seperating 10ee genny from motor
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    Default seperating 10ee genny from motor

    I now have a 1942 10ee, it's in need of some attention but i've ran worse when i made chips every day. At the moment the plan is to make it run. I've considered the freq drives, rpc and looked at the stickey about changing the motor to run on 220 single phase. I have a different idea, i'd like to alter the mg set, remove the 440 side, move the endbell down to make the genny it's own unit and then couple a 220 single phase to the genny.

    Has this been attempted? Any thoughts would be appreciated but it seems it might be an option or am i nuts.

    Also, any descent solvents to ease disolving the 60+ years of grungy build up. I'm switching between mineral spirits and water, guessing the build up is a combination of old coolants, some water base and some oil base.

    As for what i know about it so far, X backlash is about .030, the carriage oil pump works but doesn't feed the rear flat way. Small damage to the taper attachment adjusting gear but probably not enought to warrant a new gear and rack.

    Myself, i started out on in a shop that had hlv's and chuckers, changed shops and was placed on an Axleson, my first engine lathe, little did i realize how nice of a machine it was. From the discriptions i've read i guessing the 10ee will be a combination of the hlv and the axleson, really hoping i'm right but everything points that way. I did almost 20 years in shops running everything from the small hlv to a floor bar, jig bore's and devlieg's. some day's i really miss it.

    Thanks to all who've shared thier info in other posts, this site is great resource.

    And i'm fairly certain i'll have more questions. Thanks all, back to scrubing.

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    At least on mine the motor was on the same shaft as the generator. It did not pull apart into two separate units.

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    Expecting to cut the shaft after removing the windings from the ac side then shorten the housing to relocate the end bell

    MG is out, just need to do some house work now.

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    You ever attempt this? I decided that the best way forward with my machine in my situation at this time is a VFD and an AC motor. Before I decided that, I did consider what you described above. Seems like it should work, assuming the new motor can be mounted. I even have a motor that I considered using.

    Dave

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    John,

    What's wrong with the motor part of the MG?

    Cal

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    That's got to be more work than converting the 3 phase motor to work on single phase.
    Look at this pic..



    The motor and generator are on the same shaft, in the same case. If you are tearing into the thing this far, just do the simple change to the windings and add the capacitor. I guarantee it will be cheaper (about $40)and immensely easier with no machining, fabricating and purchasing a 5hp single phase motor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johninwi View Post
    I now have a 1942 10ee, it's in need of some attention but i've ran worse when i made chips every day. At the moment the plan is to make it run. I've considered the freq drives, rpc and looked at the stickey about changing the motor to run on 220 single phase. I have a different idea, i'd like to alter the mg set, remove the 440 side, move the endbell down to make the genny it's own unit and then couple a 220 single phase to the genny.
    Doable. Single-phase conversion 'the hardest way known', though.

    Your 3600 RPM 5 HP Single Phase motor will need an extended snout out the arse-end and supplemental cooling, regardless. Just one of those conservative/optimistic continuous load rating things.

    Make more sense to pull the MG, skid mount and remote it like legacy Ward-Leonard drives were BEFORE Reliance introduced their unitary 'fireplug' around 1934. See 'inline exciter' 10EE. Picture it stood vertical. Or go see Reliance history. There's an illustration.

    Can't say I see the point.

    A Steelman-Hass wiring alteration could be done for less total work. No chips involved. Near-zero out-of-pocket for parts. Proven successful, and more than once.

    It could even be optioned in a manner that allowed external selective termination for EITHER 1-P or 3-P running, and would remain smoother on either power source.

    7.5 HP to 10 HP Idlered RPC is fewer man-hours of work yet, not a great deal of cash.

    10 HP Phase-Perfect, used, cost me about double what the all-new-parts RPC did, but as with the RPC, has myriad OTHER uses.

    That's all related to my 1943 10EE.


    The 1942 runs on Eurotherm/Parker-SSD DC Drives off boost transformers with serious load-side reactive filtering.

    And noooooo it has NONE of the issues or limitations of a Beel/BICL D510 or K-B-Penta drive.


    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    A Steelman-Hass wiring alteration could be done for less total work. No chips involved. Near-zero out-of-pocket for parts. Proven successful, and more than once.
    It is Steelman-HAAS.

    The conversion has been documented:

    1) in a 230/460 version form (schematics), and

    2) in a step-by-step form, with LOTS pf photos and the design of a special tool to press-out the armature.

