Starting up an old EE
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    17
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default Starting up an old EE

    I have a Monarch 10EE that has not been run in at least 30 years. It has been in the family that long, stored in a garage. I believe it was taken out of service just before the family acquired it. I don't know much about it's use history, but it looks to be in fairly good shape.

    I want to get it running now, and it's future plan is just hobby use, probably not even 25 hours a year.

    It is 230V 3ph if I can trust the markings, and I will power it with a 7.5hp rotary converter

    Before starting it up I plan to do the following
    Clean the ways with WD40 and scotch brite pads (they are cleaning up nicely)
    Clean the lead screws as best I can
    Drain the oil from all the reservoirs (if I can find them all)
    Flush? - maybe kerosene as manual suggests but I don't like the possibility of contaminating new oil
    Refill reservoirs with DTE-24 and Mobil #2 (Mobil rep recommended these)
    Replace belts (may wait til after it is confirmed to run ok)
    Replace fuses as suggested in this forum

    I have a few questions that maybe somebody knowledgeable can advise me on:
    Should I try to clean the segments on the motor armatures? As seen in the photos, there is some oxidation and maybe other debris on the partially exposed armatures.
    Should anything else be done to the motors?
    Should I try to flush the oil reservoirs or will any crud stay put and slowly be removed with future oil changes?
    Any other "must do" items to protect the machine from start-up damage after sitting so long?

    I appreciate the input if you have any.

    Thanks.Attachment 311063Attachment 311064Attachment 311065Attachment 311062
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails lathe1a.jpg   lathe4.jpg   lathe2.jpg   lathe15.jpg   lathe13.jpg  


  2. Likes TheOldCar liked this post
  3. #2
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    124
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    12
    Likes (Received)
    52

    Default

    I'm not familiar with the round dial machines, I'm *guessing* this is a motor-generator machine?
    I'd definitely flush everything thoroughly. A little bit of residual kerosene isn't catastrophic to the oil, but it would be a good idea to flush and refill it, run it a while, then drain and replace the oil. It's likely it will have picked up more sludge. Also it is worthwhile checking the oil pumps and distribution. It is fairly common for these to plug up. I wouldn't go crazy with the scotch brite on the ways, keep some way oil around and coat the ways thinly before moving the carriage. If the apron pump is working it does this when you move the carriage but even a working pump takes a bit of motion to get oil up so an infrequently used machine will run on dry ways initially.

    You might consider taking the motor to a motor shop for cleanup. New brushes are probably worthwhile.

    What part of Indiana are you in? I'm down near Evansville ...

  4. Likes pecosbill liked this post
  5. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    17
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rabler View Post

    What part of Indiana are you in? I'm down near Evansville ...
    I am about a half hour north of Indy. Thanks for the input.

  6. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    17
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    Attaching more pics.lathe7.jpglathe12.jpglathe5.jpglathe14.jpg

  7. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Florida
    Posts
    170
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    10
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    Certainly try to get it running to ascertain what is or isn't wrong with it but undoubtedly after sitting doing nothing for all those years, my bet is a lot of the bearings have dried out and wont run properly.

  8. Likes mllud22, rimcanyon, pecosbill liked this post
  9. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    1,085
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    888
    Likes (Received)
    349

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    Certainly try to get it running to ascertain what is or isn't wrong with it but undoubtedly after sitting doing nothing for all those years, my bet is a lot of the bearings have dried out and wont run properly.

    The grease in my lead screw and feed rod bearings at the far right end was hard and crumbly after 20 years sitting unused. It appeared to be a white lithium grease..
    All the bearings that hold the carriage down had dry hard grease. This is a square dial lathe.
    Grease gets hard over time.
    Kerosene dissolves it but the bearings have to soak for a couple of days turning the bearings daily to loosen them helps.

    Oil flushes work for gearboxes but greasing bearings may require some disassembly of the carriage. Running it some to check things out should be ok but running dry bearings if not serviced will fail
    Also all the dial's thrust bearings and screws need oil.

  10. Likes pecosbill liked this post
  11. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Salinas, CA USA
    Posts
    4,544
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    410
    Likes (Received)
    322

    Default

    Running a machine that has been sitting 20+ years and with an unknown history does not sound like a good plan.

    This machine looks like it has not been abused, it should be restorable, and it would be worth the effort it takes to do it properly.

