Some advice needed for a member seeking a 10EE
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    Default Some advice needed for a member seeking a 10EE

    I am a new member, and I am interested in acquiring a lathe, and I saw that there was a 10EE very close to me, listed on ebay (item 303279475112). I have never owned a lathe before, except a little Unimat-SL I picked up from a neighbor. I would really like to get a lathe and learn to use it, and would not mind refurbishing part of it to learn more about how they work. I am not "new" to buying old equipment, but that equipment has usually been woodworking machines.

    The 10EE close to me (like 30 minute away) is limited on details from the auction listing. I will probably to make a visit to inspect it, assuming it does not sell in the next few days. However, I am really not sure what to look for. I understand many of these 10EE's have drive problems, and I am willing to adapt a 3-phase motor with a VFD (both of which I have spares). But I am not sure what else to look for, other than "wear" on things like the ways. Are there special things I should look for in a 10EE? Are there any specific limitations, like certain versions of the 10EE can only cut certain thread pitches, metric vs imperial? Thanks and appreciate any advice you can give.

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    Kind of a difficult multi faceted question. I can only really answer in a wide generality, but look for damage, and previous hamfisted repairs. Has it been dropped, landed on its face and then poorly repaired.? Look for wear on the alloy indicator/threading plates. If these are all scarred up/broken, this usually means its had a rough life. Are the electronics original and complete? Does it run now? A 3phase, VFD conversion will work, but you might be disapointed, especially if you can sample what a real original EE runs like. Lastly, scour this forum, learn about all the models/years, and glean as much info as you can stand. I came into this sorta like you,I wanted to get one a do a full restoration. I had experience restoring motorcycles, painting ,machining but I am a tad of a perfectionist and my EE took ten years to finish. You will need to have access to a mill and lathe to possibly make parts that are no longer available. And that is the tip of the iceberg.

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    I took a quick look, its an early square dial machine with motor generator drive,,the generator can be seen. A seemingly deluxe machine with Electric Lead Screw reverse, a nifty feature anyway..
    Some rust on the machine, but maybe not too bad. From the few crappy photos the edges of the machines carriage does not look rolled over from miles of steel going through he machine.
    I don't think the price is bad, one thing to know is the first one is the hardest to get, after that you can become a lathe junk yard if you are not careful.

    Monarch lathe 10EE | eBay

    The motor generator drive is perhaps the easiest to maintain, it uses an AC motor to run a DC generator, that through the speed control runs the variable speed spindle motor, very reliable once set up.
    Further on the threading question, the machine is an imperial threading machine, but will cut metric threads with additional metric transposing change gears, that fit to the back of the headstock.

    Somewhere I have a photo showing the heavy wear on the inner front way on my oldest machine, but the machine will still hold close tolerances on shorter lengths. The wear problem on that machine is most notable cutting a bar 12 to 14" in length, About the best I can get is .002" for variation, with it being worse where the carriage climbs up on the less worn area near the chuck.
    On the other hand, I have a newer EE that will cut the long lengths better then the factory test of .0003" in 12". The difference in sales value is dramatic between the two machines.
    I use the old worn machine much more then the newer machine. The ways on the EE are wide, the carriage is longer then the machine will cut in length, most often an EE that is way out of spec, is still better then most anything else. I have an old Unimat also, handy for tiny things.

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    I concur with donie. I hope the top rear headstock cover is just off for inspection and not missing. This would be a no go for me as they are quite rare and if a replacement was found may not fit. Also the front cover is off too. I did not see a mfg date in the description, there is a data plate to the right of that front missing cover. If you can take the rear cover off on the tailstock end , this will show exactly what kind shape the electronics are in. Donie has better eyes than me and I couldn't tell from the pics.This does seem to be a good candidate for a resto, but laddie you'd be in for a wee bit o' work.

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    I would be very tempted to buy it if it was that close to me, and I don’t need another one!

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    Thanks, everyone, for all of the good advice. I have already asked about the belt cover, and the seller has not gotten back to me. I may take a look over the weekend if the seller is available. If the cover is missing and it can not be plugged in/turned on, then I may make a vey low-ball offer. Honestly I have a ton of other things I should be doing, but sometimes you can't resist the temptation of new-old machine. On the other hand, you may just be paying someone to take their trash away...