    I prefer full-strength Pine-Sol for crud removing. Rinse with really hot water. Blow dry with compressed air. Complete this process with a quarter hour in the oven on low,

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterh5322 View Post
    It is Steelman-HAAS.
    Apologies, Peter. I USUALLY get it right - missed that one...

    The conversion has been documented:
    And it 'Just Works'. No failures or performance issues yet reported at all, are there?

    Bill

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    "And it 'Just Works'. No failures or performance issues yet reported at all, are there?"


    Yes, it does indeed "just work".

    The original idea for a three- to single-phase motor conversion was due to Henry A. Steelman.

    His company supplied thousands of motors and controllers to irrigation districts and oilfields, and similar premises, beginning many years ago.

    I adapted his 100-percent duty-cycle concept to a much lower duty-cycle machine tool application, and additionally, I added power factor correction to the design.

    When employed to power a 10EE, where it usually has a reasonably low duty-cycle, the conversion is expected to last a lifetime.

    The "cost" is mainly in the "sweat equity" of the conversion process, as the total parts cost is very low.

    Very low cost, yet the conversion has already been proven to deliver 100-percent of nameplate power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterh5322 View Post
    "And it 'Just Works'. No failures or performance issues yet reported at all, are there?"


    Yes, it does indeed "just work".

    The original idea for a three- to single-phase motor conversion was due to Henry A. Steelman.

    His company supplied thousands of motors and controllers to irrigation districts and oilfields, and similar premises, beginning many years ago.

    I adapted his 100-percent duty-cycle concept to a much lower duty-cycle machine tool application, and additionally, I added power factor correction to the design.

    When employed to power a 10EE, where it usually has a reasonably low duty-cycle, the conversion is expected to last a lifetime.
    With little more than cleaning and the normal and ordinary brush replacement every 2,000 power-on-hours, yes.

    No being held-hostage to availability of scarcer every year vacuum tubes. No solid-state drive vulnerability to the odd air-mass thunderstorm side-effects. Less confusion in the ranks as WiaD, Modular, or Solid-State DC Drive or VFD go pear-shaped, multiple years after we've forgotten how we wired, programmed, or last tested their parameters.

    The "cost" is mainly in the "sweat equity" of the conversion process, as the total parts cost is very low.

    Very low cost, yet the conversion has already been proven to deliver 100-percent of nameplate power.
    Far, far less 'sweat equity' than fabbing gearbox to 3-P motor mounting plates, and no need to already own a decent milling machine to make that happen.

    Far short of 100% guarantee that I have the time and energy left, but two more are on the menu for the Halibut.

    The one that looks to be in rather decent shape in recently arrived EE 25152, 1943 Round-Dial with ELSR. Keeping that intact end-to-end and doing only the Steelman-Haas conversion is also a lazy man's route, and I are he.

    As 100% spare for it, alteration to the original MG retained from EE 17120 1942 Round-Dial when it was converted to Eurotherm/Parker-SSD drives. Also a lazy move. Do two side-by side, easier for an OF to check configuration before, during, after in stages.

    Why bother? MG are acoustically noisy, and somewhat wasteful as to end-to-end conversion efficiency?

    True. But "BFD".

    Retiree/hobby/small shop infrequent use rather than wartime 3-shift, continuous duty is now their lot.
    At prevailing US Utility KWH rates the conversion loss is not even close to a game-changer.

    Meanwhile, the 'rotary sourced power' of the Ward-Leonard system is seriously difficult to match, let alone BEAT for smooth final-drive output at realistic speed ranges. Typically 300 to 1500 RPM. Not pulling tree stumps or playing at High Speed Machining.

    B'lieve I can even find a lower-sone route to cooling the b***h as well.

    Noise-reduction was not a priority for the environment they entered for War Two and Korean War.
    Folks listened to the roar of the OTHER denizens of large machine-halls during a shift. "Torch-singers" and big-band were on the radio or phonograph AFTER work in those pre-ear-bud days.

    DAMHIKT

    My 10EE's are not THAT much older than I am.



    Bill

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    "My 10EE's are not THAT much older than I am."

    Haas's ex-factory = 1945

    Machine #1's ex-factory = 1956 (WiaD "toolroom" ... turn/face/bore/threading)

    Machine #2's ex-factory = 1945 (M-G, "Manufacturing" ... turn/face/bore only, no threading)

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterh5322 View Post
    "My 10EE's are not THAT much older than I am."

