a large frame Reliance 3HP motor, please post.

    Cal

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    I don't see how anyone could possibly argue that solid state spindle motor control is inferior to tube tech.

    I'd speculate that 99.999% of all round parts made since the late 60's have been made without tube tech.

    CNC's have beautiful finishes, perfect control and WAY more power than old manual stuff ever dreamed of having. My big lathe is fed with 2/0 copper wire. That's 80 Horseponies and all that juice goes through a spindle drive that's smaller than my old Stereo receiver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal Haines View Post
    If you have specs for a choke for a large frame Reliance 3HP motor, please post.

    Cal
    We have. Values are not all that critical.

    This one is "universal", all motors or drives 10EE used up to 20 FLA and a bit, conservatively rated:

    Hammond Reactor

    195M20

    20 mH @ 20 A DC

    Good for use with all of the 10EE motors, 3 HP (one of mine) or 5 HP (everettengrs' 5 HP GE Kinematic, see thread). Smooths 'em out, tames the spikes.

    The UK & European distributors list others. Values & SKU are listed right in the drive catalogs for each power range.

    "Eastern Transformer" is one source. I suspect that is more likely to be PR China where "the East is Red" than East Saxe, UK where the "East is wet"?

    Hammond is what is readily available, North America.

    My preference, but I can no longer easily find more of them are "swinging" or load-variable chokes.

    Lenze 15062 40 mH @ 10A, 10 mH @ 18 A

    ...as used on my 3 HP "overvolted" test mule.

    Should be "OK", if only just, with the 5 HP motors with FLA of around 18.5 A.

    Lenze 310-331 24 mH @ 6A, 8 mH @ 10 A.

    Marginal for the 12+ FLA 3 HP motors, but it works OK if a bit warmish when over-driven.

    There will be others.

    Mind the max amperage rating, and expect around 6 VDC of insertion loss, Ohmic+inductance.

    Inductance value is not as critical.

    Those in the "milli-not-micro" Henry range smooth out the running as well as protect the motor from switching spikes.
    Nice benefit combo for 1-P drives, 2-pulse or better.

    Anything in the "micro-not-milli" Henry range should AT LEAST tame the spikes, but won't do much for the noise or rougher running of Single-Phase drives.
    All a 3-Phase drive needs. Some have as many as 24 pulses per incoming line CPS, not just the minimum of six.

    Not as smooth as an MG. Nothing else is, either, but 3-P DC Drives are pretty good. Just not easy to find under 10HP, and not cheap even when one can do.


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