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew-t View Post
    Thanks, everyone, for all of the good advice. I have already asked about the belt cover, and the seller has not gotten back to me. I may take a look over the weekend if the seller is available. If the cover is missing and it can not be plugged in/turned on, then I may make a vey low-ball offer. Honestly I have a ton of other things I should be doing, but sometimes you can't resist the temptation of new-old machine. On the other hand, you may just be paying someone to take their trash away...
    He started the listing at 1500 then raised the price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew-t View Post
    I am a new member, and I am interested in acquiring a lathe, and I saw that there was a 10EE very close to me, listed on ebay (item 303279475112). ...
    ... I understand many of these 10EE's have drive problems ...
    That is UTTER NONSENSE! There are an amazing number of 10EEs, many over 70 years old, that still have their original drives. It's like saying that my 1960 Ford pickup has "engine problems" because if you don't replace the points once in a while, it will stop running. If these drives had problems, they would have vanished long ago, just the the 4-cylinder engine used in the 1985 Dodge Caravan (which had carburetor problems) vanished from the streets years ago.

    As noted, this machine originally had a motor/generator (MG) drive. What problems MG drives have tend to be easy to fix. For example, the MG drives of the vintage used in the eBay 10EE have a problem with a $10 resistor burning up and causing the drive to cycle on and off. Easy to fix, but I bet more than a few of them have been taken out of service because of the problem. It doesn't help that no one at Monarch understands the drives and can't help fix a simple problem.

    Cal

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    Where is the Rev / Off / Fwd switch on this variety of square dial?

    I concur with most here get the OE MD drive going.

    I don't see much of the MG set / drive / controls in the pictures, but what I do see suggests it still exists in there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rakort View Post
    Where is the Rev / Off / Fwd switch on this variety of square dial?
    ...
    The spindle on a square-dial with ELSR is controlled by micro switches in the right bearing support casting. There's a control rod that runs through the bottom of the apron, under the feed red. A lever on the right side of the apron starts and stops the spindle via the rod and movable cams on the control rod stop the spindle when the apron moves into either one. It's a much better system the the LSR's on round-dials.

    Cal

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    That one is going to be a lot of work.....

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    I noticed a problem in the first photo, there is a freaky guy behind the lathe. I would find out if the guy comes with the machine, and find out about what Meds are needed.

    Monarch lathe 10EE | eBay

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    LOL noticed that too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    I noticed a problem in the first photo, there is a freaky guy behind the lathe. I would find out if the guy comes with the machine, and find out about what Meds are needed.

    Monarch lathe 10EE | eBay
    Yeaks!!!
    Thats funny good eye donie.

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    I think there is a bowling alley on the other side of the lathe, and someone is playing with a hairy bowling ball.

    The seller has 100% feedback you can probably rely on them to give you honest answers. One might be - would you send me a picture of the ways? and Does it run?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John S01 View Post
    The seller has 100% feedback you can probably rely on them to give you honest answers.
    His feedback is limited and the sales are all on small items. Given the extremely sparse description - "Monarch lathe. Condition is used" - that may be wishful thinking.

    The OP is only 30 minutes away, so what he should really be asking how he should eval the machine when he inspects it, and what he should take along. Evaluating a 10ee is pretty daunting for an experienced lathe user, but especially a novice. There are so many little things that may be serious or may be features, like 'why won't the crossfeed dial turn?' Has it been used for grinding? Why and where is it rusting? What's the situation with oil? It sorta looks like it may have been leaking out of the spindle for a long while. Was it ever run without oil? Hearing the story of the machine history is better done in person, when you can look the seller in the eye.

    Anyone looking for a 10ee should jump to inspect every one that comes up for sale, especially nearby, even the wrecks. Getting experience inspecting them is invaluable.

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    Here is an example of extreme bed wear on an EE!

    Inside surface of the front v way near the chuck. So much wear that the previous owner Battelle Lab, installed riser plates on the top of the compound so as to maintain factory tool height, this way the machine could share toolholders with new machines.