    Haas's ex-factory = 1945

    Machine #1's ex-factory = 1956 (WiaD "toolroom" ... turn/face/bore/threading)

    Machine #2's ex-factory = 1945 (M-G, "Manufacturing" ... turn/face/bore only, no threading)
    Ditto on 1945.

    Thanks to absorbing Maynah's low-height round-dial part-out, 'just in case' my '42 or '43 would need some (doesn't seem so..) I THINK I have 100% of the parts - or near-as-dammit - and 'uncommitted' that you would need to convert that 1945 10EE to 'toolroom' configuration.

    Apron & half-nuts, QCB, leadscrew, etc. etc.

    IF the spirit moves you. And it is a round-dial, of course.

    Bill

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    "IF the spirit moves you. And it is a round-dial, of course."

    12.5" height, which is likely based upon "square dial" components. I say "likely" as that is my best guess, taken along with the 12.5" "new height".

    The Reliance VS drive works pretty well, too. It is one of the more modern ones, too, including the later (final ?) DC Panel.

    Monarch was definitely right to go with the Ward-Leonard System and the Reliance VS drive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterh5322 View Post
    "IF the spirit moves you. And it is a round-dial, of course."

    12.5" height, which is likely based upon "square dial" components. I say "likely" as that is my best guess, taken along with the 12.5" "new height".
    Nought but theory as I have but low-height ones [1], but raising the CL of the spindle 'should' have affected only the positioning or tooth-count (both 'neutral' or transparent, otherwise) of but two idlers, fork-shifted spindle gearing to threading gearbox input.

    All-else "should" be unaffected by the height change. EG: Leadscrew CL, its brackets, apron, et al. Carriage wasn't altered. Only TS & HS CL.

    In theory, anyway.


    The Reliance VS drive works pretty well, too. It is one of the more modern ones, too, including the later (final ?) DC Panel.

    Monarch was definitely right to go with the Ward-Leonard System and the Reliance VS drive.
    For smoothest running, yes.

    But I can also see the customer and competitive pressure to reduce the waste heat and improve higher-RPM regulation that led to WiaD, Modular, Monarch's own Solid-State DC drives.

    Move to VFD HAD to have also taken into account how rudely expensive GOOD Type T DC motors themselves had become, regardless of how fed and managed.

    I'm still hoarding spares, but that was more to cover destructive testing - or ATTEMPTED destructive - than any other need. Large-frame 3 HP is a tough and impressive performer for all of its antique appearance.

    Bill

    [1] Or so I THOT 1942 and 1943 to be. A 'known' low-height follow rest aligned with the spindle CL.
    But both are marked 12.5" actual swing on the maker's build plates.

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    "Has this been attempted? Any thoughts would be appreciated but it seems it might be an option or am i nuts."

    IF you removed the 230/460 prime-mover and replaced it with a water wheel, the machine would still work as expected and as required.

    The Ward-Leonard System requires a simple source of power, and it need not be electric.

    BUT, in the 10EE case, the speed must be 3,600 rpm, or thereabouts, so the water wheel would need a speed increaser somewhere in the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterh5322 View Post
    "Has this been attempted? Any thoughts would be appreciated but it seems it might be an option or am i nuts."

    IF you removed the 230/460 prime-mover and replaced it with a water wheel, the machine would still work as expected and as required.

    The Ward-Leonard System requires a simple source of power, and it need not be electric.

    BUT, in the 10EE case, the speed must be 3,600 rpm, or thereabouts, so the water wheel would need a speed increaser somewhere in the system.
    'In practice'... no need to remove it. Just ballast it so it dasn't wreak havoc as it attempts to become a 3-P AC generator, add a Lovejoy o/e coupling where the exciter drive pulley lives.

    Shaft it though a grommet in the shop wall to a Chinee 5 to 7 kW one-lung gen-set Diesel already rather well governed for 3600 RPM.

    I figure with the known relative longevity of the critters involved, four to eight such screamin' meemie Diesels will expire per each 2000 power-on-hour brush-change of 10EE operation.

    Waterwheel, OTOH, has a fighting chance of outlasting the MG itself.

    No mean feat, that, given it may be another hundred years before meaningful stats on MG hard-fail accumulate.



    Bill

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    I've been away from the forum for a while, with other projects and also cleaning/inspecting the cross slide and taper attachment when i have gone back to the 10ee project.