    Bearing grease hardens even on bearings sitting in boxes on shelves, so first item of business should be to evaluate the bearings, motor brushes, wiring, and clean the machine thoroughly. The paint has the appearance of being pressure washed at some time, so check for rust and water intrusion. Unfortunately that means disassembly and cleaning.

  12. Likes mllud22 liked this post
  13. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    17
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    Good point on the bearings, I'll have to check them. I suppose that means motor bearings too.
    Thanks.

  14. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    17
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    The paint has the appearance of being pressure washed at some time, so check for rust and water intrusion. Unfortunately that means disassembly and cleaning.
    It looks like the peeling paint is from age, seasonal thermal excursions in a garage, poor adhesion, etc, and not pressure washing. There is some surface rust from humidity and condensation but it seems to be cleaning up well without much trouble or any damage. Thanks for the input.

  15. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Salinas, CA USA
    Posts
    4,544
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    410
    Likes (Received)
    322

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pecosbill View Post
    It looks like the peeling paint is from age, seasonal thermal excursions in a garage, poor adhesion, etc, and not pressure washing. There is some surface rust from humidity and condensation but it seems to be cleaning up well without much trouble or any damage. Thanks for the input.
    That is good news. The finish below looks like the original finish. If you are inclined to restore the machine, you might consider scraping off the top coat carefully. Original finish 10EE's are very rare.

  16. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Arizona
    Posts
    3,952
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1029
    Likes (Received)
    584

    Default

    I agree with rimcanyon that you should do a thorough check over, drain, flush and replace all oil before attempting to run the machine. The spindle bearings are oil lubricated, so there should be no need to pull the spindle unless it feels or sounds bad when rotated by hand.

    As far as the motor/generator (MG) goes, I don't know that I would tear it apart right out of the chute. The insulation on old wiring can get very brittle and messing around with the wires inside the MG is asking for trouble. I would probably remove the exciter belt and see how the MG feels/sounds when rotated by hand. I would then start if briefly and let it coast down. It should take a while for it to coast to a stop. If the bearings are bad, it will stop within a few revolutions.

    Before attempting to start the MG, go through this checklist to make sure the machine is correctly wired for 220 operation. You'll probably need to make the indicated change to the motor starter wiring for it to operate from your rotary phase converter. Be aware that the MG must be rotating in the right direction (CCW when viewed from the tailstock end).
    I can't really tell from your photos, but it looks like your brushes are pretty well worn down. They should stick up nearly to the tops of the brush holders. Monarch can sell you a new set of brushes. Your spindle motor commutator looks pretty dark. It probably needs to be touched up with at least a brush seating stone, if not a commutator truing stone. Contact me via e-mail and I can send you some instructions for using the stones.

    By the way, your machine is a "round-dial" (so named for the shape of the dial on the QC gearbox), but it has a square-dial MG set and DC control panel. (This was not uncommon during the last six months or so of round-dial production.) The resistors in the upper-right corner of the DC control panel are a common failure point for this panel and I would replace them: Start up problem with m/G machine?


    Cal

  17. Likes bdrennon liked this post
  18. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    17
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    Thanks, this will be helpful.

  19. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    18,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    11426

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pecosbill View Post
    Thanks, this will be helpful.
    Couple of things:

    Round-Dial Spindle-bearing have separate front and rear cavity/reservoirs 2 0r 3 ounces of DTE Light each, full charge, with "limited" connectivity to the next-lower gearbox et al. Overflow and leakage, mostly "one-way" losser, not circulating.

    The front one has only the filler hole and the sight glass as openings you can USE.

    The rear one also has a cork-gasketed sheet steel plate that can be removed.

    All covered with photos, "right here, on PM".

    I chose to soak both in ATF in hopes of turning the sludge as settles out into a sort of goey mud so I could drag it out as much as possible AS a "mud" before gettting lighter kerosene into the cavities. Hope was to NOT splash old wear particles back to where they might get into the bearings before fresh, clean lube flushed them out. That may have been over cautious, but all it took was patience.

    As few ounces as the chambers hold, I then flushed twice with the final lube, after all done with lighter solvents.

    The sight glasses ARE the drains for these two.

    You'll want a two-prong adjustable "face" pin spanner to twist the sight glass bezel else a three prong Bergeon watch case tool. H-F has copies of both. Not high-grade, but both work OK.