    The compound should be flat across its top. The plates are .080" tall, that means the carriage has dropped down that far from wear.
    The lathe is a MFG model, has no leadscrew, but somehow the fed rod seems not be in any bind.
    As much wear as the machine has, its still very useable, just around .003" woggle in 14", but still can hold tenths on short lengths. Amazing machine, been in near constant service since 1951.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    Here is an example of extreme bed wear on an EE! ...
    ... The plates are .080" tall, that means the carriage has dropped down that far from wear.
    The lathe is a MFG model, has no leadscrew, but somehow the fed rod seems not be in any bind.
    As much wear as the machine has, its still very useable, just around .003" woggle in 14", but still can hold tenths on short lengths. Amazing machine, been in near constant service since 1951.
    Donie, is this your machine?

    I bet that at some point in its life, the underside of the carriage was machined to clean up the ways and the right bearing bracket for the feed rod was dropped down to compensate. I've seen several machines, including my own, where that was done as part of a field expedient rebuild. If that's what happened, you'll find that the feed rod is lower on the tailstock end. In my case, the bracket was dropped 0.040". This works because the feed rod and leadscrew only have to flex 0.020" when the carriage is all the way to the left.

    A careful examination of my bracket shows that the bolt holes were opened up and the SHCS are now off center:
    img13704.jpg

    (sorry that the forum rotated the image)

    There's also a 0.040" gap at the top of the bracket, where there's a small step machined into the bed:
    img13706.jpg


    The dowel/taper pin hole was apparently drilled out and a larger pin fitted.

    Cal
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img13705.jpg  

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    That is my oldest lathe, I am going to take a look and see if the right bracket was lowered, it seems it had to have been lowered.
    One of the factory experts thinks the bed was not properly hardened. The wear has caused the saddle to drop down onto the flat way, I dont think its wise to do anything about that, or mess with it at all because it still works good enough most of the time.
    I found its nice to have an old clunker to do the more nasty stuff on, and use the old machine to rough out parts, then transfer the part and chuck to a less worn machine, helping preserve the accuracy of the newer machine.

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    I purchased a 10ee parts-lathe in order to get a few knobs and bits for my 'keeper' 10ee.
    The parts-lathe: #14756 4/1942 production, the keeper 10ee 11/1941 production, #11855.


    When I picked the lathe up, it was pointed out just how badly worn the bed and mostly the saddle were. The front 'V' way had worn enough that the saddle was not only 'resting on' the flat-way for the tailstock, it had ground a .050" groove into the bottom of the saddle, to the point that the 'S'-shaped oil groove was nonexistent. The 'v' way had worn so bad in the carriage/saddle that the top of the inverted 'V' was touching the bottom of the opposite 'V'.

    In the attached image the deep worn groove from the tailstock's front flat-way is easy to see. Also look at each end of the 'V' way, you can see the machining is worn away in bottom of the 'V'.

    It was suggested by Cal, and from reading Donnie's posts about using his tired 10ee for 'rough' work, that I could use this 10ee for a dedicated post-grinding machine, or for rough work.
    So I first got the MG drive working, and while it is a tired old lathe, it does run well and probably can be used as I intend to use it.

    Next, I decided to see just how bad the wear was on the carriage.
    First I inverted the saddle on my mill, and figured out how to clamp it down securely, Then I milled about .020" off the saddle where it had been dragging on the Tailstock's front flat-way. once this clearance was available, I put the saddle back on the bed.. with clearance on the saddle to the flat-way, the carriage/saddle now rested on the top of the inverted 'V'. AND on the flat just at the base of the front 'V' way,
    Another setup of the saddle on the mill's table, and a pass made on the narrow flat at the inside of the 'V' way And an equal amount taken out of the bottom of the 'V' way, Just a pass with a 1/2" end mill.

    NOW with the carriage/saddle on the lathe's bed-ways it is actually supported by the rear flat-way, and the sides of the front 'V' way.

    i cannot tell what type of work this lathe had done, the existing oil and mess on it is not any more gritty than usual, so I cannot say it was a dedicated grinding machine.
    I probably just was worked to near-death without any maintenance such as lubrication. Thankfully the spindle bearing seem to be in good condition.



    DualValve
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails partscarraige.jpg  


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