    Whateg0, i haven't tried this yet.
    Cal, i believe the m/g is runable, the only item i found that concerned me was the large rheostat's for speed control seems to have a dead spot. I did an ohm test thru the range of the rheostat and there was a small area it didn't track. Since the original plan was to abandon the prime mover i don't believe i tested the field winding.

    Plans have changed, Flail's pic of the rotor assembly and the posts that followed have changed my mind, i will be trying the conversion to single phase. I do have concerns for the conversion thou, mostly it's the pealing wire's out of a roughly 74 year old motor. The concern i have is the old varnish insulation of the field winding, but i've not opened the motor so i need to look before jumping to conclusion's of how this may not work. Yea, i'm a bit of a pessimist.

    Worst case, the fields are bad or i mess it up and return to the original plan of seperating the m/g set.

    This is my winter project, or one of them at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johninwi View Post
    I've been away from the forum for a while, with other projects and also cleaning/inspecting the cross slide and taper attachment when i have gone back to the 10ee project.

    Whateg0, i haven't tried this yet.
    Cal, i believe the m/g is runable, the only item i found that concerned me was the large rheostat's for speed control seems to have a dead spot. I did an ohm test thru the range of the rheostat and there was a small area it didn't track. Since the original plan was to abandon the prime mover i don't believe i tested the field winding.

    Plans have changed, Flail's pic of the rotor assembly and the posts that followed have changed my mind, i will be trying the conversion to single phase. I do have concerns for the conversion thou, mostly it's the pealing wire's out of a roughly 74 year old motor. The concern i have is the old varnish insulation of the field winding, but i've not opened the motor so i need to look before jumping to conclusion's of how this may not work. Yea, i'm a bit of a pessimist.

    Worst case, the fields are bad or i mess it up and return to the original plan of seperating the m/g set.

    This is my winter project, or one of them at least.
    Shipping you one of my spare MG units, entire, would be costly, even though I'd 'donate' the MG itself.

    I also have two sets of the rheostats, though, and those are not so hard to pack and ship.

    Suggestion: RPC are cheap and cheerful to implement. a 5 HP idler will get by, a 7.5 HP the sweet spot, a 10 HP may be cheaper to find a used idler for.

    Before delving into the Steelman-Haas single-phase conversion, I'd suggest you test the overall machine that way - off an RPC - so as to track-down and adjust/repair/replace any and all OTHER worn switches, relays, wiring, brushes, commutators, etc.

    Then.. worst-case the conversion goes pear-shaped, one of us who is still harboring an MG pull-out from a part-out, VFD or DC Drive conversion can get that to you...somehow.

    As to the 1-P motor approach?

    You wouldn't actually HAVE to 'separate it' at the shaft.

    Just haul it out, relocate it externally somewhere convenient, reduce the tendency of the 3-P motor on that shaft to act as a generator (or brake), and drive right through it with a 5 or 7 HP 1-P motor Lovejoyed or belted to where the exciter-drive pulley mounts.

    An RPC would be easier. Vanilla wiring instead of shafting, belting, or machining.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by johninwi View Post
    I've been away from the forum for a while, with other projects and also cleaning/inspecting the cross slide and taper attachment when i have gone back to the 10ee project.

    Whateg0, i haven't tried this yet.
    Cal, i believe the m/g is runable, the only item i found that concerned me was the large rheostat's for speed control seems to have a dead spot. I did an ohm test thru the range of the rheostat and there was a small area it didn't track. Since the original plan was to abandon the prime mover i don't believe i tested the field winding.

    Plans have changed, Flail's pic of the rotor assembly and the posts that followed have changed my mind, i will be trying the conversion to single phase. I do have concerns for the conversion thou, mostly it's the pealing wire's out of a roughly 74 year old motor. The concern i have is the old varnish insulation of the field winding, but i've not opened the motor so i need to look before jumping to conclusion's of how this may not work. Yea, i'm a bit of a pessimist.

    Worst case, the fields are bad or i mess it up and return to the original plan of seperating the m/g set.

    This is my winter project, or one of them at least.
    Before you go the Steelman route, you might want to try running it from a "static phase converter", which is really nothing more than the motor starter part of a "rotary phase converter". It has some starting caps and a relay to get the motor running. Once you get a 3-phase motor running it will continue to turn and put out about 70% of rated HP on 2 phases. If you're not pushing the machine, that may be all you need for now.
    You'll want to add some run caps to it so you don't have issues when the load changes, etc. There are several 10EEs running from static "converters" now.

    Cal


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