    I used polycarbonate disks robbed from H-F mini-maglites for those first two sight glasses. The min-maglites still light-up with no disk!

    Two sizes of "O" ring picked out of a boxed kit:

    - one "O" ring bezel inner bore shoulder to outer edge of the lexan

    - one "O" ring lexan to inner shoulder of the sight glass bore.

    Thereafter, easy in and out, many openings and closings, pin wrench no longer a necessity.

    Monarch stock the sight glasses if you don't want to be buried in jagged-ended maglite clones!

  20. Likes pecosbill liked this post
  21. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Florida
    Posts
    170
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    10
    Likes (Received)
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Monarch stock the sight glasses if you don't want to be buried in jagged-ended maglite clones!
    They certainly do, at $55 a piece. I know, I just ordered 3.

  22. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    18,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    11426

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dinotom View Post
    They certainly do, at $55 a piece. I know, I just ordered 3.
    Well .. there's incentive.

    I had actually planned to swap at least a few of mine for a "pop-eyed" style sight glass MMC carries that's easier to read and can be inscrewed for easier draining and flushing.

    Most changes require making a new bezel. Or at least altering the OEM one.

    If a Machinist cannot figure that s**t out, one could perhaps ask a seamstress?
    Kinda button-shaped, ain't they?


  23. Likes Jim McIntyre liked this post
  24. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Salinas, CA USA
    Posts
    4,544
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    410
    Likes (Received)
    322

    Default

    Personally, I like using the stock cork gaskets on the sight glasses, and I am not a fan of agitating the crud and trying to flush it out of the sight glasses. It only takes 30 min. to remove the spindle, and then you can clean the headstock interior properly. Usually the oil drain lines from the front oil slinger and the rear oil slinger are plugged, and removing the spindle is the only way to clean them. With the spindle out, you can evaluate the rear spindle bearing and all the bearings associated with the tach and reverse gear train.

  25. Likes dinotom, 220swift, mllud22 liked this post
  26. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    17
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rimcanyon View Post
    It only takes 30 min. to remove the spindle, and then you can clean the headstock interior properly.
    That sounds like a good thing to do. Is spindle reassembly pretty straightforward, or is it a critical and complicated setup process? I would think replacing the spindle bearings at this point would make any concern about present condition and runout a non-issue? Correct? [I have not measured runout yet]

    Thanks for the input.

  27. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Colorful Colorado
    Posts
    1,015
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    34
    Likes (Received)
    59

    Default

    You can get all new way wipers from Monarch for about $125.

    I would pull the carriage gear box (its not hard, especially if you have a second person) and check it out and the oilers in there.

  28. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Missouri
    Posts
    1,085
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    888
    Likes (Received)
    349

    Default


    Quote
    You can get all new way wipers from Monarch for about $125.

    Maxim
    This is a round dial in this thread. I have a square dial.
    Is the material ( felt or rubber ) the same as original or is it upgraded to all felt wipers?

    I know the original rubber material would be obsolete and no longer made. But is it substituted with rubber?
    $125 would be worth the time and material spent cutting. I'm sure whatever they use would work well.

  29. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    18,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    11426

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mllud22 View Post

    Quote
    You can get all new way wipers from Monarch for about $125.

    Maxim
    This is a round dial in this thread. I have a square dial.
    Is the material ( felt or rubber ) the same as original or is it upgraded to all felt wipers?

    I know the original rubber material would be obsolete and no longer made. But is it substituted with rubber?
    $125 would be worth the time and material spent cutting. I'm sure whatever they use would work well.
    The MATERIALs for the "original" multilayer wipers is still made ... as sheet-goods. As-are newer-chemistry equivalents. Frisket knives still exist. And not-only. Another member had several sets of Cazenuve's ones CNC'ed.

    A person could duplicate the "composite" wiper function. Or improve upon it. Some have done, 10EE and not-only. See Doc's rebuilds for recent examples.

    Solid felt is only an "improvement" in that the lessened cost - or relative ease of working forgiving, flexible, materials encourages the righteous to REPLACE it more often!

    BEFORE it fossilizes with enough embedded trash ...to pretend to be a whetstone... attacking the very ways it was MEANT to protect.

    "PM thing". As-in "Preventive Maintenance"

    "hint, hint, hint..."



Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •